The Color Pie in Legacy

[DarthVicious]

A metagame will determine whether or not its worth playing something that objectively speaking seems narrow on its face - Swords to Plowshares. If your meta is full of aggro, not playing StP means you're either playing a strategy that doesn't care about creatures (combo, i.e.) or you're playing something equally effective. If your meta is full of Blue, maybe not maindecking hate is a shitty choice - but subjectively REB looks more narrow than a card like StP. The meta shifts towards Blue, yet instead of packing tech people call for bans. Suit up, goddammit; crush someone's skull in with 8-Blast RG Beats wearing a "To Feinstein" shirt. It's doable.

Ditto.

Also, making it harder to splash 1-2 colors to shore up the weaknesses of your main color would bring blue's innate weaknesses to the surface. I only have one idea for such a card however.

RR
Sorcery
Destroy target nonbasic land

Free instant speed effects should be kept to a minimum, regardless of color. One of those free spells just got banned, you know.

[Barook]

I was thinking to myself not too long ago whether or not Force of Will should exist in other colors...

I don't see why they couldn't make a less crappy Unmask that fills the same niche of instant disruption. Something like this:

Force of Ill
Instant
You may pay 1 life and exile a black card from your hand rather than pay Force of Ill’s mana cost.
Split second
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

[Vacrix]

Most cards people would suggest might just strengthen the U/x aggro control archetype. I say that wizards ought to make some good scry mechanics that are dependent on the number of basics in play.

I think we just need a few cards that improve some of the slower control decks so they can slow down the format. And honestly I think we need a psuedo-rootmaze that way the deck can be played with x8 copies of Root Maze. That would really fuck up decks playing too many fetchlands.

[Julian23]

8 copies of Root Maze? Playing 8 copies of a card that doesn't do anything when drawn in multipes doesn't sound very "Control" to me. That's a pretty all-in strategy like 8 copies of Blood Moon or something.

[Vacrix]

It punishes players for playing Fetchlands. For example, Polluted Delta turns into an active land 3 turns after its played. I'd say thats a slower format if 8 copies allows that to be a consistent first turn play. Then you play lands that already come into play tapped and when untapped can do crazy things.. and don't play fetchlands obviously. I'm not saying this is the godsend solution to fine tuning Legacy. Rather, I think aggro control has access to such good creatures right now that there is almost no reason at all to play a slower control deck. WotC tends to balance the format by balancing power-creep. The problem is that U/x aggro control always benefits most from those changes. Just look at Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Knight of the Reliquary... Different U/x variants are playing these cards. You can't really powercreep without aggro control getting a piece of the action. Rootmaze is just an example of a kind of card that U/x aggro control wouldn't ever play.


I really think we just need a solid, slower control in DTB. What happened to Countertop?

[Julian23]

Countertop is a solid choice right now, people are just slow to catch on to it now. The only real problem it has is Midrange Green Sun's Zenith.

[_erbs_]

I don't think creating new free cast cards would be the solution as it would only make the game faster and not solve the current problem which is colors are crossing the boundaries of what they should be doing. But im not closing the doors of such approach.

Red right now really really needs help in that department as i think its the most weakest color in legacy followed by green, white, then black, then the imba blue.

If you pause and re read snapcaster mage on what it does you'll see that its abilities are all non blue to begin with.
Flash => all colors can have this i think
GY Recursion => is more on the realm of green or black, but blue has recall, never the less coming from a creature ability i feel it should be a green or black card, if it was a spell then blue can have it.
Flashback => i think this should be red as recoup was originally a red card.

So giving those points above, blue has no business having such a card in its card pool, it should be green, black or red.

If wotc really has a vision or has a marketing plan on what is happening then i guess we just have to accept it and learn to dace with to the music. But if you think about it in a marketing point of view giving other colors good cards will open up other card interactions of the said color providing a more revenue for wotc part as people will buy the said expansion bec people will be excited to test the card.

Like what i've posted earlier i really hope wotc do fix or provide other colors good cards not sub par ones like what is happening now or provide complementary cards so that current cards can be used. Imagine the feeling of buying a booster pack opening it then getting a mythic rare that is sub par.., the feeling is not good, the feeling of getting a useful uncommon is much more worth it rare getting a sub par mythic rare.

[Rizso]

Always been a fan of free spells like Submerge or spells that works like Silvergill Adept. Spells that are not 100% free all the time or expensive all the time. As well as Echo and the pacts from future sight.

Some black and red cards!

Echo creatures!
R
3/1 haste, Trample
Echo 1R

B 2/1
Flying
Echo BB
When it enters battlefield Destroy target creature with converted mana cost equal or less to the amount of swamps your control.

Crazy free spells like submerg and pacts.

1BB
If you control a swamp and any opponents control or forest or a plain, you may be -this spell- without paying its mana cost.
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

Pact version Black
0
Can only played this spell if you control a swamp.
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 1B. If you don't, you lose the game.

Red pact
0
Can only be played if your control a mountain.
Deals 3 damage to target player or Creature.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 1R. If you don't, you lose the game

Oblivion Knight
1BB 3/3
Protection from white and Green.
Deathtouch.
Sacrifice a creature: Return Oblivion Knight from your Graveyard to Battlefield. Can only be used if you control a Swamps.

Strange there is still no black creature with both pro white and green.

Chaos Knight
1RR 3/3
Protection White and Blue and Haste.
Cannot be countered by spells or abilties.

There is alot of stuff they still can do with free spells that doesnt involve able to counter your opponents spells turn 0. IMO the pacts are fine for normal play, problem they dont care what lands you play with. Also the current pacts are to easy to be played in decks where you never have to pay the cost. Pacts shouldnt have to big effects and shouldnt cost to much to pay the next turn. Echo is an other abiltie wich is awesome to cheat on mana cost at cost of tempo. Problem with most echo creatures nowdays are to expensive even without echo. Just look at Bone Shredder and compare it to creatures like Gatekeepers of Malakir.

[ceustice]

I don't think the right way to fix this problem is to print more free spells. I do however think the color pie is very tilted. I, like many other legacy players, love my blue spells, but I do think the format and its players would benefit from the rest of the pie getting caught up. WotC just keeps hitting home run after home run with the blue cards as of late. (Mental Misstep, Snapcastger Mage, Delver of Secrets) Green Sun Zenith, and Stoneforge Mystic are steps in the right direction but if all colors kept getting cards at this quality this format could reach new heights.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think the right way to fix this problem is to print more free spells. I do however think the color pie is very tilted. I, like many other legacy players, love my blue spells, but I do think the format and its players would benefit from the rest of the pie getting caught up. WotC just keeps hitting home run after home run with the blue cards as of late. (Mental Misstep, Snapcastger Mage, Delver of Secrets) Green Sun Zenith, and Stoneforge Mystic are steps in the right direction but if all colors kept getting cards at this quality this format could reach new heights.

As much as I love Stoneforge Mystic and GSZ, they aren't steps in the right direction for the fact that they are costed incorrectly - at least inasmuch as they don't do what they do solely for the colors they exist in. SFM would still be SFM costed at WW, and GSZ (probably all the Zeniths) would have done well to require the X to be in the color of mana they represent. At least, if they were trying to give new spells with good functionality strictly to one color they would have done so.

But then again, unless there's a block of Magic that has mana-fixing on par with being able to play good fetches and (at the least) shocklands, they have to cost things aggressively if they really want effects to be aggressive. This is another factor to consider as to why older formats can't be given the same kind of consideration when dealing with card creation; lest they fill up Standard with goofy casting costs that make it a cumbersome place to play spells.

[Octopusman]

Printing good cards like stoneforge mystic just end up giving the blue Mage more toys.

The problem with the other colors is that good beaters still don't prevent you from getting destroyed by combo or even control. There really aren't enough tools in white, green and red to protect you if you can't disrupt the opponent. Free lightning bolts mean dick when they show and tell hive mind into play.
Artifacts can help but even then we still don't have good enough artifacts to help non-blue. By the time a red player casts thorn of amethyst it likely won't matter. The last time I played non-blue in a big tournament, I got belchered to death after I had 1 turn and I was holding a canonist. I had a tapped mountain and a 1/1 in play. What do you do? Hope you win the die roll? Desperately win game 1 so worst case scenario you can get to play first game 3?

They should print double colored mana cards in non-blue that advance your gameplan while simultaneously throwing a monkey wrench against combo/control. The only problem is that you're looking at needing at least two lands drops more often than not and that is slow.
Aside from Force of Will (which I love), more less obvious offenders are daze, spell snare, spell pierce, stifle. These can set the non-blue player very far behind.

As long as we're dreaming

Ass Goblin
R
Shroud
Blue instants and sorceries can not be played
1/1

Mythic Rare ;)

[Admiral_Arzar]

The problem with the other colors is that good beaters still don't prevent you from getting destroyed by combo or even control. There really aren't enough tools in white, green and red to protect you if you can't disrupt the opponent. Free lightning bolts mean dick when they show and tell hive mind into play.
Artifacts can help but even then we still don't have good enough artifacts to help non-blue. By the time a red player casts thorn of amethyst it likely won't matter. The last time I played non-blue in a big tournament, I got belchered to death after I had 1 turn and I was holding a canonist. I had a tapped mountain and a 1/1 in play. What do you do? Hope you win the die roll? Desperately win game 1 so worst case scenario you can get to play first game 3?

The issue with the "give aggro the tools it needs to beat combo" is that combo already loses to blue decks and sometimes black decks as well. If you make it lose to aggro (or even have a close matchup against it) there's no point to playing combo and we end up with an aggro vs. control format. I'm aware that there are plenty of players out there who would probably enjoy such a format, but I'm not among them. For every game where you get blown out by combo, there's a game where I have to play High Tide against RUG tempo and my opponent goes REB, Snapcaster, REB, FOW and blows ME out. People forget that aggro nowadays has many more anti-combo tools than it did a few years ago (Teeg, Thorn, Canonist, Trap, Surgical Extraction are all recent printings), while combo decks haven't gotten any faster in that same time frame.

[Octopusman]

The issue with the "give aggro the tools it needs to beat combo" is that combo already loses to blue decks and sometimes black decks as well. If you make it lose to aggro (or even have a close matchup against it) there's no point to playing combo and we end up with an aggro vs. control format. I'm aware that there are plenty of players out there who would probably enjoy such a format, but I'm not among them. For every game where you get blown out by combo, there's a game where I have to play High Tide against RUG tempo and my opponent goes REB, Snapcaster, REB, FOW and blows ME out. People forget that aggro nowadays has many more anti-combo tools than it did a few years ago (Teeg, Thorn, Canonist, Trap, Surgical Extraction are all recent printings), while combo decks haven't gotten any faster in that same time frame.

Right. There's not much of a grey area though, is there?
We're already very reliant on control elements to keep combo under control. At what first turn with no disruption win percentage is acceptable?
We know that winning during your opponents turn before you've had one is not allowed.

I think that combo is relatively fine with orim's chant/discard. I wouldn't mind combo getting a boost but I'm a blue player. If combo becomes stronger, blue needs to be strong and preset. Would people complain more about combo being strong or blue being everywhere because they get crushed otherwise?

I would love to see a priest of gix that has "your next spell cannot be countered" attached and maybe make him 1/1 :)

[Richard Cheese]

The issue with the "give aggro the tools it needs to beat combo" is that combo already loses to blue decks and sometimes black decks as well. If you make it lose to aggro (or even have a close matchup against it) there's no point to playing combo and we end up with an aggro vs. control format. I'm aware that there are plenty of players out there who would probably enjoy such a format, but I'm not among them. For every game where you get blown out by combo, there's a game where I have to play High Tide against RUG tempo and my opponent goes REB, Snapcaster, REB, FOW and blows ME out. People forget that aggro nowadays has many more anti-combo tools than it did a few years ago (Teeg, Thorn, Canonist, Trap, Surgical Extraction are all recent printings), while combo decks haven't gotten any faster in that same time frame.

I think the issue here is that non-blue aggro decks typically have something like 11-14% win percentage against combo. You just don't see things skewed that hard in the average aggro/control or control/combo matchup. If we're simplifying things to the 3-major archetype model, it's pretty clear that straight-up aggro is pretty disadvantaged lately. I think the issue at hand is that some players feel that this is not ok, and some do. Does the Legacy community really want straight aggro to be a viable strategy?

Personally I could probably live with aggro-control being the only aggro around, except that it's going to make the format less diverse, and to me that's the whole point of Legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think the issue here is that non-blue aggro decks typically have something like 11-14% win percentage against combo. You just don't see things skewed that hard in the average aggro/control or control/combo matchup. If we're simplifying things to the 3-major archetype model, it's pretty clear that straight-up aggro is pretty disadvantaged lately. I think the issue at hand is that some players feel that this is not ok, and some do. Does the Legacy community really want straight aggro to be a viable strategy?

Personally I could probably live with aggro-control being the only aggro around, except that it's going to make the format less diverse, and to me that's the whole point of Legacy.

I have personally found those numbers to be pretty inaccurate, as it's pretty easy to lose to fast aggro if you get a mediocre draw (especially with a slower combo deck like Spiral Tide). I recently got crushed by Goblins actually, due to keeping a mediocre hand game one and getting blown out by Surgical Extraction and a bad Spiral game two.

Part of the issue is that fast aggro has lost a lot of ground against blue decks recently whereas its combo matchup hasn't changed much. When your aggro deck has difficulty beating blue, there isn't too much reason to play aggro as you know your combo matchup isn't going to be good.

[Richard Cheese]

I have personally found those numbers to be pretty inaccurate, as it's pretty easy to lose to fast aggro if you get a mediocre draw (especially with a slower combo deck like Spiral Tide). I recently got crushed by Goblins actually, due to keeping a mediocre hand game one and getting blown out by Surgical Extraction and a bad Spiral game two.

Part of the issue is that fast aggro has lost a lot of ground against blue decks recently whereas its combo matchup hasn't changed much. When your aggro deck has difficulty beating blue, there isn't too much reason to play aggro as you know your combo matchup isn't going to be good.

Ok, what numbers would you guess TES/Zoo or Tide/Zoo at?

[Koby]

Ok, what numbers would you guess TES/Zoo or Tide/Zoo at?

1) TES vs Zoo (80/20) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
2) Tide vs Zoo (66/34) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
3) Spanish Inquisition vs Zoo (95/5) - depending on SI's topdecks

The quality of Zoo's SB also plays a role on how the matchups go. More REB help the Tide matchup, whereas more Canonist help against TES (if Zoo ever gets a 2nd turn).

Also, Combo comes in many forms. It's the fundamental turn that matters the most. Most aggro decks can race for a Turn 4 kill, but few can disrupt/win by Turn 3.

[Rizso]

Red right now really really needs help in that department as i think its the most weakest color in legacy followed by green, white, then black, then the imba blue.

I wouldnt really rank them like that but rather Blue > White > Green - Black > red. The diffrence how easy it is to splash between the colors is pretty huge.

Blue really no easy cards to splash, fow require your deck to be majority of blue and the best blue spells costs UU

White very easy color to splash where the most cheaper spells costs just 1 colored mana. Plow, paths, Stoneforge.

Green, very easy to splash or build your deck arround GSZ. Goyf, grip, Choke are just 1 colored mana.

Black, alot harder to splash best black spells / creatures cost multiple colored mana sources unless you are named Dark Confidant. A color of combo, where the most powerful cards are combo cards.

Red, very easy to splah their best spells costs just only 1 red mana, Lightning Bolt, Grim lavamancers and The Blasts. But thats pretty much all red got. Out of 2280+ Red spells there is about 5 spells you would ever splash red for outside of combo.

[Admiral_Arzar]

1) TES vs Zoo (80/20) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
2) Tide vs Zoo (66/34) - depending on the speed of Zoo.
3) Spanish Inquisition vs Zoo (95/5) - depending on SI's topdecks

The quality of Zoo's SB also plays a role on how the matchups go. More REB help the Tide matchup, whereas more Canonist help against TES (if Zoo ever gets a 2nd turn).

Also, Combo comes in many forms. It's the fundamental turn that matters the most. Most aggro decks can race for a Turn 4 kill, but few can disrupt/win by Turn 3.

The numbers you posted are mostly accurate preboard, but shift quite a bit depending on the Zoo sideboard and also variance. I.E. hatebear + REB will probably beat Tide assuming the Zoo player has a reasonable clock and Tide doesn't have the nuts. The exception would be Spanish Inquisition, which I would place at around 80/20 preboard (the 20% is the approximate fizzle percentage of PSI in my testing). Postboard it gets ugly if Zoo has Mindbreak Trap or Leyline, but otherwise SI cares little about board hate.

Going back to sideboard construction, I remember a friend of mine constructing a sideboard for Big Zoo that allowed him to go 5-0 against Hive Mind post-board. I have also lost to the same player while piloting TES because he's aware of how to board against combo correctly (which most Zoo players I have encountered are not). Modern Maverick builds tend to be much stronger against combo despite the slower clock, but they still have issues with very resilient combo (Tide).

[Richard Cheese]

So I think my point still stands: fast combo vs. aggro is still the most heavily skewed matchup, and while that's been the case for some time, the control and aggro/control matchups have gotten progressively worse with things like SFM/Batterskull, Delver, and Snapcaster. Plain old Aggro decks are just getting less viable, and some people see that as a significant loss for Legacy.