[Deck] U/R Delver

[Beatusnox]

Hello all,

Before the deck list or anything else, I would like to preface this by saying thank you to all of the people of this webstite who have helped shaped the basic shell, and given card suggestions to make this deck as strong as it is. Without you it would still be the random crap I thought of at 2 Am after work.

Special Thanks to Kich for agreeing to help with matchup analysis.
The original Deck list.

//Creatures
4 Delver of secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion clique

//Plansewalkers
2 Jace the Mind sculptor

//Instant
4 Lightning bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

//Instant/Sorcery(cards that can be changed amongst each other)
4 Ponder/Stifle(meta dependant)

//Lands
4 Volcanic island
4 Scaldng Tarn
6 Island
6 Mountains
4 Wasteland


This was the list I originally tested. After play testing and discussion on these boards, we have figured out a basic shell for the deck. These are the cards that given no budget concerns or lack of cards, that should appear in all versions of the deck.


//Creature: 11-12
4 Delver of Secrets
3-4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster mage

//Instant: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

//Lands: 8
4 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
//Core Total: 27-28 cards


This list here is the core to the deck whether or not you are playing a more aggro approach with more creatures, a control version with JTMS and force of will, or more burn with Price of progress and Chain Lightning.

Another thing that has come up through testing and has been discussed here is the mana base. I believe that a more basics approach is the better route, this is not yet proven and in fact arguably false. The two Mana Bases that are being considered right now are:

//Option one with variance on the fetches or basics.
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
4 Mountain
// Or Option 2 with less basics and a heavier Fetch Base With variance again on exact number or specific fetches
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain


Now this leaves a Large amount a deck space to building around your meta.

After assembling the core of the deck and the Mana Base, you are going to have a lot of room left over So down here I am going to make a list of 'goodstuffs' that can be added in the blank spots to make up the deck of your choice. One of the great things about the deck so far is that after the 'base' you have a lot of room to customize it to how you would like to play, at least until it is more thoroughly tested and proven.

Goodstuffs: This list will grow as more and more cards are proven in different builds if you suggest a card and it is not listed here, no disrespect intended, I just haven't had the chance to test it or add it to the thread yet.
First up Goblin Guide. This card is amazing in the more aggro based lists. A hasty 2/2 for with almost no drawback. The aggro it provides can be ridden to a victory if protected, or even be a sponge for removal before you drop Delver. Recommended for the Aggro Control, and Aggro-burn Variants.

Next we have Vendilion Clique. While many times this card does not see play in the main deck of many decks it is a power house card. A 3/1 for with flying, flash, and the ability to cycle either a card from your own hand, or a problematic card from an opponents hand. Recommended for the Control Builds only.

Not to be outdone we have Jace, The Mind Sculptor. I Do not think I need to describe the raw power of this card. As legacy players we know just how powerful the card is and just what kind of craziness it is capable of. Recommended for the Control Builds and Aggro-Control Builds. It is far far too slow for the Burn setups.

Continuing the Trend of good Bluestuffs we have Force of Will. While some would consider it a necessity, it is becoming more and more apparent that is not the case. In a more burn Centric Build it takes up slots that could be better filled. However, In Aggro-Control, Counter-Burn and Control Variants, it should be the first (or second after jace) card considered.

C-c-c-c-combo breaker time for a red card Price of Progress In reality this card should be the first red card considered to be added in the Burn variants. In the current meta Mana bases are getting greedier making this card more and more desirable. Recommended for the Burn, and Counter-Burn Variants.

Enough of the funny titles I'm not that creative Surgical Extraction. One of the most abusable cards with Snapcaster mage, the ability to use it once on a nasty card that your opponents use, and to then be able to flash it back is monstrous. In some of the decks that are popular they are very light on threats 2-4 different threats in the entire deck, Removing all copies of two of them, from one copy of the card is an amazing utility(this is the only non- or card on the list of goodstuffs. Recommended for the Mainboard of Control Variant and to be considered in the sideboard for ALL variants.

Chain Lightning. The burn spell of choice after Lightning Bolt and Price of Progress. Self Explanatory. (aka I dunno what else to say here) Recommended for the Burn and Counter-Burn Variants.

Daze. A Free Counterspell is always good. Recommended for the Control, Counter-Burn, and Aggro-Control Variants.

Magma Jet. A filter spell that also is a burn spell. This is a win win Situation. Recommended for the Burn, Counter-Burn and Aggro-Control Variants.

Ponder. A good filter spell or shuffle effect if needed. Recommended for the Control Variant, as magma jet is better for the burn, counter-burn and Aggro-Control Variant

Stifle. Great against storm and extremely greedy mana bases.

Spell Pierce. Another Control/aggro-control card. Also possibly the counter-burn builds. Weaker than daze the first time, stronger the second due to being cheaper to flash with snapcaster.

Spell Snare. Counters CMC 2. In the current Meta 2 costs are powerful, Counters opposing snapcasters and stops goyfs, confidants, Burning Wish, Tutors, etc etc. Just an insanely powerful card in the Control/Aggro-control, Possibly also in the counter-burn styles.

Repeal. Utility Bounce spell. Great for bouncing problematic small cards or even tokens. Card Draw is a plus, and can be draw a card for if it comes to it. Recommended for the Control and Aggro-Control Variants, until further testing proves it better elsewhere.

I will post a sample decklists shortly, I would like those who have suggested the different variants to post what they think would be a optimal list for the style they like, and I will post it here with Credit Given to Originators, Also Match Up analysis to Follow soon, More testing is being done before I post anything definitive in that field.

Control Variant Sample Decklist: Featuring more Basics Mana Base By Beatusnox

//Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

//Plansewalkers:2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Instant: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
2 Repeal

//Sorcery:3
3 Ponder

//Lands:20
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
3 Mountain
//Deck Total: 60


Counter-Burn Variant Thanks to Troopatropp Featuring the less basics more fetches mana base.


//Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer

//Instant/ Sorcery: 29
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Lands: 19
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
//Deck Total: 60


Burn Variant Thanks to Kich867 Featuring a Hybrid of both Mana bases

//Creatures: 10
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
3 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Magma Jet
3 Ponder
2 Chain of Vapor

//Lands: 20
4x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Arid Mesa
5x Mountain
3x Island

Remember that Sample lists are only samples. This is still a very new Archetype so the kinks are being worked out and optimal lists have not yet been established. It is just to give you a jumping post to start from, as this thread continues to grow the lists will become firmer and firmer. Outside of Playtesting, any tournament reports made of this deck(any variant), Will be posted and Credit Given to whoever it was, no matter how well you placed. Going over tournament reports that have mistakes that are pointed out helps others grow to avoid those mistakes and it helps designers of the deck try to find ways to shore up any holes and weaknesses either through main deck fixes or sideboard cards.



Well Placing Decklists: The lists here are proven to perform well in a competitive environment.

//First Place Starcity Games St. Louis Piloted by Andrew Shrout

//Creatures 14
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Instant: 21
2 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt

//Sorcery: 7
3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

//Lands:18
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island



//Second Place Starcity Games Invitational Piloted by Adam Prosak

//Creatures: 14
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

//Instant: 18
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
1 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Fire/Ice

//Sorcery: 9
3 Gitaxian Probes
2 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

//Lands: 19
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island


Both of these Lists were piloted through an extremely competitive meta. I will add more later have to get up in about 4 hours for work <_<
Thanks again for all the help to everyone.

[TkDodo]

Looks like a Standard Tempo list for me, except that you
.) left out the third color, which is not bad, because you get a much more stable mana base
.) therefore loose Goyf and Mongoose and replace them with Goblin Guide
.) have at least some things going for a lategame in the form of Jace

Now I don't think you can play the "stick a threat and then play the permission game with Wasteland, Stifle and Daze" if your threat happens to be Goblin Guide, because they will just draw into more lands quicker. Maybe you just need a little more burn to give you more reach to finish them off quicker, because you have no way of beating Goyf or KotR once they resolve. So your gameplan should be to not let that happen by delaying their strategy and killing them before that happens, which makes you actually a tempo deck. I don't think you can play control without a way to beat creatures with toughness 4 or greater.

Also, I don't get why you would play 24 (twenty four!) lands. That's the amount of lands a pure control deck with 4 Jace and other mana intensive threats would play. You are two-colors only and have a lot of basics, so you can't get color screwed that often. Oh and Wasteland are a must in such a deck btw. The color issue you mentioned can be neglected completely. It's just 4 colorless sources in a two color deck. People play 21 lands in a deck that needs BB, G and UU and they can support 4 Wastelands as well. You also need more fetches, at least 8 to make Brainstorm more effective and to make sure you don't flood too often. I don't think that you ever want more than 4 lands in play, but with your mana base, if you don't kill them early, you will wind up with way too many lands. I would play something like that:

[21 Lands]

4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
2 Mountain


That gives you at least 3 more spots for things like Fire/Ice or Chain Lightning or such.

[troopatroop]

Price of Progress + Snapcaster Mage is U/R is Legacy right now. Delver too obv, but I like the "burn" approach.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Mountain

Hasn't really let me down yet. I can beat Midrange easily with PoP + Snappy, and Aggro with Burn + Grim. With everyone looking at Red, wondering where the 2 drop is, look no further. Combo is good against me with this build, but I figure to hell with it. It's not worth running Force of Will over Fireblast in this deck, and our clock is respectable. It's really remarkable how good this decks' turn 4's and 5's are. With Counterbalance almost completely out of the picture, and with Tempo decks sporting Delver, Burn is as good as it's ever been. Board for Combo, pray you beat randomness, and Price good decks for the win. It's strangely brutal...

[Beatusnox]

I am considering changing the title to U/R Snapcaster and listing both the more burn centric and control centric versions. What are you guys opinions on that? Also I agree that we are land heavy but disagree on more fetces i understand they make brainsorm better but strength against moons and stifles is a huge key(at least in my area) maybe in the main post will put the both versions for meta variance?

[Antonius]

perhaps you could find the middle road? Light 'em up burn + Force of Will & Stifle? Cutting Daze seems acceptable, given that its a nonbo with your snatch master. You should definitely run Fire/Ice. Also, some number of Magma Jets in exchange for some number of Ponders might be hot.

[Kich867]

That's interesting, I actually just a few nights ago built a very similar list after a friend pointed out that the White in my R/W/U list wasn't doing much for me.

//Creatures: 10
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells: 28
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Magma Jet

22 Land

That may or may not be 100% accurate, I'm just doing it off memory..

After some play testing, it basically boiled down to this: Prioritize countering their threats over burning them, burn things that will be big later early on, save burns for things that aren't that big and won't grow later, use burns EOT.

I was somewhat astonished to find out that Chain Lightning was not in fact an instant (legit didn't know that until I built the deck haha).

My list is a very Counter-burn style list, but I'm quite influenced by the way more burn oriented lists that I'm seeing. I'd recommend running fewer duals and more basics in the PoP lists, if you don't run counterspell and you have no double color requirements (which is true) there seems to be no reason not to run more basics and just fetch as necessary for them.

If I had to run it, I'd run something like Troopatroop's list, get some more basics in there, and try and fit 2-3 Magma Jet's somewhere. I'd probably drop Ponder's for them. I'd rather have instant speed filter that does damage, ponder would be grabbing burn's anyways. In my experience with the list I posted, Magma Jet was phenomenal every time I cast it. I was excited to see it and extensively used it with a Brainstorm follow-up. Nothing quite like EOT turn 3 Magma Jet -> bottom deck 2 cards you don't want > brainstorm. It gives you the opportunity to dig hard and a little more precision over what's on top of your deck (not a fan of shuffling with Ponder, we already have enough shuffle from fetches).

I agree that wastelands seem iffy, I'd rather win than slow them down. Wastelands slow down an otherwise very fast deck--it would hurt to not be able to sac double mountains to fireblast because we have a wasteland on the table.

Troopatroop, do you just play your list super aggressively? Do you burn creatures at all or just to the dome?


PS -- Troopatroop am I just horribly dumb or is the list you posted only 51 cards, I count 35 spells and 16 lands. Given that's the case, just run a 3/3 split of Magma Jet and Ponder, then it's just an absurd win/win.


On a side-note, can we please call this deck Snap-Crackle-Pop (Snapcaster, Lightning Bolt / Chain Lightning, Price of Progress)? It seems way too fitting.

--- Edit:

This is the list inspired by troopa that I just made:
//Creatures: 10
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells: 30
4x Brainstorm
3x Fireblast
4x Price of Progress
3x Spell Pierce
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Magma Jet
3x Ponder
2x Chain of Vapor (could be Echoing Truth as well)

20x Land (With such a low curve I saw no reason to run 22 lands)

Maindeck bounce seemed viable, I'm not sure which I'd run, probably Echoing Truth just for the sheer utility of it. It hoses lots of token generation, multiple goyfs / delvers, enchantments and artifacts mainboard that would give us problems like Energy Field.

[Beatusnox]

Right now i am on my phone so its a pain to edit the op tomorrow when I get out of work I should be able to use a computer fix a more comprehensive op. I think ponder for magma jet. Daze for fire/ice cut wastelands for 4 more fetches.

For a sideboard we could transform into either more control or more burn for matchups the control is not needed. Using price of progress and chain lightning to burn harder. While if more control is needed bring in spell pierce or snare and maybe flusterstorm depending on meta. Definitel surgical xtractions and tormods.

[diego1985]

I try a lot of solutions with a wasteland...

For me a better solution is
3 waste for a 18 land
4 waste for a 20 land

Anyway i prefer PoP because is synergic with a pyro, lavamcer and snapcaster. Waste is synergic only with a lavamancer... For mana denial i preferer a stifle

[Angelteg]

Wait til you all wake up (literally. Its almost midnight) and see Demonheart Chimera. Top of the curve at 3, but I think it could be pretty darn good as a 2 of.

[Qtc]

So yeah even though I really do like my recent change to a more U/R Burn type deck like I posted before, I have to say that this creature is pretty damn good.
I think it's totally worth adjusting U/R delver to complement this creature as much as it can.. So how do you guys think this creature can best be utilized? I'm thinking about something like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Demonheart Chimera

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


You want to run as much instants and sorceries for all 3 creatures so that really makes me like Gitaxian Probe in this deck.

Wait til you all wake up (literally. Its almost midnight) and see Demonheart Chimera. Top of the curve at 3, but I think it could be pretty darn good as a 2 of.

Just like Canadian Thresh you'll only need one maybe two lands in your opener to function. The Brainstorms, Ponders and Probe's will make you hit your land drops so I think it's safe to up the Chimera count to 4. We're also a 2 color deck so we can't get color screwed from waste.
Thoughts?

[Angelteg]

I've said it before, I really think that if you're going to run a lot of non basics and not run price of progress, you should just play RUG.

In my meta, I like being able to play a list with 3 basic islands and 3 basic mountains. I'm sure its meta dependant, but if I have a price of progress and a counter in my hand on turn 4, I'm winning that game.

I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster.

[Heresy]

I've said it before, I really think that if you're going to run a lot of non basics and not run price of progress, you should just play RUG.

In my meta, I like being able to play a list with 3 basic islands and 3 basic mountains. I'm sure its meta dependant, but if I have a price of progress and a counter in my hand on turn 4, I'm winning that game.

I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster.

I've been running a list with lot of basics (6 like you) for a long time, but with testing, I feel like it's overdoing it. Sometimes you're screwing yourself opening with a mountain and not having daze active. I now run 2 island 2 mountain 10 fetches and 4 volcanic and it's really smooth (with 2 pop main).

[JMLL]

...
4 Demonheart Chimera

In my opinion, a card that is in Lightning range and that doesn't have haste is not worth a spot in these lists. I may be wrong, but if it was flying + haste instead of flying + trample, I could think about it. For me, although it hits hard, it hits late, and there are already a lot of answers to it, specially if you give your opponent the chance to untap.
With the maindeck graveyard hate we see these days in the form of Deathrite Shaman, this Chimera doesn't fit into UR in Legacy.

[Heresy]

In my opinion, a card that is in Lightning range and that doesn't have haste is not worth a spot in these lists. I may be wrong, but if it was flying + haste instead of flying + trample, I could think about it. For me, although it hits hard, it hits late, and there are already a lot of answers to it, specially if you give your opponent the chance to untap.
With the maindeck graveyard hate we see these days in the form of Deathrite Shaman, this Chimera doesn't fit into UR in Legacy.

Thing is, all of our critters are in Bolt range and without haste (except GG) : Delver, YP, Grim, Snapcaster and Nivmagus, but they see play. This is why I don't think it's a valid argument against Demonheart Chimera. Also, Grim and Snapcaster are still ''core'' cards even in the face of Deathrite.dec, so I don't see why Demonheart would not be considered for this reason too, since Grim and Snapcaster are arguably weaker to Deathrite.

I'm going to test something with 4 delver, 4 pyromancer 3 chimera and 2 snapcaster.

I like where you're going with this suite. They all have considerable presence and impact whether in the form of evasive beating, enter the battlefield goodness or being a token factory.

[diego1985]

This evening i try 3 different versions of deck and i loss 0-3 0-3 0-3 vs goblin... My lists

A)
// Deck: UR Delver (60)

// Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire // Ice (Fire)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce

// Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

B)-2 pop +chimera

C) -2POP -2spell pierce -3fatch
+4stifle +3wasteland

For me a ploblems are a few removal and a lot of game were i m whitout cads in hand.... Help

[KobeBryan]

This evening i try 3 different versions of deck and i loss 0-3 0-3 0-3 vs goblin... My lists

A)
// Deck: UR Delver (60)

// Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire // Ice (Fire)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce

// Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

B)-2 pop +chimera

C) -2POP -2spell pierce -3fatch
+4stifle +3wasteland

For me a ploblems are a few removal and a lot of game were i m whitout cads in hand.... Help

I have tested reforge the souls. It does help a lot when you are out of cards in hand. Sure if gives them more cards, but you usually have fewer cards in hand than your opponent. You would usually net 6 new cards while they only net like 3-4

Helps with combo too when they are crafting their hand and you reforge and make them get rid of their sculpted hand.

[.Ix]

I have tested reforge the souls. It does help a lot when you are out of cards in hand. Sure if gives them more cards, but you usually have fewer cards in hand than your opponent. You would usually net 6 new cards while they only net like 3-4

Helps with combo too when they are crafting their hand and you reforge and make them get rid of their sculpted hand.

This is exactly what I have found as well. And with tons of free and one-mana spells, it doesn't matter too much if they get new cards because you can typically either deal the last few points of damage, or answer their next turn without having to tap mana and kill them anyway. Pretty interesting. Casting Reforge the Soul for 5 mana has not been terrible, too, and Pyrokinesis can pitch Reforge if you really have no way to cast it.

[diego1985]

i would try a guttersnipe. for you is a good solution?

[beez]

If Guttersnipe cost 2cc rather than 3cc he would be much more of a boss.

[diego1985]

costo 3 whit lightining botl and chain lightning is very synergic...