I didn't know you couldn't sac volcanic islands to fireblast.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Yes you canOriginally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
There is no knowledge that it not power.
I never intend to cast fireblast in a game, period. But it's nice to have one in hand to me because I've had a few instances where I've wanted to eat my nonbasics so price wouldn't hit me as hard. You can get sly with it and tap two volcanics, leave two red floating, sac them to fireblast, then use the two red to play price.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that 4 Volcs were required in order to consistently cast Fireblast. I don't think the argument against a full playset of Volcs is that it hurts you too much with Price of Progress. The argument against it is that the more you run, the less flexibility you have in playing around Wasteland.
If I draw a fetch instead of a Volc, I have options. If not, I have to suck it up and play into Wasteland whether I like it or not. By running 3 Volcs, you have enough in your deck that you can play into Wasteland and still have redundancy if you need it, but you're not as likely to draw multiples when you don't want them.
I think 2 Volcs is too few to be ideal, but 3 is probably just right. 4 is alright, but you lose some flexibility there, I think.
just wondering if anyone considered Mind Bomb I was thinking if it would help
Just sounds like a bad Chain Lightning. I could see it in a Burn version, but the best part about the card is that it pitches to FoW, and that build doesn't play Force. Cute idea, but it's a Lava Spike at best, really.
Also, why only play 2 Grim Lavamancer? That guy is like, my MVP against ALOT. 3x is for teh pros, imo.
Also!, Hammer of Bogardan, meet Sulfuric Vortex. Yeaaaaaaaaaaah xD
I think if you wanted more burn, you'd be better off running more burn.
Speaking of which, my list is way more burn-oriented than most in this thread. So I'm wondering if it's even worth it to put counters in the board (don't have FoW, nor the blue count to support it right now). I was going to run 4 Pierce and 2-3 of something, Negate, Mindbreak, Flusterstorm, Spellstutter. All I'm really worried about is TES/ANT/Belcher, since the amount of burn I pack gives me a pretty consistent 4-5 turn clock. Was hoping some more experienced blue and/or combo players could chime in on which counters work best, how many counters you'd need to reasonably expect to have a decent chance vs. storm combo, etc.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
When I mentioned Hammer I was actually suggesting Punishing Fire. I'm thinking it could be a replacement for Fireblast as some people here expressed their distaste for a "sac two mountains" finisher. Grim Lavamancer eats removal like a champ but with Punishing Fire you can pick up trouble creatures without wasting your bolts or Snapcaster targets. Manabase will be an issue though.
I think they fulfill two totally different roles. I mean yes, they're both finishers, but Fireblast is a finisher for a mana light, threat dense, extremely fast deck that never wants to see the late game.
Punishing Fire requires you to dilute your manabase, and while it provides inevitablity, it's much slower, making it more appropriate in a midrange strategy. I just don't think it belongs here at all, except perhaps in the very controlling versions of this deck that run JTMS and the like.
Also, Grove of the Burnwillows is a very bad idea. What Zilla said.
Boarding with the Burn version, I'd play 4x Daze maindeck and 2-3 Spell Pierce SB.
Pyrostatic Pillar also fits your needs, being a "tap out trump".
There are 2 things that make me wonder about the whole Punishing Fire thing: First it's very mana intense for just some points of damage, and second how to grab Groove of the brunwillows constently without playing Knights? Also postboard it's a bad idea when playing sulfuric vortex.
I've been playtesting a lot vs. ANT lately. I play a very balanced list between Burn and counter, including 2 daze, 3 spell snare and 4 FoW. First of all daze won't win you the game at all, cause like in other matchups it's only good in the first 1-2 turns. Second of all, you usually loose your counter due to silence or duress unless you can hide it in a brainstorm, but even if, you need to draw again... so sometimes multiple of any of them set the game. Even a single spell snare can make the difference when cast at the right time to a cabal ritual or infernal tutor. Sometimes my testing partner conceded after one counter. Drawing into multiple counters is rather difficult since you need to pressure still. So I would say the MU is about 50/50 to 40/60, while improoved after SB, especially when you make a turn 2 surgical extraction into snapcaster flashback combo.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
I think the main attraction of this deck, for me, is the fact you can teach your opponent a lesson in a hurry while still giving their deck the finger via so many efficient counters. I've had little to no success with a burn-centered deck especially against the really popular mid-range/control decks that get shuffled up commonly. If you wanted to play just straight burn, that archetype is here, will be here after your bones are dust and your children are paying a mortgage most likely. I can't see a budget deck without forces really working. This deck already penalizes itself by not being able to play tarmogoyf and must instead concentrate on negating the opponent's strategy while turning them into charcoal. Last game I played, I'm guessing this was team america, I was facing down both a tarmogoyf and a tombstalker by turn 4. How can straight burn stop something like that? The most you can hope to pump out at someone per turn at that point in the game is maybe 6-12, depending on how hard price is hitting. It would have been a totally different game if I was holding a spell snare, a brainstorm and a FoW in my opener. Also bopper, about daze. Yeah the ONLY time I ever want to see that card is in my opening hand. I'll brainstorm/ponder it away every chance I get because it has no other benefit to me after turn 3 except for being pitchable to force.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
I have been doing a little testing lately:
Here is what I have been using (and please, there are reasons to try stuff out, so don't freak out).
19 Land
1 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Flooded Strand
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Island
3 x Mountain
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
~~~ OK so I took a slightly different route as off color Fetches early don't give up info as to what your playing, they hurt less if they meet with a Surgical Extraction or Extirpate, etc. I also think that Basics win games and 9 mana producing lands is suffecient for the deck. I also like the utility of the Wastelands as I hate getting set back by a Maze of Ith, etc.
14 Creatures
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Goblin Guide
2 x Grim Lavamancer
~~~ I have found 14 Creatures working so far, I also tried Vendilion Clique and differnt numbers of the creatures I have listed now. I don't find Grim Lavamancer warrants more than 2 in the deck, although if you were playing more to the "Burn" aspect then it might.
Spells
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Daze
2 x Fire/Ice
4 x Force of Will
2 x Gitaxian Probe
2 x Ponder
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Chain Lightning
2 x Fireblast
4 x Lightning Bolt
~~~ Like I said, I am not running towards the more "Burn" style of the deck, so 3 Chain Lightnings works for me. I also like the diversity of spells better than having 4-offs of what some consider the best spells. Spell Pierce as also trested (and a couple other spells) but I find Spell Snare better in regard to that discussion, etc.
Sideboard
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Hydroblast
3 x Submerge
2 x Pyroblast
3 x Smash to Smithereens
2 x Price of Progress
~~~ Again I know that many advocate for 3x Price of Progress (or more) and to have them Maindeck; but I don't find that fits my meta. Same goes for the other card choices in my SB.
OK, so now to where I am going in the discussion.
VS Mono-Black (Yes it is out there still) Pox, Control, etc... the deck actually does well. No exact % from me; but I am winning most matches even if it is sometimes a bit lucky.
VS Merfolk (because they most certain are still one of the Police decks for Legacy), it has enough early gas to get creatures home and burn out their side of the aggro to win games. Again no exact % but I am winning more matches than I am losing.
VS U/W Stoneblade (and some other U/W varient decks) If I hit quickly and don't allow them to get stabilized I win. SB is key here and being able to remove key cards with Surgical Extraction can be game winning.
VS Combo the opening hand is key, Mulliganing correctly is what works.
And that actually brings me to a very very important point. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the importance of the opener. I 100% support that person as this deck can win/lose based on your opener big time; Especially if you know what your facing. I have been honing my deck to meet with my meta and that is the other important point. Look what is most popular and gear up towards it; but also look at what decks handle what is popular and also gear toward them. My meta is seeing more Canadian Thresh and I really do need to practice more vs that match-up and the mirror. I suck vs ANT but it seams like I can't pull a FoW on an Opener vs Combo, so my hand is often dictating my potential vs the deck (and I don't see it that often - yet).
I appreciate all the discussion that you guys have had in here, it has helped me a lot. I don't find this deck difficult to pilot; but practice and discussion really do help. Now I would love to see and hear what others are using and how they are doing vs certain decks.
PS -- Side note. Best finish (for a match BTW) was a Brainstorm that got me another Brainstorm. Cracked a Fetch to shuffle and Brainstorm again that got me a Ponder. Tapped my second V-Island for the Ponder and viewed pure crap so I shuffled it away and drew a Fireblast, Sacrificed it for the Win. Pure Luck and I was done if he got another turn, but it shows the potential of what insane digging power can do for you.
Thanks again for all the discussion and comments.
Are the wastelands there to fight Maze of ith?
How have the probes been for you?
I'm assuming the POP in the board is meta call however 2 mana for 4 damage even if they only have 2 non basics is good and if they have more it's a game winner.
I like the 2 lavamancer plan.
As for the Mana base would you not rather go down to 1 or 2 islands and add more fetch effects in there to help with all the library manipulation you run?
I would like to see a 3rd ponder. Those cards can be the difference between an mull and keep (I run the full 8 but am really starting to think about going down to 7 and 2 lavamancer to fit in 2 fireblast)
See I'm basically looking at it from the opposite perspective. If you're playing the "counter critical spells and use burn to keep your guys connecting" game, then why not just add green and run Goyfs? Burning small guys and countering big ones to connect with a Goblin Guide just doesn't make any sense to me. Also like I said, a more burn-centric list has a much faster clock. If someone playing TA drops a Goyf and a Tombstalker on turn four, I likely don't care because they should be well within burn range at that point.
Don't get me wrong, I know I'm probably going to drop game one to combo most of the time, but I've been playing aggro since forever so I guess I'm just used to that. Poor excuse I know, but honestly I don't see combo as a big enough component of the meta right now to worry about it. If the general consensus is that I'd have to devote 8-10 sideboard slots to beating it, and still lose to the occasional nut draw, then I may not run any counters at all, and use that space to shore up my other matches. You'll notice I purposefully haven't posted my list, because I'm well aware that it's much closer in play style to mono-red burn, but I thought this thread would be the best place to ask that particular question.
@troopatroop: I thought about Pyrostatic Pillar, just not sure how good it is against combo, what other matchups it has relevance in. Elves for sure, but what else?
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Wasteland is for Maze as well as other things; Like - Landstalling, even if that is a little situational, etc.
I am used to using Peek so casting the Gitaxian Probes as a Sorcery sort of pisses me off a little; but having the option to use pain to cast it is very nice and leaves mana for other things.
I am good with 6 diggers, and I truely believe that ponder does not even warrant a 3rd spot for me. But subtel changes in the deck can make it run differently depending on your own play style as well. I do think that I would take a 3rd Grim over a 3rd ponder though.
OK, now here is a question for you guys.
T1 Delver
T2 Standstill
I was thinking that this might be a really good spot to run 4x standstill as the umbrealla would be a great place to get the Delver active, and at the very least your into 3 new cards. Thoughts?
I've got a few mint Scrublands for trade... I get the feeling you might be interested in them ;)
I've also been looking alot into Standstill, but in a RUG build with Delver/Nacatl/Grim + Goyf. It's more Fishy in nature, so more annoying, and less to the throat. Standstill itself is a very good card, one being underused atm, imo. Delver into Standstill is a great play, but it might be better in U/w.
I can't tell if people are going along with his sarcasm this hard or they're serious when responding to him about the volcanic islands..
The concept is already being discussed here. I think it takes the deck in a significantly different enough direction to warrant a separate discussion.
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