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Thread: [Deck] U/R Delver

  1. #41

    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatusnox View Post
    If you cannot counter the fatty you are going to have to double up Lavamancer AND bolt. Also, If you are trying a more tempo/thresh build, I would recommend trying stifles. Will Post more of my testing results tomorrow night, Have to wake up early for work. Good night Sourcers.
    Oops forgot the 4x stifle in the md. And you are right...a resolved fatty is extremely hard to remove. Though fire ice helps a lot in tapping it down for tempo

  2. #42

    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    Quote Originally Posted by yutang View Post
    Oops forgot the 4x stifle in the md. And you are right...a resolved fatty is extremely hard to remove. Though fire ice helps a lot in tapping it down for tempo

    Who needs sleep before work? lol

    Anywho,

    To be honest, the reason that I transition from the Tempo build I had to a more Aggro-Control was issues with fatties. However, The addition of JTMS helps with this extremely. Most of their beaters do not have haste, which allows you to bounce whatever problematic creature they play. While it is not ideal, it does give you an out to draw into another counter to prevent them from playing it again. Another thing you can do, if they try to GSZ for 0 you can always (if on the play) daze it. Sometimes keeping them off of that Dryad arbor is huge.
    Belcher
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    When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
    There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
    Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
    You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
    Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
    Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
    Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
    Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
    Only time will tell

  3. #43

    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    Hmm though I don't think Jace fits into the Thresh style version (for pretty much the same reason it doesn't fit in normal Thresh). There just aren't enough lands to support him and not enough to protect him. He belongs in a control shell.

    If bounce is what is required - old school Rushing River as a quick 2 for 1 or even Unsummon could be used. Though I reckon Fire/Ice is more flexible than either of these options

  4. #44
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    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    This deck won our local legacy tourney last time.

    1. Sija: Kaarle Tukia (UR Burn)

    Main Deck

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Goblin Guide

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lavaspike
    4 Fire // Ice
    4 Fireblast
    2 Searing Blaze
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Brainstorm

    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Mountain
    2 Wooded Foothills
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Arid Mesa

    Sideboard:

    2 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Spell Pierce
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Searing Blaze
    3 Smash to Smithereens

    Top4 decks can be found here: http://www.poromagia.com/index.php?p...e&articleid=82
    Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one

  5. #45

    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    I'm surprised this deck isn't getting more discussion since it won the last SCG Open:

    UR Burn by Andrew Shrout

    I'm actually pretty excited that some recent developments have made UR Counter-Burn viable FINALLY.

    I'm wondering if goblin guide is the best we have. 2/2 haste is good, but I don't like the draw back. Is there anything better?

    Any thoughts on adding Fire/Ice in the deck?
    "There are some who call me...Tim"

  6. #46

    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    First time seeing this thread. Yep that deck belongs here and not to Blue Sligh thread.

    Give it some time and the deck might become big like RUG/Reanimator. I remember it took 2 SCG top8s from Kyle Kloster before Jin-Gitaxias got the nod in Reanimator and it also took months before the deck became tier 1 but look at where it is now.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinSettler View Post
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  7. #47

    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    I've posted this everywhere, so I'm sorry if you've seen this already, but I top 4ed and Doug McKay top 8ed the December 3rd Jupiter Games NELC with UR Snapcaster Decks.

    My list is here:

    Main deck:
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    2 Dismember
    4 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Preordain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Daze
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland
    4 Volcanic Island
    Sideboard:
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Shattering Spree
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Submerge


    And you can check out Jupitergames.net for my tournament report and the top 8 decklists.

  8. #48
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    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    Anybody testing the SCG list? I played an exact copy yesterday at our local tournament (11 players) and went 3-1, being 2nd after swiss. My only loss was 0-2 against Canadian Thresh with 2-0 against MUD and NicFit, 2-1 against Belcher.

    This deck is amazing and incredible fun to play. Nonetheless, some of my conclusions so far:
    -you canŽt beat a good aggro-control player. 2 Goyf stalling the game and some well-placed counters was all the Can Thresh guy needed to completely wreck my gameplan. Even though PoP is THE card in this matchup, it is a perfect target for opposing Spell Snares which kinda sucks.
    -I GUESS you need the fourth Snapcaster. I had only one single Snappy in 10 games played and there it was only win-more. The interaction between Fireblast, Force of Will and Snapcaster sucks (obv).
    -What do you guys think about Blood Moon or Back to Basics from the side? Right now, my meta (and I guess yours, too) is flooded with unstable manabases and Blood Moon could really blow them out. Any thoughts?
    -Looks like IŽll give it another try this upcoming sunday at a ~30 ppl tournament. Hope to get some more results and conclusions...

  9. #49
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    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    Quote Originally Posted by supa_tim View Post
    I'm wondering if goblin guide is the best we have. 2/2 haste is good, but I don't like the draw back. Is there anything better?

    Any thoughts on adding Fire/Ice in the deck?
    Well, the drawback of goblin guide has actually some synergy with PoP. I just believe it's a bad topdeck in mid-lategame. I've seen lists with Vendillion Clique instead but you can't push damage through fast with it. So maybe -2 GG, +1 Snapcaster, +1 PoP/Ponder/FoW....

    I've also thought of Fire/Ice and Dismember, but the deck doesn't need that. Let goyf beat you or chump block with Snapcaster, while flashbacking a bolt or lightning^^
    Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!

  10. #50
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    Re: U/R Aggro-Control

    Quote Originally Posted by DerFern View Post
    -What do you guys think about Blood Moon or Back to Basics from the side? Right now, my meta (and I guess yours, too) is flooded with unstable manabases and Blood Moon could really blow them out. Any thoughts?
    .
    I played 2 Blood moon in the side at GP Amsterdam (5-2-1 then drop) and they were really good. I brought them in many times. I remember at least three matches against Team America were the Moon was (of course) gamebreaking. Afterwards i can say that BM felt like one of the strongest cards in my 75.

    For me the reason to pick up this deck again would be Blood Moon ( and Phyrexian Dreadnought, of course)

    best regards,

    bob

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Moved to Established, since this deck has made Top 8 at the last two SCG Opens.

  12. #52
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I've been testing this list to good results lately:


    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Mountain
    1 Island

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Grim Lavamancer

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    2 Fireblast

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Daze

    SB:
    3 Force of Will
    3 Submerge
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    3 Smash to Smithereens
    3 Surgical Extraction


    A few observations:

    1. I tested Snapcaster, and I know this will be anathema to a lot of you, but I just don't like it here. The deck is running 18 lands and never wants to see the late game. It's vulnerable to REB and Spell Snare. Every single time I draw it I wish it was a Lightning Bolt, so I just put Rift Bolts in that slot. I can see how he might make sense in a build that needs a higher blue count to support MD Force of Will, but in my build he just feels subpar.

    2. FoW in the side. I tested it in the maindeck (with Snapcasters) and I was rarely happy with it. I was almost always pitching cards I actually needed to seal the deal, like Delver or Snapcaster or even Brainstorm. Burn plays a very tight game. It can win almost always by turn 4, but it needs every card to do it. The card disadvantage from FoW just ends up costing you a lot of games by giving your opponent the extra turn they need to stabilize. It's still great against combo (obviously), so I moved it to the board.

    3. Someone questioned whether Goblin Guide was the best choice for this slot. It definitely is. It's one of the best cards in the deck, and you almost always want to see them in multiples. In most cases, it doesn't matter how many lands they have in their hand, because they'll be dead before they can play them. Honestly, Guide's "disadvantage" has actually been a real boon in many games; knowing what your opponent is about to draw can give you very important information about what you want to play and when.

    4. Someone was saying the RUG Tempo matchup was very difficult. I haven't tested a huge amount of games against it, but it hasn't been that difficult for me. Submerge in response to a fetch is amazing against Goyf, and you can race every other threat in their deck. They're very threat light and you're very threat dense. If you're careful about when and what you fetch to avoid getting blown out by Stifle/Waste, and play very aggressively, you should do okay.

    5. This probably goes without saying, but Smash to Smithereens is an amazing answer to Batterskull.

    6. Delver is stupid.

  13. #53

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilla View Post
    I've been testing this list to good results lately:


    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Mountain
    1 Island

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Grim Lavamancer

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    2 Fireblast

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Daze

    SB:
    3 Force of Will
    3 Submerge
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    3 Smash to Smithereens
    3 Surgical Extraction


    A few observations:

    1. I tested Snapcaster, and I know this will be anathema to a lot of you, but I just don't like it here. The deck is running 18 lands and never wants to see the late game. It's vulnerable to REB and Spell Snare. Every single time I draw it I wish it was a Lightning Bolt, so I just put Rift Bolts in that slot. I can see how he might make sense in a build that needs a higher blue count to support MD Force of Will, but in my build he just feels subpar.

    2. FoW in the side. I tested it in the maindeck (with Snapcasters) and I was rarely happy with it. I was almost always pitching cards I actually needed to seal the deal, like Delver or Snapcaster or even Brainstorm. Burn plays a very tight game. It can win almost always by turn 4, but it needs every card to do it. The card disadvantage from FoW just ends up costing you a lot of games by giving your opponent the extra turn they need to stabilize. It's still great against combo (obviously), so I moved it to the board.

    3. Someone questioned whether Goblin Guide was the best choice for this slot. It definitely is. It's one of the best cards in the deck, and you almost always want to see them in multiples. In most cases, it doesn't matter how many lands they have in their hand, because they'll be dead before they can play them. Honestly, Guide's "disadvantage" has actually been a real boon in many games; knowing what your opponent is about to draw can give you very important information about what you want to play and when.

    4. Someone was saying the RUG Tempo matchup was very difficult. I haven't tested a huge amount of games against it, but it hasn't been that difficult for me. Submerge in response to a fetch is amazing against Goyf, and you can race every other threat in their deck. They're very threat light and you're very threat dense. If you're careful about when and what you fetch to avoid getting blown out by Stifle/Waste, and play very aggressively, you should do okay.

    5. This probably goes without saying, but Smash to Smithereens is an amazing answer to Batterskull.

    6. Delver is stupid.
    Loving the look of that list! How do you approach using daze, do you just kind of throw it out whenever it'll counter something or hold onto it?

  14. #54
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    Loving the look of that list! How do you approach using daze, do you just kind of throw it out whenever it'll counter something or hold onto it?
    Depends on what you're playing against, of course, but basically, Daze is just there to buy a turn, which is usually all you need to win the game.

    I'll Daze a blocker for my attackers. I'll Daze an StP aimed at a one of my creatures. I'll Daze a Spell Snare on Price of Progress. Basically, I treat Daze like damage. If I can use it to push through a few extra points, it's served its purpose.

    The exception to that ideology is against combo, where you use it to stall their plan as long as you can and try to race. Combo is one of the few matchups where you try to play control. Every other matchup you're the beatdown.

  15. #55
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    IMO Snapcaster belongs in the list. Opposing Snares arent that scary when you can replay your price of progress with snapcaster. You WILL reach 3-4 mana on some games and thats when snapcaster shines.

    You can also play him when your opponent has to tap out under pressure so you dont really care about spell snare, on top of that you have dazes..

    Forces just win games.

    That being said I like AJ Sachers list:

    4 goblin guide
    4 delver of secrets
    4 snapcaster mage (I'd personally play 3)
    3 grim lavamancer
    4 brainstorm
    4 lightning bolt
    4 chain lightning
    3 price of progress
    3 ponder
    3 force of will
    3 spell pierce
    1 daze (I'd play more dazes)
    4 volcanic island
    4 scalding tarn
    4 misty rainforest
    4 wooded foothills
    2 mountain
    2 island

    Sideboard:
    1 force of will
    1 price of progress
    1 hydroblast
    3 pyroblast
    3 submerge
    2 chaos warp
    2 surgical extraction
    2 sulfuric vortex

  16. #56

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by dsck View Post
    IMO Snapcaster belongs in the list. Opposing Snares arent that scary when you can replay your price of progress with snapcaster. You WILL reach 3-4 mana on some games and thats when snapcaster shines.
    I think his point is the only legitimate target snapcaster has is price of progress, otherwise you're casting a 3 mana lightning bolt when you could just be casting another bolt. Alternatively, Magma Jet performs a similar role with guaranteed damage by making sure you're drawing into business or digging through crap.

    So is a 4 mana PoP worth it? It's another card that doesn't flip delver and it's pretty terrible on the board.

  17. #57
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Originally, I wasn't convinced Blue Sligh/Counterburn (or whatever this is) was worthwhile (although, I do like Blue Zoo). After testing, I'm increasingly convinced this deck is a good one. The list on which I've been working is nearly identical to your list Zilla. I like the explanations you gave (nothing to add).

    I've found myself wishing I had just a bit more permission. I'm wanting to go -2 burn spells, +2 Spell Snare or Spell Pierce (leaning towards SSnare). Thoughts? I realize the deck is hyper-aggressive, but having more than merely 6 ways to interact on the stack seems necessary.


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  18. #58
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by 4eak View Post
    I've found myself wishing I had just a bit more permission. I'm wanting to go -2 burn spells, +2 Spell Snare or Spell Pierce (leaning towards SSnare). Thoughts? I realize the deck is hyper-aggressive, but having more than merely 6 ways to interact on the stack seems necessary.
    In this post-Misstep meta where people aren't scared shitless of running one-drops, how appropriate does Spellstutter Sprite seem? Especially since Zilla cited the same weakness against combo that straight-red burn has.

    I mean, the flip side of that is that I've never previously been thrilled with Spellstutter in a deck that doesn't also rock Jitte and/or SoFaI (not to mention that in the list being discussed here you don't have FoW to pitch it to), so it might just suffer from the same problem here that Snapcaster does. Still, the idea of a counterspell that I can untap with and start swinging seems okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by herbig View Post
    Terramorphic Expanse combines well with Urborg, tapping all over the place for black mana and then BOOM you fetch a Plains and blow them out with Ramosian Rally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scordata View Post
    Man, why won't the Rock just go away? It doesn't even have any friends.

    Like, you know that feeling when you are walking outside and you step in dog shit?
    Thats the exact feeling i have when my opponent opens with Land, Mox diamond, Dark Confidant.

  19. #59
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I think a big point of Snapcaster is that he can be flashed into play to flashback Brainstorm, Bolt, Daze or PoP, but also he can block a goyf, Knight or whatever. Since not so many creatures are run, this might also give you an extra turn.

    I also would like to add to all lovers of Moon Effects: it dissynergises with PoP.
    Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!

  20. #60

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBopper View Post
    I also would like to add to all lovers of Moon Effects: it dissynergises with PoP.
    Sorry to disappoint you, but non-basic lands stay non-basic under Blood Moon, it does not change their supertype. Still, I don't think there's enough place for 2-3 Blood Moons in the SB, I'd rather have something like Echoing Truth to combat random white leylines or multiple gofs/knights.
    I think this deck could become huge. I've been playing Zilla's list (no Snapcasters, sb FoW, full set of PoP and Rift Bolt), and I'm really impressed with the results.

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