[Deck] U/R Delver

[Octopusman]

Pretty sure that goblin guide's trigger is mandatory. The fact that I even had to type that is irritating to me. Stupid bullshit rules change.

There is a list of things. If it's on this list, you own the trigger and forget... Or ignore it, the game goes on and the opponent doesn't need to remind you even if it doesn't say "may".
Forget about the word beneficial and refer to the list of situations.
Consider it something that you need to memorize like when who has priority or in what order layers occur.


I don't think removing pierces for snares is a good idea. Bolts deal with almost everything. Okay, snare is good for goyf, but that's about it (you can and will burn stoneforge mystic and keep it off the board with rift bolts.

I have a lot of experience with decks like this and I can echo what others have said about a resolved enemy threat that is out of burn range. Right now, I'm looking at echoing truth et al... Perhaps memory lapse or maybe remand.

Consider remand acting as burn in the sense that you're likely stealing another attack phase and it replaces itself. Early game early game early game. Late game... Bolt or fireblast to the dome.

I'm just not really seeing a lot of answers right for for x/4 creatures and problem stuff like leyline of sanctity, etc. We also just lose the race G1 to show an tell?

Please keep developing this deck. I love it! I'm not sure how long price of progress will be great for (huge blood moon/back to basics fan here). How many people totally board it out G2+ since the oponent will play around it? I think the weakens this deck's G2+ greatly, unfortunately.

[Kich867]

Firstly, I too made a redguard that looked like Kimbo Slice, he never wore any gear but what he started with + huge as boots cause he needed some ass kickin boots.

Secondly, pierce doesn't deal with Jitte. Spell Snare deals with just about every problematic card I can think of. I'd rather counter stoneforge than let them even get the chance to find their singleton jitte. It counters jitte if they draw it, it counters goyf, it counters counterspells, it counters hymn, bob, way too much good stuff imo.

People play around Pierce all day and daze doesn't cut it past the first few turns.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I like how there's been a lot of type 2 creep in legacy lately. Legacy U/R Delver seems pretty much identical to standard except it eats lightning and shits thunder. Literally.

[catmint]

I read through the thread and it is nice that there is a lot of players testing different variants.

After my limited testing I think it is best to run snapcaster mage in a 19 or 20 land build with a lot of basics. The 2/1 body is not impressive but if Guide is stalled by a blocker mage gets at least 2 damage through. Also as mentioned by some poeple it is sometimes good to kill creatures in order to make sure the ground guys can come through. Snapcaster supports this strategy very well. Not only can you reuse your burn spell for the dome, but you get an additional body that is just fine if it gets through once. I guess you would take URR for 5 damage with much more potential (PoP, brainstorm, counter, attack more than once,...).

I think in a version with 4 Guide, 4 Delver, 3 Lavamancer and 4 Snapcaster the maindeck counters should be important for everything that stops you from attacking (removal & large creatures). Therefore I would opt to play FoW maindeck and some combination of Daze/Spell Pierce since these counters are most likely to hit removal.

Playing without snapcaster and force but a higher burn density, I would not feel that comfortable targeting ground guys, since your creatures can be removed easier and the 2 for 1 snapcaster is missing.

Jitte is a real Problem in Maverick. Therefore I would opt to play a simple strategy, which should slow them down and blank jitte:
1) Attack with creatures
2) Kill everything that moves (only good plan with snapcaster)
3) Counter their removal / KOR (only good plan with FoW)

This plan is not that good versus Punishing Fire decks, but against them PoP gains a lot in value!

I have 1 question:
In some builds I saw Chaos Warp in the SB. Is this just against Leyline of Sancity or are there some other problem permanents where this is sided id..?!

[David Kaplan]

Blue Burn

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Lava Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

SB:
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Searing Blaze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens

I took Sullivan Burn and added Delver and Brainstorm, cutting Flame Rift and Figure of Destiny. After testing 1 Daze, I continued to add until settling on the full set of 4, pulling Lava Spikes. I do not like FoW/Ponder/Snare/Snapcaster, as that is a different flavor from aggro to aggro-control.

Any comments on the heavier-burn style, preference or dislike over control?

[Zilla]

With regards to the burn heavy list, my comments are as follows:

1. 4 Fireblasts is too many. You pretty much never want to see them in multiples, and you don't necessarily want one in your opening grip. I'd never run more than 3, personally.

2. 20 lands is just too many in this deck unless it's running Snapcaster. Burn decks live and die on their threat density, and topdecking lands in the midgame will cost you games. I don't know if Sullivan's list is running that many, but if it is, I'm guessing it's because Flame Rift and Figure of Destiny increase the mana curve a lot, and you're not running either of them.

3. Personally, I'm really not comfortable running so little control, but if that's what you want, I'd drop a Fireblast and two lands for either 3 more Lava Spike or (my personal preference) 3 Ponder.

[4eak]

I certainly don't agree with the aggro-combo route, but if you do it, then do it right.

• I'm fine with 4 Fireblast when you have Brainstorm. I run 4 Fireblast in regular Burn/Sligh anyways.
  
• Test an Island.
• Cut down to 17 or 18 lands.
  
• If you are going for the combo route, then cut Daze and play Lava Spike. Daze is the wrong role.
• I highly recommend Magma Jet.

EDIT: Here, this is the list I've tested (and rejected in favor of an aggro-control build):

// Lands - 18
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures - 11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

// Card Quality - 7
3 Magma Jet
4 Brainstorm

// Usual suspects - 24
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress


peace,
4eak

[Stuuch]

Blue Burn

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Lava Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

SB:
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Searing Blaze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens

I took Sullivan Burn and added Delver and Brainstorm, cutting Flame Rift and Figure of Destiny. After testing 1 Daze, I continued to add until settling on the full set of 4, pulling Lava Spikes. I do not like FoW/Ponder/Snare/Snapcaster, as that is a different flavor from aggro to aggro-control.

Any comments on the heavier-burn style, preference or dislike over control?

I think you should try Fire/Ice it is has been very good in my tests. It is usually enough if you can stall one big attack from goyf or another big creature by tapping it in opponent´s upkeep and then you get to draw a card too. The Fire part can kill two Hierarchs for example. As for counters I think Spell Snare is the best counterspell for this version of the deck since it counters so many problematic cards like Jitte, SFM and Hymn.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Why would you run this deck without snapcaster. That'd be like hockey games without fights or china without rice. That card is so good I made a U/R deck just to run them.

[Zilla]

Why would you run this deck without snapcaster.

Snapcaster is a late game card, which means it fits in a more controlling build of this deck.

You basically have a spectrum, with an almost pure burn deck splashing blue for just Brainstorm and Delver and running 17-18 lands on one side, and a deck running 19-20 lands and Force of Will + Daze + Snapcaster on the other, and anything in between.

This is similar to the spectrum you see in BUG decks, where you have a highly aggressive aggro control build (Dark Thresh) on one end, Team America in the middle, and BUG Control at the other end.

Different builds are going to perform better or worse in certain metagames. Snapcaster is great in a more controlling build, but he doesn't belong in faster more aggressive builds, in my opinion.

[dsck]

So i just went to tcdeck, went to search and set search for legacy format, delver + chain lightning maindeck

14 decks with snapcaster, 1 deck without.

BUT on the other hand, my friend played UR delver and went 5-1 in swiss event and he felt like Snappers underperformed (only flashing back snare and bolt once).

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

some facetious shit

I see the merits of running this deck without snapcaster, par but personally I've wanted a playset of them since they got leaked and I love being able to flash anything back I want. I wouldn't blindly throw in snapcasters in every single iteration but there aren't a lot of cards to me that compete for those 4 slots.

[Zilla]

So i just went to tcdeck, went to search and set search for legacy format, delver + chain lightning maindeck

14 decks with snapcaster, 1 deck without.

BUT on the other hand, my friend played UR delver and went 5-1 in swiss event and he felt like Snappers underperformed (only flashing back snare and bolt once).

I'm not going to argue with results. Not saying Snapcaster isn't a good card, just that it has its place.

The bottom line is that people have a giant hardon for Snapcasters right now. They're throwing them in any deck that can support them, whether they belong there or not. This is particularly true amongst the SCG crowd.

Are Snapcasters good in this deck? Sure. Are they the best choice in a build with 18 or fewer lands that never wants to see the late game? I would argue that they are not. You can still put them into a build like that without weakening it too much, but I don't think it's the strongest choice for that slot, as your friend would seem to agree.

While playtesting my highly aggressive build, I originally ran Snapcaster as a 3-of. I was rarely unhappy to see them, and they served their role reasonably well. But I noticed that I frequently wished they were just a 1cc 3 damage spell so I could end the game right then and there. Essentially, I would usually still win the game, but it would take a turn longer to do it than if it were just another direct damage spell.

Take that for what it's worth. Again, I'm not going to argue with tournament results... just going to point out that they're not necessarily the last word on the matter.

[Kich867]

I'm not going to argue with results. Not saying Snapcaster isn't a good card, just that it has its place.

The bottom line is that people have a giant hardon for Snapcasters right now. They're throwing them in any deck that can support them, whether they belong there or not. This is particularly true amongst the SCG crowd.

Are Snapcasters good in this deck? Sure. Are they the best choice in a build with 18 or fewer lands that never wants to see the late game? I would argue that they are not. You can still put them into a build like that without weakening it too much, but I don't think it's the strongest choice for that slot, as your friend would seem to agree.

While playtesting my highly aggressive build, I originally ran Snapcaster as a 3-of. I was rarely unhappy to see them, and they served their role reasonably well. But I noticed that I frequently wished they were just a 1cc 3 damage spell so I could end the game right then and there. Essentially, I would usually still win the game, but it would take a turn longer to do it than if it were just another direct damage spell.

Take that for what it's worth. Again, I'm not going to argue with tournament results... just going to point out that they're not necessarily the last word on the matter.

I don't, honestly, I almost always want SCM as price of progress'. On top of that, Lightning Bolt is the only instant speed 3 damage spell we have in the deck. Brainstorm is also insanely relevant. I've SCM'd into a brainstorm into a ton of damage off the top.

They're damn good, and have served me well. I don't feel the super fast version is all that viable, you burn out quickly and I find that they stabilize with 4-5 health and I just can't close the deal.

[Beatusnox]

After the holidays (Monday/Tuesday hopefully), I will do more updating and fixing to the primer(if i cannot tonight, the internet is sketchy right now at best). Right now the OP seems helter skelter (TBH I didnt expect to get this to established so quickly lol).

[rxavage]

this has been my take on this deck, it is very similar to everyones it seems:


4 goblin guide
4 delver
3 lavamancer

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
3 pop
2 fireblast

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 force of will
3 daze
3 ssnare

2 mountain
2 island
4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 bloodstained mire
1 arid mesa

sideboard
4 riftbolt
2 submerge
2 spell pierce
2 echoing truth
3 smash to smithereens
1 shattering spree
1 lavamancer

///


im open to suggestions and opinions. i may try going to 17 lands and switching out the 2 fireblasts for +1 lava, +3 rift bolt. i may also want to try and fit pyroblast in the 75.


Welcome. The Source requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure.
-4eak

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Cut daze down to 1 or 2. Once you counter one of their spells with your one daze they'll start playing more cautiously. That card is good it just doesn't work that well in multiples to me because the threat of you playing a daze while they're tapped out is stronger than the card's actual effect. PoP is great but I wouldn't run it maindeck without being able to snapcast it. That shit wins games my friend.

[Greenpoe]

2 Daze? You either want 4 Daze, 3 or none. It's an early game card that people may want to run only 1 because it's not exactly amazing in multiples (still a good 4-of with Force/Brainstorm though). Good players won't just not tap out because you're playing Daze. They'll just play their spells differently. Spoiler: Free counters are good.

[troopatroop]

That's not true. For reference, a winning list...

U/R Delver
A Legacy Magic deck, by Andrew Shrout
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Fireblast
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Snare

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

2 Daze has tested very strong for me here, as have all the card quantities. 2 Fireblast have been exceptional at closing out games with the Aggro-Control strategy, and are a real boon to have. All in all, the deck is very streamlined. 2 of Daze or Fireblast can't ever really be bad, because you don't want multiples, and they're free. Price + Snapcaster gives this deck a serious source of lategame dmg, so I've found 3 Force 3 Snare to be a fine addition to the deck. You can say the deck loses focus, but I believe it's great protection from what beats us. Burn lists "should" stay focused on burn, but I believe in this route as well, simply because Price is so much damage anyway. This list should be featured on the primer, imo.

[Beatusnox]

It already is. At the bottom of the op has been for a week i believe. I am on my phone right now so it is hard to fix op.