Here is the official update in regards to optional abilities:
1.4. OPTIONAL ABILITIES
Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional. The player is not required to follow the instruction when the ability resolves, and if the ability is forgotten it will not retroactively be applied. An optional ability does one or more of the following things, and nothing else:
•Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life.
•Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes
•drawing cards.
•Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile.
•Puts a permanent into play under your control or gives you control of a permanent.
•Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
•Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
•Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target
•your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
•Gives you additional turns or phases.
•Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent.
Abilities that trigger at the same point in each players turn and do something to “that player” (e.g. Howling Mine) are never optional.
This list is comprehensive. An ability that does not fit all of the criteria above is not optional, even if it is to the benefit of the player controlling the ability. Similarly, an optional ability is always optional, even if it would be to the detriment of the player for it to happen.
I'm wondering if based on this new ruling some cards will receive new Oracle wordings to reflect their true nature under this new ruling.
Take for example Argothian Enchantress:
Argothian Enchantress
1G
Creature - Human Druid
Shroud
Whenever you cast an enchantment spell, draw a card.
0/1
Under the old ruling, the draw trigger was mandatory. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the new IPG, but it seems like this trigger would now become optional, much like the one on Verduran Enchantress ('whenever you cast an enchantment spell, you may draw a card').
In general, draw triggers are always beneficial, but for example in the Enchantress deck, decking yourself due to drawing too many cards is a legitimate concern in some narrow cases. Would 'strategically forgetting' the draw trigger be allowable, or would this be an actual rules infraction?
I'm sure there are other examples in Legacy where this new ruling on triggers would have some actual implications. Personally I think they should just go back and retroactively change the oracle wording on cards like this to avoid any confusion.
Thanks.
There are others things about the language of this new ruling that I'm not so keen on. To illustrate them, I'll be using some convoluted examples, but bear with me...
•Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life.
---Suppose an opponent had cast False Cure earlier in the turn or has a Kavu Predator in play. Gaining life may actually be non-beneficial.
Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
---Suppose your opponent is at two life, has two cards in hand, and has an Ensnaring Bridge. You can strategically 'forget' to give your Snapcaster Mage a +1/+1 counter to swing for the win.
•Gives you additional turns or phases.
---The card name escapes me, but suppose there's one that grants a second upkeep phase. Suppose you are at low life and have a Dark Confidant out, or suppose your opponent has a Tangle Wire/Smokestack.
Plenty of other examples I'm sure. This change in ruling may not effect Standard or Limited too much, but there are some far-reaching implications in Legacy/Vintage.
Last edited by wcm8; 12-20-2011 at 11:03 AM.
Transcendance
Enchantment
3WWW
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
When you have 20 or more life, you lose the game.
Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost. (Damage dealt to you causes you to lose life.)
??
No; the intent of the rule is to better handle cards like Soul Warden without changing any card wordings. I wonder if the GP Boston T8 I judged had anything to do with this; half the T8 would've been DQed for missing Soul Warden triggers had the HJ not issued special instructions :)Originally Posted by wcm8
It makes all such triggers optional; you can now skip them without penalty, whether you forgot or both you and your opponent remember. Decking yourself is now much harder.Under the old ruling, the draw trigger was mandatory. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the new IPG, but it seems like this trigger would now become optional, much like the one on Verduran Enchantress ('whenever you cast an enchantment spell, you may draw a card').
In general, draw triggers are always beneficial, but for example in the Enchantress deck, decking yourself due to drawing too many cards is a legitimate concern in some narrow cases. Would 'strategically forgetting' the draw trigger be allowable, or would this be an actual rules infraction?
In order to minimize confusion with older cards, Wizards does not "retroactively change Oracle wording". The only time they change wording is when they reprint a card.I'm sure there are other examples in Legacy where this new ruling on triggers would have some actual implications. Personally I think they should just go back and retroactively change the oracle wording on cards like this to avoid any confusion.
Yes, under the new rule you can decline the lifegain trigger.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Correct me if I'm wrong, Chuck, but reading through the other thread I'm under the impression this only works at Competitive and Professional REL. Any lower REL event mandatory triggers are still just that?
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
This is true, but the IPG doesn't cover Regular. The "Judging At Regular" (JAR) does, and I would think it'll be updated to say the same thing.
As of right now though, yes, there's no optional trigger provision at Regular. There's no penalties at Regular though, just "if a player forgets a mandatory trigger immediately resolve it".
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I'm not very happy with the way Transcendence ends up working under this rules change.
Honestly, a Platinum Angel/Emperion effect on a 3WWW enchantment is not exactly overpowered, but the fact that it's only functioning that way due to a rules-lawyering loophole kind of goies against the 'spirit' of the card's original intention.
It's unlikely that it's playable even as a Platinum effect, since it's basically just acting as a 'super' Solitary Confinement that costs 6 and without the upkeep drawback.
But I imagine there are many other cases where the option of 'beneficial' triggers makes a card broken/better. For example, I think Jin Gitaxias' Draw 7 is optional under the new ruling. Granted, a resolved Jin is likely going to win the game anyways, but there are cases where you can avoid decking yourself with it.
Since it's nothing but "draw seven cards" it is, yes.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Ugh typical WotC. Changes the way we play and doesn't clarify any sweeping changes. I don't agree with optional draw triggers being retroactively changed without an official errata for specific cards. It also doesn't gel with the philosophy of having cards do as printed and not require looking up errata elsewere. Decking from forced draw triggers is still highly relevant in Eternal.
West side
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It's funny how you can't decline to draw cards of your own Standstill, as it's not just beneficial to you because you also have to sacrifice it.
I also wonder, if this might create difficult to handle situations in multiplayer games. You drawing cards is beneficial, but how about you and two other players drawing cards? I guess this isn't strictly beneficial. Still, interesting.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Please keep all discussion in Community. This thread is fine for rules-related questions.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Since it's not you and only you drawing cards, it's not optional. Certainly it would make sense to update it in the future to include teammates, but not currently.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
It will help you learn the new changes if you stop checking whether a trigger is "beneficial" and only pay attention to whether it meets the criteria of an Optional Ability in 1.4.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
They're only "Optional Abilities" because they're beneficial. At least that's what's the underlying intention of this rule in the first place.
I can see why you dislike "beneficial" as it might cause people to not realize that there's a very clear (yet long) list of criteria for "Optional abilities".
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Where was this update posted?
The WPN documents area, like usual for tournament documents:
http://www.wizards.com/ContentResour...Guide_PDF2.pdf
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
If I have the following card in play:
Adhoc Madeupaton -
Artifact Creature
At the beginning of your upkeep, target creature you control gains shroud until end of turn.
1/1
is its trigger optional?
Last edited by Nihil Credo; 12-20-2011 at 04:43 PM. Reason: "you control". Gah.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
If it targets any creature clearly no...If I have the following card in play:
Adhoc Madeupaton -
Artifact Creature
At the beginning of your upkeep, target creature gains shroud until end of turn.
1/1
is its trigger optional?
If it's "target creature you control" - from what I see yes; the exact meaning of "beneficial" needs clarification from the L5s but they are apparently not yet prepared to provide it.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Is this referencing an ability like Kira, Great Glass-Spinner? I am not thinking extremely clearly right now so the wording on this one has me a little perplexed.Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent.
Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
Kira doesn't fit because it counters from any source, not just opponents.
The "only when cast by an opponent" applies to both "counters a spell" and "conditionally counters a spell".
I can't think of many; Chancellor of the Annex, flipped Erayo, Frost Titan, Invoke Prejudice...
The intricacy of the wording required should've probably been a clue it was a bad idea.
Last edited by cdr; 12-21-2011 at 02:46 PM.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
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