Infracture Procedure Guidelines -- implications of changes to 'may' ruling

[pandaman]

"Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional. The player is not required to follow the instruction when the ability resolves, and if the ability is forgotten it will not retroactively be applied."

Is there a distinction between remembering the trigger but not following the instruction when the ability resolves, and forgetting the trigger altogether?

Is it the case that if you indicate the trigger is on the stack and resolve it, you can not follow the trigger instruction during resolution without getting a warning, but if you forget the trigger and someone calls a judge on you (it would seem they can do that because they no longer have to remind you to resolve the trigger), you get a warning as is usual for a missed trigger?

That leads to the question, what if you don't mention the trigger at all when it should resolve? Is that classed as not following the trigger instruction on resolution, or missing the trigger altogether?

How many warnings for missed triggers can you accumulate before you get a game/match loss, and what procedure does the judge have to use to give someone a match loss for multiple missed triggers?

cdr, you're going to have your work cut out for you in this thread. Modpayrise?

[cdr]

Is there a distinction between remembering the trigger but not following the instruction when the ability resolves, and forgetting the trigger altogether?

Is it the case that if you indicate the trigger is on the stack and resolve it, you can not follow the trigger instruction during resolution without getting a warning, but if you forget the trigger and someone calls a judge on you (it would seem they can do that because they no longer have to remind you to resolve the trigger), you get a warning as is usual for a missed trigger?

That leads to the question, what if you don't mention the trigger at all when it should resolve? Is that classed as not following the trigger instruction on resolution, or missing the trigger altogether?

How many warnings for missed triggers can you accumulate before you get a game/match loss, and what procedure does the judge have to use to give someone a match loss for multiple missed triggers?

cdr, you're going to have your work cut out for you in this thread. Modpayrise?

1) There's no difference. If you forget and move on, it's assumed it triggered, resolved, and you chose not apply the effect of the trigger.

2) Yes, you can skip the effect of the trigger on resolution. Per the IPG, you don't get a Missed Trigger penalty if you forget an optional trigger.

3) Again, same thing either way. You can mention it, not mention it, or forget it - all the same.

4) You get two Game Play Error warnings total per tournament (Missed Trigger, Failure to Reveal, Looking at Extra, Drawing Extra, Improper Draw at Start, Game Rule Violation). The third or subsequent is a game loss each time - never a match loss. As far as procedure, most Game Losses (save for simple stuff like decklist penalties) have to be approved by the HJ - he/she may want to have a word with you if you're picking up multiple game losses for warnings :)

[Parcher]

Let's say I'm playing Dredge. My opponent attempts to cast Surgical Extraction on an Ichorid in my graveyard. In response, I activate Cephalid Coliseum, choosing to replace the draws from it with Dredge. During the course of it's resolution, an Emrakul is revealed, and it's trigger goes on the stack above the Extraction.

Can I choose to not "conditionally counter a spell controlled by an opponent", which is exactly what would happen if the Emrakul shuffle resolves, and "miss" the trigger?

[Anusien]

Whether something is optional or not ignores the board state. Think of it as "If something meets all these criteria, pretend it has the word may in it."

Emrakul's shuffle ability is not optional.

[Parcher]

Annihilator isn't optional either. But we've already been told that you can choose to ignore that trigger.

[cdr]

Let's say I'm playing Dredge. My opponent attempts to cast Surgical Extraction on an Ichorid in my graveyard. In response, I activate Cephalid Coliseum, choosing to replace the draws from it with Dredge. During the course of it's resolution, an Emrakul is revealed, and it's trigger goes on the stack above the Extraction.

Can I choose to not "conditionally counter a spell controlled by an opponent", which is exactly what would happen if the Emrakul shuffle resolves, and "miss" the trigger?

What would happen isn't relevant - what's relevant is what the ability says. That part of the rule applies only to abilities that say they counter spells your opponents control.

[Parcher]

Or, conditionally counter an opponent's spell, as the new guideline reads. Removing a spell's target to "fizzle" it, has always been the definition of a spell being countered by condition. Or as commonly said, upon resolution. Which the Emrakul trigger's resolution will cause.

[cdr]

Or, conditionally counter an opponent's spell, as the new guideline reads. Removing a spell's target to "fizzle" it, has always been the definition of a spell being countered by condition. Or as commonly said, upon resolution. Which the Emrakul trigger's resolution will cause.

Again, irrelevant. If a card has one of the things from 1.4 printed on it, it fits. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

[Parcher]

That makes some sense. But then, why would they add "conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent"? As far as I know, there isn't a single card that has that printed on it.

[cdr]

That makes some sense. But then, why would they add "conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent"? As far as I know, there isn't a single card that has that printed on it.

Frost Titan and company fit. Conditional and only by opponents.

[Parcher]

Got it. Has to read as such on the specific card. Thanks Chuck.

[Koby]

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly:

Tainted Aether now can be ignored by my opponents when I control it?

EDIT: or rather, since I control it, I put the trigger on the stack, and chose to make it optional?

[cdr]

I just want to make sure I understand this correctly:

Tainted Aether now can be ignored by my opponents when I control it?

Not sure whether Tainted Aether fits criteria #3 ("Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile.") or not, to be honest. Not sure whether they intend "opponents" to be exclusive or not. If it does fit, you as the controller could choose whether to apply the effect when it resolved.

Unrelatedly, the Missed Trigger change means your opponent can allow the trigger to be missed if you (the controller) forget it.

[Anusien]

Annihilator isn't optional either. But we've already been told that you can choose to ignore that trigger.

Annhilator is optional.

Tainted Aether is not optional.

[cdr]

Tainted Aether is not optional.

If it isn't, some of Eric's examples on C-F are possibly incorrect.

[Koby]

On a closer reading, Tainted AEther is not optional since it's ambiguous regarding a clear player for the trigger. It would be optional if it only affected your opponent; and would be mandatory if it affected only you. Since it's affecting both players with a specific controller trigger, it's mandatory.

I can tell already 2012 competitive magic is not going to be fun.

[sauce]

so if you normally never miss any triggers, your own or opponents, then this change is pretty irrelevant to your tournament experience afaik, correct?

[Koby]

For the most part, except some existing "must trigger" are now "may trigger". That's the big contention.

[Julian23]

so if you normally never miss any triggers, your own or opponents, then this change is pretty irrelevant to your tournament experience afaik, correct?

Incorrect. This rule adds a new level to the game, allowing you to deliberately skip certain mandatory triggers.

[cdr]

The Jan 2012 IPG has been retracted. The new version will not have the "optional beneficial triggers" section 1.4.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...evisions?sdb=1