Even if you consider the maximum acceptable mana cost of 2G, it would still require 5 creatures, which is pretty impossible outside of dredge. Since there's no way to get it in hand while dredging, and it's not even black, dredge has no use for this.
It's just a zombie treefolk slingin' a flail with skulls. That's badass.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Seems like elves and Fluctuator could also get there.
I realize that my idea is probably going to be nothing more than something I'd bring to the kitchen table. It would be nice to seem something come of it though.
There are two main reasons why I'm wanting to try this out:
1. Because of the possible interactions I saw with Gravecrawler and Vengevine.
2. I wasn't playing during the period when Survival of the Fittest was still legal due to lack of money and because of school. I have looked at lists for Survival decks with Vengevine before and while I find the strategy to be rather overpowered, I still find myself a little bit fascinated by it and wanting to try and utilize Vengevine in the same fashion post-Survival.
I had initially dismissed Buried Alive and Fauna Shaman, but they are looking like the most consistent route for getting what I need into the grave.
As for Haakon, I had overlooked him, and will definitely give him a go.
I'll give these a try as well. Also, Life from the Loam with Zombie Infestation seems like they could promising. When I get around to it I'll also try out some of the unearth zombies, with the most likely ones being Viscera Dragger and Dregscape Zombie.
A big thanks to those who gave me any input towards the deck. Keep the ideas coming guys.
Sorin seems ridic.
As a B/W pet deck enthusiast. I'm excited for some more power.
4 CC is in Legacy range
3 Loyalty is nice from a bolt range
Defends himself, pumps B/W creatures which are usually more utility than power.
What plays him, though? Elspeth seems better in most BW decks.
I see him as a good way to put a clock on your opponent.
This may be naive, but paired in builds with mother of runes, your opponent will need to amass several (nonevasive) creatures to touch him, and if they dont touch him by the 3rd turn, the army that your opponent amassed is yours.
Elspeth can make tokens too, but her first ability is outclassed by sorin's and in racing situations, B/W typically loses even with the jump. Sorin allows for a better control touch to BW decks.
Four mana seems too much for most BW decks. Like you said, they're mostly utility dorks and disruption, and I don't think Sorin does enough to justify running a four-drop in a deck that probably only wants 18-20 lands.
I mean, Sorin's best ability is the emblem-maker since it actually pressures the opponent. But it takes a bunch of creatures to be relevant, whereas Elspeth's +3/+3 and flying buff still clocks the opponent well regardless of how many attackers you've got.
The vampire tokens are fine, I guess. There's little difference between them and generic Soldiers until you've got multiple +1/+0 emblems because a flying 1/x is not much of a clock and the lifelink is irrelevant unless you've got a bunch of them. The emblem effect is nice but you need a lot of guys getting through for it to be relevant, and BW tends to be all small utility dorks. The ultimate is sweet, but like most planeswalkers, I don't think you should be judging his Constructed-worthiness by it.
Lilianna of the Veil is probably better in BW anyway.
Your skepticism will only be enhanced when I tell you that the vampires unfortunately cant fly.
You mean he's just plain worse than Bitterblossom, an already marginal card? Yeah, this guy's not seeing play in this format.
I am pretty sure he will replace Elspeth and possibly Garruk (Relentless) in Nic Fit decks. the BW is easier to cast than WW and the lifelink is relevant as evidenced by the deck running at least a kitchen finks and ooze. My guess is 2 Lilliana, 2 Sorin for Gb/w lists.
I think the card Sorin most closely compares to is Ajani Goldmane. And he is a pretty massive upgrade there. Unlike Ajani, who had two pretty crap abilities surrounding a semi-useful to extremely powerful middle trick, Sorin has three solid abilities. And his mass pump is much more useful because it affects every creature on your side for the rest of the game, whether they're on the field now or not.
I expect Sorin to be extremely strong in Standard and Modern.
Legacy... I'm not so sure. Lifelink tokens that are pumpable is strong, and so is his ultimate. He's better against zoo than Elspeth. He presents a real problem for someone planning to win exclusively with Jace, since he can farm out blockers/attackers until he gets to "steal jace" power level. Sorin also interacts very nicely with manlands and repeatable creatuers like Bloodghast.
I think a U/B/w deck that doesn't want to commit to WW just for Elspeth as a backup to Jace would really like this. Otherwise.. maybe, but he probably sits around with Ajani Vengeant in the "almost good enough"/"corner case solution" box.
If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then create a 1/1 lifelink token shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o
I would say this is true if Liliana of the Veil didn't exist. The fact that she does and is probably better against all the decks that don't run Jace (and there are actually a lot right now) puts her over the edge.
The thing is, Sorin's token creation is probably worse than Bitterblossom because the latter gets started earlier and makes evasive tokens. Evasion is infinitely better than lifelink in a format where creature combat is defined by a bunch of very large and/or well-protected ground dudes mashing into each other.
Sorin's emblem is worse than Elspeth's jump. It's better if you are attacking with a swarm of creatures, but clogged boards and/or larger dudes on your opponent's side negate it. Elspeth, on the other hand, lets you keep blockers up much better and can conveniently get guys over a ground stall, and she works just as well with one dude as she does with five.
As for the ultimate: yeah, Sorin's is better, but I wonder how much of an upside that is. Even Stoneblade can use removal + Snapcasters to clear a way for Batterskull against Sorin, and you're in Vindicate colors, so I don't think Jace is that much of an issue. Also keep in mind that, if they can counter Vindicate, they can counter your planeswalker. I would rather have red for Ajani V because Armageddon is sweet against control and the Helix ability can nix random Stoneforges before they start vialing in Batterskulls.
Consider the variations:
- If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then create a 1/1 token shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o
- If you have time to cast a 4 mana planeswalker and then fateseal your opponent shouldn't you just win the game? 0_o
They're called Elspeth and Jace, and see quite a bit of play in this format.
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How often does a resolved Jace lose?
How often does a four mana 1/1 lifelink lose?
Not really the format is quite slow but spells are so powerful that game may be already so far away its just a matter of turns before the game is over. Spells like Knight of the Reliquary, Elspeth or Jace. They might not have killed you yet but you are starring down alot of trouble.
Sorin does fit the BW decks token plan with Bitterblossom and Elspeth. Its that Anthem the deck cant afford to play as well as a token generator that makes the drawback of lossing life from your Confidants and Bitterblossom less relivant.
Something worth noting is that Sorin's ultimate arrives a turn earlier than Elspeth's and it is much, much more powerful, very close to an auto-win if the opponent had anything worth stealing.
On a stabilised board, he and Elspeth would play in completely different ways: with Elspeth you'd keep a few chump blockers and ride the Angelic Blessings to victory, only VERY occasionally going for the ultimate; with Sorin, you'll only make Oriflammes if you expect him to die soon (or if you have a spare), but usually you'll want to shoot for the "fuck you and die" ultimate.
Sorin:
+++ Ridiculously powerful and cheaper ultimate
++ Easier to cast
+ 2nd ability sticks around, wins you Goyf fights for the rest of the game, can synergise with tokens if you play any (BB, Decree of Justice, etc.)
+ Tokens have lifelink
Elspeth:
+++ 2nd ability is +1 instead of -2 and is much faster at winning over a stalled board
++ 4 starting loyalty
On balance, I think Sorin is going to be generally better than Elspeth for black/white decks, and some white decks may even want to splash black just for him.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Yeah to me it seems just better than Elspeth in BW, easier casting cost and better abilities in my opinion. Problem is it's BW.
Yeah to me it seems just better than Elspeth in BW, easier casting cost and better abilities in my opinion. Problem is it's BW.
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