Merits of running a 61st card?

[Skeggi]

You write that 23/38 might be 'optimal'. When you write optimal, do you mean "able to cast spells x,y,z" as quickly as possible, or 'most likely to be able to cast one of a,b,c by turn 3" or something similar?

The ability to cast key spells consistent on the turn that they're required.

"Perfect mana ratio" arguments for 61 cards are absurd.

"Absurd" sounds a bit strong. It's not absurd. I can show you absurd, just come to Amsterdam and I'll show you the true meaning of the word.

The difference is incredibly small, but even if it's "better" you now have the possibility of drawing that weak(er) 61st card instead of the bomb underneath it.

Let me make this more tangible with an illustration: for instance, you already have your "bomb" in your hand. Let's say this "bomb" is a Jace and you don't have 4 mana, or you don't have that double blue. What good is your "bomb" if you don't have the mana to cast it?

Arguing perfect mana ratios is like saying that drawing four lands by turn four is okay 614 times out of 1000, but if it creeps up to 632 times out of 1000 that's too much. Absolutely ridiculous.

Well, a line needs to be drawn somewhere. If we're not strifing for the perfect decks on this forum, then what the hell is this forum about? It's not "absolutely ridiculous". Come to Amsterdam, I'll show you "absolutely ridiculous".

Both Gabe Walls and LSV have argued for running 61 cards, but those were for a very specific purpose (mana ratio) and in very specific decks (Astral Slide and Esper control, respectively).

So Gave Walls (who the hell is that?) and LSV say the same thing I've been saying. Interesting. It can't be "absurd" or "absolutely ridiculous" if LSV considers it worthy of thought. Kuma, have I invited you to Amsterdam yet?

That being said, running 61 cards is nearly always wrong. And by nearly always wrong, I mean there are probably less than 5 examples in all of magic history where you could make a legit argument for it, and none of the examples in this thread qualify.

Well, yeah, but hypothetically it could be better to run 61 cards over 60. And the amount of it being better is insignificant, as Kuma is trying to point out. Or at least, I think that's part of what he says.

[SpikeyMikey]

"Absurd" sounds a bit strong. It's not absurd. I can show you absurd, just come to Amsterdam and I'll show you the true meaning of the word.

I can't help but think of Eurotrip when I read this. Welcome to Club Wundersex!!!

[Nelis]

I can't help but think of Eurotrip when I read this. Welcome to Club Wuondersex!!!

Fixed. I hate it when people mix up Dutch and German. Not that wondersex is a proper dutch word but at least this way it's spelled correctly if it was.

[Wisdomseyes1]

Sure, your chances of drawing those cards is zero if they aren't in the deck... but if those cards are that important to the Meta, are they really the 61st card? Or is it another card in your deck?

The 61st card is not literally the last card you put in.. its the weakest of your cards.

I understand that completely and if you look at the post i am responding to you will see that.

Let's remember that their is an original post and an original topic. This is about the merits of ADDING this card to your current deck which this current deck would have 60 cards and a 15 card sideboard.

Which is my point... you have a 15 card sideboard. that cuts down on the number of options to deal with your meta in a 60 card deck. The small chance, to me, is abysmal enough to be ignored in place of drawing a card that could win the game. Now would you put in a card that would be totally useless like [card]acid rain[/card] against any deck without blue? Of course not! If the card is usable but better against certain deck genres than i see no reason not to put it in.

if we talk about bog... exiling an opponents graveyard almost never hurts. it comes into play tapped... may or may not hurt. going by the ORIGINAL TOPIC adding bog as a 61st card because the sideboard is full, doesnt hurt much but can.

what is the weakest card in your deck? Well not the 61st card if you are wanting to put it in. The weakest card in your deck must be something else. It hurts your drawing chances to little to matter to me and most of the other people arguing for it.

Your opinion if that extra option is worth very little in comparison to the increased chance of drawing a plethora of cards that wont help you, thats up to you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Theoretically it is possible for the mana ratio to work out so perfectly at 61 cards that it's the correct number to run. Theoretically I could jump off the Burj Dubai and live. Neither of these events seems very likely and I would not trust someone who insists they've got it figured out.

The only good reason to run 61 cards is if you are about to enter a tournament and are not sure what the correct card to cut is. Then the damage of running the 61st card might be less than accidentally cutting the wrong card via hasty decision making. But given time to mull the decision over, you should always go down to 60.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I understand that completely and if you look at the post i am responding to you will see that.

Let's remember that their is an original post and an original topic. This is about the merits of ADDING this card to your current deck which this current deck would have 60 cards and a 15 card sideboard.

Which is my point... you have a 15 card sideboard. that cuts down on the number of options to deal with your meta in a 60 card deck. The small chance, to me, is abysmal enough to be ignored in place of drawing a card that could win the game. Now would you put in a card that would be totally useless like [card]acid rain[/card] against any deck without blue? Of course not! If the card is usable but better against certain deck genres than i see no reason not to put it in.

if we talk about bog... exiling an opponents graveyard almost never hurts. it comes into play tapped... may or may not hurt. going by the ORIGINAL TOPIC adding bog as a 61st card because the sideboard is full, doesnt hurt much but can.

what is the weakest card in your deck? Well not the 61st card if you are wanting to put it in. The weakest card in your deck must be something else. It hurts your drawing chances to little to matter to me and most of the other people arguing for it.

Your opinion if that extra option is worth very little in comparison to the increased chance of drawing a plethora of cards that wont help you, thats up to you.

It is probably better to run a 61 card Knight of the Reliquary deck with 1x Maze of Ith than a 60 card list without, all other things being held equal.

However, it is far preferable to add the Maze and then cut something else.

[Koby]

It is probably better to run a 61 card Knight of the Reliquary deck with 1x Maze of Ith than a 60 card list without, all other things being held equal.

However, it is far preferable to add the Maze and then cut something else.

In my experience, it's better to not run it at all. Drawing Maze of Ith against Burn or Combo makes your hand that much worse. Dryad Arbor is bad enough to draw; adding another non-mana land doesn't help.

[Skeggi]

Ruckus, that's a meta call. If your meta contains alot of SFM and therefor equips, Maze is pretty good. Swords to Plowshares is also underwhelming against burn or storm, but still is considered a 4-of in alot of decks.

[Koby]

Ruckus, that's a meta call. If your meta contains alot of SFM and therefor equips, Maze is pretty good. Swords to Plowshares is also underwhelming against burn or storm, but still is considered a 4-of in alot of decks.

Valid point. Neither is that great in a meta comprising of a ton of those decks. At least the StP has incidental marginal use against Burn and sometimes Storm.

[nedleeds]

Gitaxian Probe is that card not Brainstorm because Probe replaces itself and does not cost any mana, not even . So no tempo is lost.

I know people like to throw the word tempo around like it means something ... but it's only tempo if you planned on doing something and your game state was supposed to advance. Brainstorm replaces itself, can be played as an instant, and allows you to thin your deck to a virtual < 60 cards. Rather than run a 61st card, if you had access to Island and some fetchlands, and didn't need to win on turn one, I'd trim a 4 of to a 3 of, or a 3 of to a 2 of and run 4 x Brainstorm.

[majikal]

Swords to Plowshares is also underwhelming against burn or storm, but still is considered a 4-of in alot of decks.

Disagree. Targeting your own guy with StP is pretty saucy against burn.

[sdematt]

Agreed. Swords NEVER comes out against Burn/Storm, especially if you're running Knight/Goyf (big guys).

-Matt

[Skeggi]

The fact that it does something doesn't mean it's not underwhelming. There are better ways to gain life if that's what you're after. Obviously drawing your 1 -of Maze of Ith is strictly worse than drawing 1 Swords to Plowshares, but since Swords to Plowshares is a 4-of, you're likely to draw multiples and in the case of lifegaining purposes it tends to get awkward. I thought that was obvious, but I guess not. I often side out 1 or 2 Swords to Plowshares against Storm or Burn, depending on what my sideboard has to offer; ofcourse I'd also side out the Maze of Ith.

But even Maze of Ith has a purpose against Burn and Storm: it can let your Knight of the Reliquary attack and still use the activation. In case of Storm this is very handy because you want to apply pressure while wasting his Underground Seas. Yes, Maze of Ith is still underwhelming, but it's not void of use (presuming you only run Maze of Ith if you also run Knight of the Reliquary).

[nedleeds]

As long as we are off topic and talking about burn ....

Let me preface this by saying I play some bad cards. That being said some of my favorites when facing burn at the store (most of whom refuse to run Anarchy) are

- Worship
- Leyline of Sanctity (nice all around board card for combo / discard / intuition / burn)
- Absolute Law (if you have SFM and equips I think this is the ideal sideboard card)
- If you are hyper aggro I love Honorable Passage, I've played it in Boros style W/r aggro and it's quite the sack crush