Is it safe to unban Oath of Druids now?

[socialite]

I wanted to start a healthy discussion but it didn't work out. Oath is worse than Land Tax, Survival, Necro and Bargain because the card needs a deck that is warped around it. Usuallly a one-trick pony, you shut down Oath and you shut down the player. Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, the Oath strategy is weak sauce compared to TPS and dredge.

If there are LED-based decks that exists now and win on turns 1-2, how come Oath is still scary? Survival is a different story because there are several variations of the deck that can be built, making each deck that runs the card more robust and virtually unstoppable. Same case with Necro/Bargain, as if Storm isn't broken as it is. Land Tax offers insane card advantage, 3 cards a turn will be too much against tempo which is currently rampant.

The example emidln gave is easily disruptible and I imagine a deck like that has to run a ton of crap cards which are ineffective by themselves without Oath in play. And with a shitload of removal available in legacy I couldn't imagine Oathed fatties being more dangerous than turn 1 entomb turn 2 Jin, Draw 7 ok?

Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, no.

Edit: Well maybe.

Edit: No. It would still warp a metagame based around creatures i.e. Legacy.

[emidln]

I wanted to start a healthy discussion but it didn't work out. Oath is worse than Land Tax, Survival, Necro and Bargain because the card needs a deck that is warped around it. Usuallly a one-trick pony, you shut down Oath and you shut down the player. Based on my experience in building Vintage decks, the Oath strategy is weak sauce compared to TPS and dredge.

If there are LED-based decks that exists now and win on turns 1-2, how come Oath is still scary? Survival is a different story because there are several variations of the deck that can be built, making each deck that runs the card more robust and virtually unstoppable. Same case with Necro/Bargain, as if Storm isn't broken as it is. Land Tax offers insane card advantage, 3 cards a turn will be too much against tempo which is currently rampant.

The example emidln gave is easily disruptible and I imagine a deck like that has to run a ton of crap cards which are ineffective by themselves without Oath in play. And with a shitload of removal available in legacy I couldn't imagine Oathed fatties being more dangerous than turn 1 entomb turn 2 Jin, Draw 7 ok?

The danger isn't in a slightly more consistent LED combo deck (TES, ANT) or a deck that can put fatties into play on turn 2-3 (Reanimator). It's having a deck that does both while executing strategy switches fluidly as necessary.

Oath can put anything into play that Reanimator can without playing nearly so many shitty creatures, can make them hasty, can keep returning them if you deal with them, and actually gets to play better, more disruptive fatties like Emrakul. Further, against most decks in the format, Oath is a one card combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't see how Oath would be safe to unban.

Oath in Legacy would almost certainly be UGx, probably Bant. Your win - the Oath combo - takes maybe 6-7 spell slots: 4 Oath, 1 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus, maybe 1 Iona. You might run Lotus Petal, though honestly I don't see that being that great since your cheap tutor options are limited in this format. You get to run cheap cantrips, a suite of free and cheap counters, possibly discard if you want to go four colors. The deck would be insanely good at protecting its combo because the combo is so compact. I mean, 4 Oath, 3-4 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Brainstorm, and some number of Ponder means you'll hit Oath early and often. You can run Spell Pierce to stop Nature's Claims and GSZs for Pridemage; you can run Spell Snare for opposing Oaths and harcast Pridemages; you can run Thoughtseize to grab answers out of the opponent's hand preemptively.

Oath would heavily warp the metagame around it. Decks like Maverick would have to retool themselves to support a high enough density of answers to Oath, and many aggro decks packing less natural disruption would be virtually invalidated overnight. Blue decks with the ability to answer Oath and execute some non-Oath game plan would have a metagame advantage versus anti-Oath decks, but honestly Oath seems very powerful even when a lot of aggro has been driven out of the format. Matches in Legacy are still driven primarily by creatures.

So no, I don't think Oath is safe to unban. If people are still bitching about Brainstorm, you can bet Oath is off the table.

[Dark Ritual]

Oath singlehandedly invalidates aggro as an archetype in legacy. If WotC unbans it in legacy they need to reevaluate their stance on a buttload of cards on the banlist because oath is ridiculously overpowered. Especially now that past in flames is in the mix I don't ever see oath coming off. I'd love to play oath storm but it won't ever happen in legacy. Oath is in the same boat as hermit druid as well; getting to fire off a trigger/activation of oath = GG's.

[Gheizen64]

I dont know when that was but fatties weren't as strong back then than now. Oath has the benefit of recent sets having creatures that are more powerful than ever.

That was old extended, circa Scourge era. Oath was a marginal deck a best. It didn't win via fatties, it did win with... Battlefield Scrounger. Yes, seriously, Battlefield Scrounger into Time Warp loop. It played also Horn of greed and a singleton capsize. This was when Tinker could tinker in Phyrexian Colossus at best, and maindecked Crumbling Sanctuary and Phyrexian Processor (well processor was actually good) and Upheaval.

I think the fatties of choice back then were Verdant Force, Iridescent Angel and Akroma had been just printed.

EDIT: thinking about it, how stupid are the new fatties? They basically never get hardcasted in any format and just make old cards retarded. I mean, Vengevine i can understand, Baneslayer Angel too, but cards like Progenitus? They can be casted only cheated in, they're basically "LOL i win" cards and nothing more. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel. 6 or 7 mana is pushing it for hardcasting even in decks with moxens and workshop. MUD maybe.
Cards like Iridescent Angel or Verdant were fatties that dictated the flow of the game, but weren't retarded. Spells really should just cost 7 or 8 at max, anything more is just begging to be broken by stupid interactions and never actually casted. I mean, what the most a competitive spell got played and harcasted? T&N i guess.
For creatures Titans and Broodmate were/are widely played in formats. Angel of Despair and Akroma, angel of Wrathsaw actual play in solar flare too, but it was one of the slowest Standard ever, with Ravnica bouncelands and lots of signets everywhere.

[clavio]

Turn 1, Lotus Petal, Forbidden Orchard, Oath, go
Turn 2, get Iona + Painter's Servant

GG? =D

No, because you will oath into your painter servants since they are creatures.

[menace13]

It would not be safe to unban it. Not only does it use less spell slots- 7 in total- than Sneak Attack-16-, Hive Mind-18+- and Reanimator-20+-, but the deck can play Jaces and a ton of disruption/cantrips to protect and find whatever it needs. Also it can be a sideboard plan for almost any combo deck. Dragon's Breath gives a one turn window to deal with Oath or lose.

[Solaran_X]

Reasons:
1. Spell Snare

2. Leyline of Sanctity

3. first turn Show and Tell into Emrakul or Hive Mind + Pact is more broken than a second turn Akroma or Razia(?)

4. Grafdigger's Cage

Turn 1) Forbidden Orchard, Mox (Chrome imprinting anything or Diamond tossing a land) or Lotus Petal, get 1G, cast Oath and opponent gets a 1/1 Spirit
Turn 2) Trigger Oath, flip Dragon Breath and then Blightsteel, Blightsteel comes into play and triggers Dragon Breath, swing with a 12/11 Haste Trample Infect for the win. Or Emrakul and entirely wipe their board while dealing 16 damage to them and ensuring they have no way to cast O-Ring next turn.

No thanks. I love Oath in Vintage, but keep it banned in Legacy.

[Richard Cheese]

Nah it's cool guys, we'll all just board 4x Greater Gargadon.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That was old extended, circa Scourge era. Oath was a marginal deck a best. It didn't win via fatties, it did win with... Battlefield Scrounger. Yes, seriously, Battlefield Scrounger into Time Warp loop. It played also Horn of greed and a singleton capsize. This was when Tinker could tinker in Phyrexian Colossus at best, and maindecked Crumbling Sanctuary and Phyrexian Processor (well processor was actually good) and Upheaval.

I think the fatties of choice back then were Verdant Force, Iridescent Angel and Akroma had been just printed.

EDIT: thinking about it, how stupid are the new fatties? They basically never get hardcasted in any format and just make old cards retarded. I mean, Vengevine i can understand, Baneslayer Angel too, but cards like Progenitus? They can be casted only cheated in, they're basically "LOL i win" cards and nothing more. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel. 6 or 7 mana is pushing it for hardcasting even in decks with moxens and workshop. MUD maybe.
Cards like Iridescent Angel or Verdant were fatties that dictated the flow of the game, but weren't retarded. Spells really should just cost 7 or 8 at max, anything more is just begging to be broken by stupid interactions and never actually casted. I mean, what the most a competitive spell got played and harcasted? T&N i guess.
For creatures Titans and Broodmate were/are widely played in formats. Angel of Despair and Akroma, angel of Wrathsaw actual play in solar flare too, but it was one of the slowest Standard ever, with Ravnica bouncelands and lots of signets everywhere.

In all fairness Emrakul has been hardcasted plenty of times, see Mono-Green Eldrazi in T2. Progenitus though? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if no one has ever hardcasted a Progenitus in an REL 2+ event.

[Bahamuth]

Aside from the strategy that emidln just described, the danger of Oath is not that it invalidates just all agrro, but also all aggro-control decks. Why would you run aggro-control if you can drop all your creatures and replace them with 4 Oath, 1 big guy and some cantrips? It's actually pretty similar to Flash. All you got to do is resolve a 2cc spell to win you the game.

[264505]

I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel.

I've played Blightsteel in draft once, but most of the time i just cheat it into play with Forgemaster.

[DragoFireheart]

The problem with Oath is not so such Oath itself but the fact that one could easily stick Oath in some Countershell along with Show and Tell and make a deck that's makes it far too easy to get a 15/15 in play by turn 2-3.

[Freggle]

. I doubt anyone hardcasted Blighsteel and Darksteel.

I've played Blightsteel in draft once, but most of the time i just cheat it into play with Forgemaster.

I play a Shape Anew in Standard with splicers (like Blade Splicer), Timely Reinforcements, Day of Judgements in a control shell... and I hard cast Blightsteel Colossus all the time.

It’s just funny to have both a Wing Splicer and a Blightsteel Colossus in play at the same time given that Blightsteel is a Golem.

[death]

The problem with Oath is not so such Oath itself but the fact that one could easily stick Oath in some Countershell along with Show and Tell and make a deck that's makes it far too easy to get a 15/15 in play by turn 2-3.

Easy or not, there are already decks out there that are capable of winning on turn 2-3 with or without Emrakul just as easy. How about a turn 2 Sneak Attack? Turn 2 Painter? Iona on turn 2? I mean Oath is not the only deck that invalidates aggro strategies, just sayin'

Well I guess a turn 1-2 Charbelcher/Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

[lorddotm]

Well I guess a turn 1 Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

That is more acceptable than anything in Magic.

[Tao]

Razia and Akroma? This is not 2003. Emrakul is a better choice. In Vintage a chain of Rune Scarred Demons is also popular but how it would exactly be optimized in Legacy is not important, there are many possibilites, Emrakul being the easiest. What is important is that it would be multiple times better than Razia and Akroma.

The first problem and major with Oath is that it is a Combo that requires the Combo player to play very few Combo cards. Basically just 4 Oaths and 3 creatures. Orchard is an okay land and it isn't even needed in 2/3 of the matchups. This leaves a ton of room for draw and protection, far more than any other Combo deck so Oath can easily find solutions to the suggested hate cards. Look what jank Reanimator which tries a similar thing has to play: Eight creatures, four Exhume, four Reanimate, three Animate Dead. That are 19 dead cards plus four bad cards in Careful Study. This gives Oath four full playsets additional search, protection and disruption compared to an already existing Deck to Beat.

The second problem is that despite its resiiance Oath can be as brutal as Belcher in terms of speed if you get the right hand. You could argue if Oath actually wants Lotus Petals but if someone decides he wants them then he will certainly score a good number of turn 1 kills, some with FoW backup.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Easy or not, there are already decks out there that are capable of winning on turn 2-3 with or without Emrakul just as easy. How about a turn 2 Sneak Attack? Turn 2 Painter? Iona on turn 2? I mean Oath is not the only deck that invalidates aggro strategies, just sayin'

Well I guess a turn 1-2 Charbelcher/Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

Are you trolling or did you not notice that most of the "TURN 2" combos you listed up there cost upwards of 5 mana. The one that breaks that mold is Reanimator that costs 2-3 mana and requires about 10 reanimation spells and 8+ discard outlets to operate correctly.

Oath might as well say "If your opponent controls a creature during your upkeep you win the game" . The "enabler" is a land that produces rainbow mana for the cost of giving your opponent 1/1s in a deck that typically plans on winning either in one swing or with a 15/15 annihilator. Oath basically takes 5-6 slots in a deck and costs 2 mana unless you count replacing 4 lands in your deck with rainbow lands as taking up slots.

[betterthenandrew]

Easy or not, there are already decks out there that are capable of winning on turn 2-3 with or without Emrakul just as easy. How about a turn 2 Sneak Attack? Turn 2 Painter? Iona on turn 2? I mean Oath is not the only deck that invalidates aggro strategies, just sayin'

Well I guess a turn 1-2 Charbelcher/Grapeshot is more acceptable. *shrug*

This has to be trolling. Oath costs 2 mana and requires 1 or 2 fatties in the deck while Sneak Attack requires 5 mana and a fattie in hand, AND that still can just die to no disruption from the opponent (have seen someone shoot their load t2 to Emrakul the opponent, shuffle back in the emrakul and never draw another fattie or lose their red source).
People bitch about Show and Tell, which costs 1 more, and is symetrical (can randomly lose to O Ring, sower etc), AND requires you to have drawn the second combo piece.

[Kich867]

And requires you to have drawn the second combo piece.

^ This is pretty much why the card shouldn't be unbanned. The simple fact that you don't actually need to draw the other portion of the combo inherently makes this too powerful. It will never be symmetrical and it requires nothing but the 2 mana putting it in play in order to win.

Put it in a bant shell. Now you have tutors, protection package, ways to get it out of the graveyard if shit hits the fan, etc.

It'd be way too good. I'd almost be more OK with it if it read "If your opponent has more creatures than you at the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a creature from your hand into play." At least then you'd have some other thing that you need to have in your hand already.