So i wanted to play around with some of the new cards and wanted to see what i could do with them. This is in no way polished or finalized but i have run it a few times and there are some things it does really well, and some great synergies. I think there is some potential here for a fun and somewhat competitive deck that i wouldn't be embarrassed to jam in a local tournament, also BRAINS!.
So here is my initial list, and i'll follow with a few potential ideas and thoughts about card choices after. I love recursion and beat down so that is really what i wanted to do with this list. This list is a lot faster and resilient than it looks on paper, it's easy enough to kill people on turn 4 with this and it doesn't mind going into the late game either as there are a lot of things it can do going long.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Bloodghast
3 Rotting Rats
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Shriekmaw
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Bombardment
4 Dark Ritual
4 Badlands
8 Black Fetch Lands
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
SB (still rough)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Withered Wretch
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Dystopia
3 Red Elemental Blast
This deck has quite a few nice synergies, it can be really aggressive and burn people out quite easily, the obvious combo of Bombardment with bloodghasts and Gravecrawler is nice, but don't underestimate the Carrion Feeder, it's really really easy to just spend a turn getting that guy up to a 6/6 or bigger and just smashing face. There aren't' any wastelands in here which may look odd for an aggro control list, the rational being that you really have good uses for all your mana every turn and with the casting costs of some of your creatures you really don't want to stumble on colourless mana, the phyrexian tower might get the cut, but i want to try out one.
Some odd looking card choices:
Shriekmaw: this could be terminate, the new tragic slip, GFTT, or any other removal around, i went with maw's cause they combo well with Feeder and Bombardment, also they can kill an Emerakul. It's possible that this is the wrong choice and it should be something instant speed, but there are a few upsides to this guy so i'm going to test him more and see if he is a liability or not. Hard casting him isn't out of the question either with the rituals in here.
Rotting Rats: These guys have very little draw back for you in here with all the grave recursion guys, and they add to your disruption suite and to your zombie count (which isn't actually all that high). Maybe something a little more aggressive would be better or withered wretches to disrupt in a different way. They have played out better than i thought they would, it's really easy to reduce someone to playing off the top with a rat and a therapy. They may get cut going forward but they do have a lot of synergy and have been decent. It's possible just living with a lower zombie count and going with hymns is better.
Abyssal Persecutor: I'm going with persecutors over Obliterators cause of the extra point of power, maybe that's wrong. There is a lot of direct damage in here and with things like bombardment every extra point counts, it's possible that having a big fatty isn't necessary at all, maybe something like Anathemancer should get in here instead, but i like the persecutor and getting a quick one off a Dark Rit is always good.
Goblin Bombardment: It may look weird to have four of this over the fourth bolt, but the reason being that you really want that permanent sac outlet on the table, it turns every spare mana or extra fetch land into damage in here, and you don't want your first one countered or discarded only to be digging for another. You can pitch extras to Rats, and there are matches where you really really want to get one down ASAP as the gravecrawler machine gun will just kill certain strategies.
There are a lot of cards i want to try out that i'll have to test. Lilliana looks pretty spicy here, but i don't know how many 3 drops i can realistically squeeze in here, and there are matches where i could see her being meh, obviously she's stronger than rotting rats, but the rats being 2 drop zombies is relevant for a lot of reasons. Hymn is always a consideration for any mostly black deck, i just felt that the targeted discard would be more relevant here, maybe that's wrong. Maybe i have too much creature removal in here and should just be playing more discard. Smallpox warrants some consideration but with no other LD and with wanting a bunch of mana in play i don't think it will work out, i think i would include liliana before pox.
The sideboard is rough and i'm open to suggestions, obviously people are going to bring in grave hate against this, and i don't know what the best plan to mitigate that is, sure i can ignore it to some extent and just beat down, but it does cripple some of your reach, artifact and spell hate are obviously way easier to deal with than a leyline, but i don't see a lot of people rocking leylines at the moment.
The ingot chewers seem reasonable, they have that extra creature synergy like shriekmaw, and only costing 1 mana is nice.
I sort of want to run some contamination's in here, but they make me more vulnerable to grave hate in post board games so it's probably not happening, bloodmoon isn't where i want to be eithe
Since you're going sacrifice-happy, how about a green splash for Fecundity?
I don't know if it's really worth to splash for, but on the paper, it looks extremely synergestic with your game plan.
I kind of want Goblin Bombardment to be Reckless Abandon, since you can only do it twice per Undying guy at most and even stuff like Bloodghast, you probably just want bang for your buck instead of being recursive and slow?
Fecundity is super fun times, but i'm not sure if there is enough pay off to use that card advantage, if i'm shooting down their stuff they are drawing cards too which isn't exciting. The other thing is there is already a lot of CA in this list just with the recursion so i'm not sure drawing cards is what i want to do. Green would give you a solution to leylines which is nice but i don't know if i want anything in the maindeck and to sacrifice the manabase.Originally Posted by Barook
I think bombardment has a lot more value, being able to spread out the damage over turns and to different targets. Also if you are up against any creature based deck getting gravecrawler and bombardment is just game over, like vs maverick, you can shoot down anything but knight. Even against batterskulls all you need is 4 mana to keep it in check, for the rest of the game.
I think if you wanted just a one shot you might as well just play chain lightnings, cause they don't have a drawback. Sorcery speed also doesn't impress me out of abandon.
I see no Volrath's Stronghold or Unholy Grotto. This is wrong.
Your probably right, for the shriekmaw interaction alone, and i should cut the tower for a stronghold. I really don't think i can support more than 1 or 2 colourless lands in here just cause i really want to hit the 2 drop 3 drops that are all black mana. The other solution would be to run the full set of urborgs but that seems risky without poxes.
I was looking at something along a similar theme, and Ashen Ghoul seemed like a decent possibility as did Zombie Infestation. Smallpox is another way to abuse the recursion effect. Carnival of Souls is also potentially cute.
ReAnimator, I have been thinking of this also. There seems to be a lot of room for innovation thanks to Gravecrawler. Some thoughts:
Going way back, Veteran's Voice may be pretty good on a Carrion Feeder. You just have to tap the Gravecrawler before you sacrifice it. On turn 3, you can attack with a 13/9 Carrion Feeder by spending [mana]BBB[/mana]. EDIT: I think I misremembered Veteran's Voice. Scratch that.
If that sounds too comboriffic, you could simply replace Goblin Bombardment with Blasting Station to end a commitment to red. How important is burn?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
The two big problems with blasting station that i see are that 1 it costs more mana, and 2 it's a lot more restrictive to use. If you are in combat and bash in with a bunch of bloodghasts and gravecrawlers, and they block a bunch you don't really get any value out of your station, it leaves you way more open to getting your recursive guys swords as well.
I don't know if red is the optimal splash, but i think it's better than anything else just cause of bombardment.
If i were to try this out in modern i'd definitely go with blasting station but without cabal therapy i doubt this would have any legs in that format. I could run mindslash there but it's probably just way to pricey and still worse than lilly.
Turn into combo deck:
Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler (with another zombie on board) + any spell with storm = good game
Add the usual Gamble, Intuition (fetch 3 Gravecrawler), Force of Will (for combo protection) etc. into the pot. (I don't have to tell you guys how to build a combo deck, right? )
Too bad Skullclamp is banned in Legacy...
It can even be simpler than that, i.e.:
Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler + Diregraf Captain = 3 card combo > 4 card combo = gg
In addition, if you keep the aggro flavor, Diregraf Captain isn't a dead card in your hand when the other combo pieces are missing.
Sounds interesting, especially considering Diabolic Intent is basically a Demonic Tutor in this deck.
Entomb might also be an interesting tutor option, although more limited - and too much reliance on the GY hurts.
I'm aware of the infinite combos, that doesnt' mean they aren't awful.
I really don't want to touch that in here, as Phyrexian Alter does STONE NOTHING in this deck except when you assemble voltron. I'd much rather have decent synergies and cards that are independently useful.
If you want to build an awful 3 or 4 card combo deck be my guest but that's not what i want to be doing in here i see zero incentives to do so. If you added the combo you'd have to add a bunch of other support cards too. Why would you want to play this combo over any of the 2 card combos in the meta? how would it make the deck better? it makes no sense to play those cards.
I want to be a fast beatdown deck with good disruption, some reach to close out the game, good synergies, and a decent long game strategy if the game gets taken into the deep water.
I also don't want to go into 3 colours if i don't have to, the new UB lord is cool but i don't think he is powerful enough, and if i add blue where do i stop adding blue cards? brainstorm daze ponder? where is the room? I suppose if there was something super amazing in a third colour i could be persuaded but i haven't found anything yet.
1 card i've been contemplating is Mutavault, as it works well with the grave crawler if you dont' have a zombie, but again it hurts that it's a colourless land.
Any ideas about what is an optimal sideboard or at least things i should consider for this meta? There is a big legacy tournament coming up in my area in a few weeks and i'm probably going to rumble this regardless of whether or not it is polished, it's just too fun.
Granted, it's your deck, so if you want it to be aggro and not combo, it's your choice. (Our inner Johnys were just thinking out loud, as we read that you're using Gravecrawler)
That doesn't mean that the combo couldn't become aggro, though. And even if a card seems awful for a certain archetype by itself (i.e. Phyrexian Altar), but if it has so much potential to become a centerpiece of a deck, then it might be too unfortunate to ignore.
Examples:
- Khabal Ghoul (Also a zombie. I might spell it wrong though, because of the "à") + Gravecrawler/Phyrexian Altar. It costs one black mana and one end of turn to become a ~/~, as many times as you repeat the said combo. Even without the altar, but with Carrion Feeder instead, both Khabal Ghoul & Carrion Feeder will become as big as how much black mana you pay to re-cast Gravecrawler. (play Carrion Feeder first and Gravecrawler last, in case they try to Sword to Plowshares your Gravecrawler)
- Carnival of Souls + Gravecrawler/Phyrexian Altar is basically a black Channel, I think we could think of some ways to use that much mana (and storm counters), right? (Tendrils of Agony, anyone? Even if you only have 5 life left, repeating the combo 4 times to cast Tendrils means 10 lifegain for you and 10 lifelost to your opp. Which aggro deck doesn't appreciate this?)
- And Diregraf Captain is quite powerful enough, the lesson from the banning of Disciple of the Vault in Affinity (in its Standard & Extended glory) should have taught us that. Aggro is not defined by combat damage alone. Perhaps even Sheperd of Rot can deal the finishing damage.
And do we normally blindly put forceofwill brainstorm daze ponder in every blue deck? I'd do that only if it helps me to reach the goal faster. For example, if the deck centerpiece is definitely Gravecrawler, then we'd perhaps want to fetch three of them via Intuition. (which brings them to an awkward position of having to both remove the Gravecrawlers in your graveyard and on your hand)
As for the other blue cards, I have to check their sinergy with the deck first, before blindly maindecking them.
EDIT: I might still want to at least sideboard Force of Will, though, due to the existence of Grafdigger's Cage.
Like said, it's your deck, and so in the end, it falls to your decision.
I dunno man. Considering that Diregraf Captain is both a combo enabler and a right spiffy Zombie lord all on its own. It is hard for opponents to sideboard against a deck that is both a real aggro deck and also a real combo deck with real disruption. Those are some really creative ideas you are dismissing. After all, good decks play good cards, or so they say. Why not Blue?
4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Bloodghast
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Blasting Station
1 Phyrexian Altar
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
3 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
4 Island
There. A nice, typical Legacy shell to start from. Totally untested, but it will certainly be decent just because it is formulaic.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Ok agreed dismissing blue is wrong, and the captain is pretty sweet, certainly better than vengeful dead! not that that was a real option.
Even if we are on captain i don't think that gives us many incentives to really be on altar as well. If i did want to go with captain i would want a lot more zombie incentives than the 12 in your list Finn, that just isn't enough pay off i think you would want a bunch of brain eaters. Without going infinite the captain is just fine as a burn spell, but i don't know if he's actually better than bombardment. Bombardment, can totally destroy maverick, stoneforge UW and delver decks, captain not pumping or interacting with bloodghast is a bit of a drawback unfortunately. I totally like the card but i'm not sold on his applications here.
Blue just for intuition why not just stay black and run burried alive or entomb? if you go that route you are just running a less good version of reanimator or ooze combo if you are all in on tutors, and you are running support spells that don't help your primary game plan and also opening yourself up to more grave disruption.
I could certainly see a couple of tutors just as extra card advantage and gas but i'm not sure it's necessary. If i go with a couple entombs is it worth going for a few silver bullets? is there anything worth running? darkblast is pretty unnecessary.
@neoryujin
your ideas are certainly creative, but again why would i want to jam a bunch of narrow and useless cards like carnival of souls plus a storm card just to have a combo with no support in an aggro deck? Like why not play painter or helm line or sneak and tell or anything else that is just a better combo and better on their own?
Also your comment about non combat damage winning games is sort of nonsensical considering i have Bombardment, Bolt, and Messenger that all don't use the combat step that is like half the point of this deck is that it can beat down hard and burn people out. What are you implying here with this statement?
Finn's list does not have enough zombies in it. I know because I just tested it a bunch of times. Even so, I just ordered my four Gravecrawlers. I beat up UR Delver, Elves, and my friend's u-w control.
You guys are on to something here.
Finn's list, while unoptimized, certainly looks interesting.
Although the disruption suit could be improved. Not running Cabal Therapy in this kind of deck sounds like a crime. Depending on the blue count, FoW might also be an option.
What would you suggest?
Intuition vs Buried Alive:
- instant vs sorcery
- buried alive paints a target to your graveyard, intuition paints two targets (your graveyard and the gravecrawler on your hand. If you're going the combo road, you actually only need one gravecrawler to do the job, so separating them in two zones makes them more difficult to disrupt)
- intuition can be fetched to force of will
As to my comment: "Aggro is not defined only by combat damage", I was refering to the Captain's easily ignored power-level of his last ability. I was illustrating the example with disciple of the vault, since back on those days, it was common that affinity only needed to do more than half of the needed damage, and just sacrifice everything to Arcbound Ravager to finish it, thanks to Disciple of the Vault. This was not due to combat damage (it wasn't even direct damage, it was losing life, same as the Captain)
As to your comment : "Why don't you play [insert a competitive deck of your choice here, to silence other opinion] instead?"
I think you know why. Because even though we don't know for sure, we felt this pull from the card or the idea that compels us to try it. It may go well, or it might not, but considering the joy of exploring new possibilities, does it really matter "if it loses to Reanimator/TES/Thopter combo/...?"
Would you also prefer most comments to your thread to be "Why don't you play Zoo/Maverick/Team America/New Horizons/... instead?"
I don't think we are seeing eye to eye on our comments to each other.
Here is the thing, there are multiple 2 card combos in this format. Suggesting that i play a 3+ card combo where some of the individual pieces have zero utility or use out side of the combo isn't useful discussion it's casual land. If each piece is good on it's own and works well in a combo then i would be all for it, but making suggestions like running tendrils in an aggro list or carnival of souls, isn't useful discussion it's just nonsense.
There are multiple combos that can be played with gravecrawler, but all of them are 3+ cards, and would need support cards like card drawing and tutoring to even be considered, i personally don't think that's the best way to build around a 2/1 for 1. Until then i'm trying to make a disruptive aggro deck with late game staying power. Maybe that's stupid of me. My position is that there is zero incentive of running a combo version of a gravecrawler deck, feel free to prove me wrong but carnival of souls isn't going to sway me.
Your whole tone is pretty condescending. Giving me a history lesson on ravager affinity? explaining why an instant is better than a sorcery? come on guy.
As for why i don't play aggro deck X instead, unlike playing a bad combo compared to a good one i think this has legitimate reasons to be played instead of zoo or maverick, mainly black for discard, and having a repeatable damage source to over power other creature decks. I'm not saying this is better than those decks by any means but the reasons for running a deck like this are valid if you want a way to interact with combo and control decks more. Saying this is straight inferior to TA or the Gate would be a valid criticism as those are disruptive black based decks, i think this could have strengths that those decks don't provide and i'm willing to explore that, maybe this will prove to just be inferior and i'll abandon it but for now i'm willing to try it out.
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