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Thread: R/u/x Blue Sligh

  1. #201
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Woah, lot's of discussion going on in here. I like it.

    First of all, as a quick tidbit to the Sligh vs Burn debate...

    I agree that this is basically a better Burn deck, which I've already said several times in the thread. Just because this deck runs less Burn spells, doesn't mean it that it draws less burn spells. Brainstorm is the most powerful card in the Legacy format, period. Cutting 4 shitty burn spells for 4 Brainstorm is a massive improvement to the "burn" archetype. In fact, back about 2 years ago, I actually built a R/u Burn that splashed blue for 4 Brainstorm (as my only blue spell).

    Secondly, why would I ever want to cast inefficient creatures like Hellspark Elemental, when I could cast Delver instead? My creatures are more efficient damage dealers for their p/t to cost ratio, and easily have the potential to do more total damage on top of that.

    As I also said before, there is absolutely no reason for Burn to be a DTB right now when this deck is not, in terms of tier quality. The only reason it's not is because of it's lack of popularity.

    Moving on...

    Thunderous Wrath looks pretty good. I like and dislike the card, although I agree that 2 is probably the correct number. Drawing it in the opener sucks, but topdecking it in the midgame is pretty good. I'm not sure if I'd want to cut 2 Bears or 2 Lavamancers for it, but I still think 3 Fireblast is the right number.

    I also want to point out that Magma Jet does nothing to improve the card (and neither does Ponder). You either draw the card and cast it for R, or it's stuck in your hand. Neither Magma Jet nor Ponder fix this problem, only Brainstorm does.

    On a final note... keep the discussion going. :)
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  2. #202
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    It's fine, if you don't want to drop the discussion about the similarity between Burn and Sligh, but then let me add some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    The only two decks that pray on non-basics are RUG Tempo (which people have been dropping stifle out of rapidly if you take a quick peek at their thread, so this isn't a definite concern anymore) and you, burn. Which we can play around POP all day because the deck can still win on turn 3 fetching basics (I regularly do this with UR Delver).
    Stifle and Canadian Threshold is still heavily played in Europe (the continent Austria is on). Burn too, because it is a working budget deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    Even the idea that our manabase is something different or foreign is kind of comical, this deck should be able to operate on basics just fine. The manabase isn't a point of contention, even burn can run fetches and regularly does (and probably should to support Grim Lavamancer).
    Fetchlands != Duals. Wastelands see more play than Stifle and the manabase IS an essential part of the decks, so why not take them into account? PoP makes heavy usage of the manabase, which plays a central part in Burn's strategy (given that I look closer at the game plan and not boil it down). Plus I don't think this deck would be as good if it didn't play any duals (not saying it would be bad...but playing a Goblin Guide T1 while Dazing something wouldn't be possible).

    Now we are back to "You think it's the same strategy, I don't. That's it, we are all entitled to our opinion because we emphasize different things.". :/

    Oh and please stop calling me "Burn" and yourself "Sligh" (you refered to Burn as "you" and to sligh as "us"). I like this deck more than Burn, so it's foolish and sounds like you are just blindly talking about the love of your life without even noticing what's going on around you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    As I also said before, there is absolutely no reason for Burn to be a DTB right now when this deck is not, in terms of tier quality. The only reason it's not is because of it's lack of popularity.
    "DTB" takes into account the popularity, which is relevant for metagame analysis. So there is nothing wrong with it, even if there are stronger decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Thunderous Wrath looks pretty good. I like and dislike the card, although I agree that 2 is probably the correct number. Drawing it in the opener sucks, but topdecking it in the midgame is pretty good. I'm not sure if I'd want to cut 2 Bears or 2 Lavamancers for it, but I still think 3 Fireblast is the right number.

    I also want to point out that Magma Jet does nothing to improve the card (and neither does Ponder). You either draw the card and cast it for R, or it's stuck in your hand. Neither Magma Jet nor Ponder fix this problem, only Brainstorm does.
    I will definitely try to replace the Bears, because they are the only thing I don't like about your list. ^^

    Magma Jet doesn't help triggering Miracle, but it helps us getting the spell faster (as in "increasing the possibility") in top-deck mode.

  3. #203

    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Fetchlands != Duals. Wastelands see more play than Stifle and the manabase IS an essential part of the decks, so why not take them into account? PoP makes heavy usage of the manabase, which play a central part in Burn's strategy. Plus I don't think this deck would be as good if it didn't play any duals (not saying it would be bad...).

    Oh and please stop calling me "Burn" and yourself "Sligh" (you refered to Burn as "you" and to sligh as "us"). I like this deck more than Burn, so it's foolish and sounds like you are just blindly talking about the love of your life without even noticing what's going on around you.
    Ok, so Sligh doesn't fetch duals. They fetch basics. The gameplan and functionality is still the same. I already addressed this concern--both UR and WUR sligh can function and win on turn 3 fetching only basics. The dual lands aren't part of the strategy, they make the deck more flexible when it can be--if you knew more about the decks (at least UR) you'd know that fetching duals is something you try to avoid.

    Much like flame rift, which hits you for four (god forbid price of progress hits you for 2 or 4!), hitting yourself with PoP is fine because your opponent is dying faster, a lot faster. Note, I generally cast PoP and in response fireblast my nonbasics away if I'm actually in fear of dying from the damage.

    But the bottom line is, how can duals possibly be the differentiating factor when they aren't even necessary to the deck's turn 3 or turn 4 win?

    I don't know why you made such a comment at the end either--I don't even play this deck. I play UR, which functions under similar principles and has a less consistent turn 3 win because I don't own a tundra and don't intend to buy one. Moreso I play Nic Fit which is hardly a fast deck anyways..

    The burn strategy is just one that intrigues me. This deck is currently the strongest burn deck around so I'm inclined to look into it.

  4. #204
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    while the 5 damage is awesome, i've always felt that running potential dead cards in sligh goes against the deck's philosophy of efficiency. that's why i've always hated searing blaze, for example.

    still 5 damage is 5 damage. and with brainstorm in the deck, we should probably give it a shot.
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  5. #205
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    You could avoid having the dead draws by playing something like Pyrokinesis. It can clear the board of blockers. Though the deck would be playing a lot more like Sligh than Burn in that case. I agree though. Its probably a 2'of at best and won't replace Fireblast.
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  6. #206
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    I've been throwing this deck around a little bit and just wanted to add something to the Thunderous Wrath debate. I could see Wrath replacing 1 Rift Bolt, 1 Magma Jet. It does the same thing as Rift Bolt just a turn faster. As for Magma Jet you could get away with 3 just fine.
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  7. #207
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Actually, I've already cut down to 3 Magma Jet. I'm pretty confident that 3 Jet is the correct number.
    Sligh
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  8. #208

    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Hanni, what is your current list?
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  9. #209
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Actually, I've already cut down to 3 Magma Jet. I'm pretty confident that 3 Jet is the correct number.
    But you also play Bear and I do not. Not a fan of it.
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  10. #210
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    It's actually not bad. I haven't even run into the problem of it getting Dark Blasted or something which wouldn't kill it. Tarfire, Bolt, Chain, Magma Jet.. The kill spells in Legacy all kill it either way. Its just U for a 2/2 with a drawback that is rarely relevant.

    Reach spells might be better in its place though.
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  11. #211
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Is this card good?

    Vexing Devil R
    Creature - Devil

    When Vexing Devil enters the Battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a players does, sacrifice Vexing Devil

    4/3

    I don't know where to fit them in, honestly. Lynx, Delver, and Guide are better than it, and I'm not cutting my Lavamancers. I also don't feel comfortable cutting burn for creatures, so...
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  12. #212
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Quote Originally Posted by kicks_422 View Post
    Is this card good?

    Vexing Devil R
    Creature - Devil

    When Vexing Devil enters the Battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a players does, sacrifice Vexing Devil

    4/3

    I don't know where to fit them in, honestly. Lynx, Delver, and Guide are better than it, and I'm not cutting my Lavamancers. I also don't feel comfortable cutting burn for creatures, so...
    Uh... this card IS burn, not a creature. Wizard basically printed a 4 damage Lava Spike. Definitely a 4-of for any Sligh/Burn deck for its sheer power/cost ratio.
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  13. #213

    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Quote Originally Posted by kicks_422 View Post
    Is this card good?

    Vexing Devil R
    Creature - Devil

    When Vexing Devil enters the Battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a players does, sacrifice Vexing Devil

    4/3

    I don't know where to fit them in, honestly. Lynx, Delver, and Guide are better than it, and I'm not cutting my Lavamancers. I also don't feel comfortable cutting burn for creatures, so...
    I would cut lavamancers in a heartbeat for this card..

  14. #214
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    OMFG is Wizards serious? R for 4 dmg, R for 5 dmg? I think they are seriously trying to push Burn in Standard or something. That's great news for Legacy Blue Sligh, which is awesome.

    Obviously, the Bears in my list become Vexing Devil's. If they take the 4, that's 2 swings worth of Bears. If they don't, it's a 4 power 1 drop.
    Sligh
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    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  15. #215

    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    OMFG is Wizards serious? R for 4 dmg, R for 5 dmg? I think they are seriously trying to push Burn in Standard or something. That's great news for Legacy Blue Sligh, which is awesome.

    Obviously, the Bears in my list become Vexing Devil's. If they take the 4, that's 2 swings worth of Bears. If they don't, it's a 4 power 1 drop.
    Would there be any argument to dropping steppe lynx for him? Steppe lynx is only conditionally a 4/5, and while it survives more stuff (sort of, only when attacking), it's not always a 4/5, where this is always a 4/3, in the color of mana that one would want when playing this deck.

  16. #216
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    Well, I still think Lynx is a better creature.

    The thing with this is that it's either a R for 4 dmg spell if they don't have removal/blockers (which is fantastic, don't get me wrong), or a 4/3 when they have an answer.

    Lynx, on the other hand, frequently does 8 dmg for W.

    The Vexing Devil definitely belongs in this deck in some numbers, but I'm not sure how many, and it's not a replacement for Delver, Guide, or Lynx.
    Sligh
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    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  17. #217
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    That's it.
    I'm going to proxy this deck.
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  18. #218
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    I was just about to ask if splashing for Lynx is still worth it if Red already has access to a 4-power 1-drop.

    The more I thought about it, I stand firm on what I said that Lynx, Delver, and Guide are still the top three creatures, just as Hanni already said.

    I've won countless games on the back of Lavamancer alone, mostly on situations wherein an attacker won't push through, so I definitely have a soft spot for him.

    Here's my MD:

    18 lands

    4 Steppe Lynx
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Grim Lavamancer

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Magma Jet
    3 Price of Progress
    3 Fireblast
    4 Brainstorm
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  19. #219
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    @kicks_422
    In your list I would rather play 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Ponder in place of Magma Jet. For its cost:effect ratio you're realy losing a lot of tempo that could be used to either find gas or clear blockers. At 2 mana however, that's too slow to maintain a good aggressive position. I like especially that it can nail a lot of the format's early game creatures that could provide the deck with some hindrance (Delver, Mom, Hierarch).
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  20. #220
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    Re: R/u/x Blue Sligh

    It could be a ploy to get people to buy packs whilst getting into a relatively cheap deck in an eternal format. Who knows..


    All I know is god DAYUM. The question is how do you treat this 'creature' because half the time its going to be a reach spell when you want a creature, and a creature when you want a reach spell. Luckily, this deck plays Daze and Brainstorm so we draw it when we want it more so than Mono-red.

    I know that I mentioned Proclamation of Rebirth before and it was discarded as no better than, say, Sulfuric Vortex. But if you are going to play Sulfuric Vortex at 1RR you really might want to give this another look given Vexing Devil. Like... imagine a graveyard of Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil, Vexing Devil. 2W for 2/2, x2 4/3... What do you guys think?
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