R/u/x Blue Sligh

[Hanni]

Yes the path , cant go to the opponents head , but at least is a real answer vs goyf and KOR , two of the most played creatures, i think the deck has problems vs resolved goyfs/kor , (maybe not?) , the helix is absolutely devasting against burn/zoo/ur burn/mirror , i just dont like magma jet , is an overcosted shock , but i dont know after all you are the creator of the deck and you have tested with it a lot.

On the other hand , what about mental note? , it helps the lavamancer plan , and replace itself

The deck doesn't need a real answer to those creatures. Steppe Lynx is going to be larger than either of those creatures when it swings on turns 2 and 3, Delver flies over both of them, and Grim Lavamancer doesn't need to attack to do damage. The soonest Goyf and Knight are attacking is turn 3, and that's if the opponent has a mana dork that I don't hit with burn (in Knight's case). Goyf rarely attacks as a 4/5 on turn 3, and usually Knight swings as a 5/5 on turn 4. My deck has a turn 3-4 goldfish, and even against removal or countermagic, can still race Goyf and Knight.

I agree that Helix would be great in the mirrors like Burn and Zoo.

Mental Note is awful. This deck has more than enough fodder for Grim Lavamancer already with 12 fetchlands, 4 Brainstorm, and the large density of burn. Library manipulation is incredibly important for Delver flips, consistency with Lynx, and overall consistency (not mana flooding, not running out of gas, not drawing useless Lynx in the midgame, etc).

[Hanni]

So here's what ive learned through 6 months of testing blue zoo for an hour or 3 a day.

Just as an aside before I respond to your list, I'd like to point out the beginning of my opening post. I've also playtested Blue Zoo pretty extensively. The lists that run Tarmogoyf and countermagic are different fundamentally from this deck.

1) Maverick is a hard mu, your only win con is to burn them out. Play POP. I found that even in blue zoo, i had to play it MD, and hit myself usually for 6 to win. It really blows them out, but its hard to support in 4 colors.

Maverick is not a hard matchup. It is a bad matchup for the older Blue Zoo lists I used to run, which relied on getting there with Kird Ape's, Wild Nacatl's, and Tarmogoyf's. It was hard for those lists not only because the entire creature base was groundbound, but also because the deck was diluted with around 12 countermagic spells and a rather low burn density. This deck isn't Blue Zoo, it's Blue Sligh.

I already said this in my response to the last guy, but my gameplan doesn't change 1 bit against Maverick. I drop a guy on turn 1, maybe 1-2 guys on turn 2, I burn blockers and swing until I can't do so anymore for whatever reason, and then I burn my opponent's face off. Opposing Goyf's and Knight's don't change that gameplan.

You'd be suprised how often I play only 1 creature early, and then I play like a straight up Burn deck after that.

I don't like Price of Progress in the maindeck, because I am a 3 color deck myself, and because it doesn't blow everyone out. It's funny atcually... U/R Delver is such a well known deck now, that my opponent's often fetch basics the entire time I play them, thinking I run PoP. It's funny knowing that they are grimping their manabase to try and play around a card I'm not even running in the maindeck.

I do run 2 PoP's in my sideboard, but I rarely bring them in.

2) forked bolt is a superior fire/ice. play it, dont play fire ice.

Well, I'm not playing Fire/Ice, because my build doesn't need it. If I was playing with Wild Nacatl's and Kird Ape's, I would. And in that case, Fire/Ice is better, because it allows me to tap down a big Goyf or Knight so that I can alpha strike.

3) I don't think wl/stifle fits in our deck

You're right, they don't. This is a Sligh deck, not a Tempo deck. My goal is to do 20 damage to the opponent ASAP, not waste time disrupting the opponent.

4) I know your primer says dont play spell snare, and i agree with the rest of your "don't plays" but this one card hits sfm, tendrils deck tutors, goyfs (if youre not playing path, you'll need to snare these. Have you tested just the inclusion of snare and daze?

This isn't an aggro/control deck. It's a Sligh deck. This deck has more in common with Burn than it does with Zoo, Blue Zoo, or Canadian Thresh. In fact, I'd argue that this deck is aggro/combo more than anything else.

Spell Snare hitting SFM is irrelevant when I run a billion burn spells. Goyf is irrelevant when I can race him. Against Storm combo, I agree that Snare would be good, but it's not a maindeck card. Not counting the fact that I do run Daze maindeck, I typically go 50/50 with Storm combo. I goldfish turn 3, I disable their Ad Nauseam plan, and I can race EtW. They pretty much need to IGG or PIF to go off successfully.

I'm running 4 Spell Pierce in the sideboard for the combo matchup. I also have two flex spots in my sideboard, which are 2 Flusterstorm right now.

5) md path can sort of be argued for, dont throw it away, but it is important to consider. It can be good. I am beginning to see that the deck needs more burn to beat maverick though, so we probably don't have room.

The deck already beats Maverick, because I am running more burn. Although if I were to run a hard removal spell (which I wouldn't), I'd run Dismember instead. Path has bad synergy with my Daze's.

6) we beat rug decks, sometimes mongoose is annoing and can sneak them a few games. a single ee isnt a bad sb card agaianst them. it can also be played on three for knights, and on 0 for dumb things.

I cannot really comment here, and I have not tested EE as a sideboard card. My initial thought is that it's a bit slow, but it does deal with Chalice of the Void if nothing else, so it's worth considering.

7) we have a huge edge on grave decks, but i have md 2x ooze, which i miss dearly in this deck. Probably still an edge. (snare kills reanimator)

This just further illustrates my point that Blue Sligh and Blue Zoo are two totally different decks. This deck doesn't run 2cc creatures because they cannot even swing until turn 3. In the case of Ooze specifically, he is very slow at being aggressive. Swinging for 2 on turn 3 is unimpressive, and in order to swing for more than that, requires additional mana investment.

I beat graveyard decks by racing them. I have Crypts postboard, and I also have Spell Pierces postboard for Reanimator.

8) burn burn burn! I like it. Obviously the meta needs to change with the next set, because the top ranks are all the same 3 decks (and burn, haha) but until then we need to pop fireblast opponents to death

That's the name of the game. This is the main reason I've always preferred Sligh over Zoo.

9) the big differences between this deck and my blue zoo is 2x teeg 2x ooze. loosing snare and teeg makes us very vulnerable to batterskulls and opposing oozes ruining our days.

The biggest difference is the fundamental gameplan. I'm not running any 2cc creatures, and the only countermagic I run is Daze, which could easily be 4 more burn spells. Opposing Batterskulls and Ooze's are only a problem when I don't burn them out, which luckily, happens to be very rarely.

10) sulfuric vortex does stop them from gaining life, but i wish it cost 2. Its very debatable.

Burning their SFM, Ooze, or creature with Jitte equipped stops them from gaining life, too. Or, simply doing 20 damage to them before they can get one of those into play has the same effect. The deck has better answers to those cards than a 3cc enchantment like Sulfuric Vortex. Vortex is a valid sideboard card, but its best application is against Counterbalance decks.

[Malakai]

Steppe Lynx
It's the best burn creature of all time. The next best card is seriously Phantasmal Bear. How could you ever hold a straight face when someone asks you if you run Lynx, and you reply, "No, I cut them for Phantasmal Bear."

2cc Creatures
Yes, by all means, make life easier for me, Mr. Plays-Control-No-Matter-What. It's nice to have a target for Spell Snare.

Spell Snare, Spell Piere, Stifle
Any opponent with a brain is going to look at hyper-mana-efficient deck, then he's going to look at your untapped land, and he's going to put you on one of those cards. Then, once he's seen which one you have, he'll never run into it again. I advise against these. However, if you must run them, run 1 of each.

Sulfuric Vortex
It beats every control deck, on the off chance it resolves. All of those decks are bringing in Hydroblasts and/or Spell Pierces.

Pyroblast
Let me see if I understand your plan. You're going to take out a card that deals damage, so that you can run a card that makes sure your damage dealing card resolves?

The problem with Pyroblast is perennial. In this deck, you're bringing it in to stop Counterbalance or Show and Tell or some such. The problem arises when you consider that every time you draw it, that's 3 damage you don't have. That 3 damage usually translates into a turn that the opponent has to setup whatever it was that you were trying to stop.

Let me give an example as the CounterTop player, it's usually pretty obvious that you have it--although once in a blue moon you'll "get" me. So you leave a red up on two, instead of dropping 2 guys or cracking for Steppe Lynx damage, etc. Then, instead of casting my counterbalance, I just kill some of your guys, or counter your eot bolt. Then you go again, and once again leave up your R. On my turn 3, I drop CB, force your pyroblast, and the game is over.

This type of thing is even worse when you're trying to use K-grip or something to kill my CB.

----

The lesson here is that when you sideboard, you first need to consider if your deck is already optimized for the matchup (without being a different deck). It's okay for your plan to be "+0 cards and try to kill them again." Anything you do that slows your deck down is just playing into our hands.

[Hanni]

Malakai, I'm not sure if you were directing your comments towards me or towards the other posters. If to me, I just wanted to chime in.

I was never intending on cutting Lynx. I have no intentions of running 2cc creatures, nor would I run Stifle/Pierce/Snare maindeck. This deck already beats Control decks that don't run Counterbalance, and I've actually 2-0'd Countertop Thopters a few times on MWS so far. Lastly, I cut the REB's out of my sideboard a week ago because I never needed them.

[Malakai]

I was directing my comments at anyone running the deck. If I'm saying not to do something that you have already said you weren't going to do, well, ignore that part. For the most part I agree with your assessments.

[Tombstalker]

Hanni- great deck youve come up with man. Looking at your list on page one I cant really fault any of your choices but I do have a few questions:

Steppe lynx- obviously this deck is different than zoo and while I havent tried your list (yet) I have piloted zoo and I have encountered times when I wished lynxes 0/1 ass was bigger after his pump had worn off. With that in mind would replacing the white splash with green be better?
Not saying to change anything else in the list, just switch lynx for a set of nacatls and maybe a couple goyfs but keep the sligh strategy rather than blue zoo. Whats your experience with G vs W splash?

Also I really liked griD's inclusion of F/I although maybe not at the expense of magma jet, idk.

[Hanni]

I can understand why you might be skeptical of Lynx. I've tried to run it in both Zoo and Blue Zoo in the past with awful results. The reason why it doesn't work so well in those decks is because those decks need sustained damage dealers. This deck is different. It only cares about attacking during the first few turns of the game, at which point the deck then switches roles and becomes a burn deck. Lynx fits perfectly into this gameplan.

Fire/Ice is good in the builds running Nacatl and Kird Ape. In my build, Fire/Ice is uneccessary.

[Tombstalker]

I can understand why you might be skeptical of Lynx. I've tried to run it in both Zoo and Blue Zoo in the past with awful results. The reason why it doesn't work so well in those decks is because those decks need sustained damage dealers. This deck is different. It only cares about attacking during the first few turns of the game, at which point the deck then switches roles and becomes a burn deck. Lynx fits perfectly into this gameplan.

This actually makes perfect sense, im surprised I didnt see this earlier.

Fire/Ice is good in the builds running Nacatl and Kird Ape. In my build, Fire/Ice is uneccessary.

I guess F/I isnt necessary for the same reason that lynx is better here, i.e. switching to burn, right? Hmmm now you have me really tempted to sleeve this up instead of tempo thresh which im building atm.

[Freggle]

I can understand why you might be skeptical of Lynx. I've tried to run it in both Zoo and Blue Zoo in the past with awful results. The reason why it doesn't work so well in those decks is because those decks need sustained damage dealers. This deck is different. It only cares about attacking during the first few turns of the game, at which point the deck then switches roles and becomes a burn deck. Lynx fits perfectly into this gameplan.

Fire/Ice is good in the builds running Nacatl and Kird Ape. In my build, Fire/Ice is uneccessary.

Lynx is a BEAST! If you run white and fetches, and your deck is not control you need a very good reason not to run him.

[Basara]

Does the deck have problems against wasteland,stifle , etc mana denial plans?? , just 1 basic mountains seems dangerous to me..

[Tombstalker]

Does the deck have problems against wasteland,stifle , etc mana denial plans?? , just 1 basic mountains seems dangerous to me..

This decks curve is so incredibly low I think mana denial strategies would be ineffective barring god hands and of course a very early blood moon.

Hanni- have you tested post board against specific hate, i.e. counterbalance, CoP-red, EE/pyroclasm effects and chalice of the void? If this deck does become a DTB, hate like this is bound to result so im curious what you anticipate will be your answers. In fact Many of these types of answers are already valid SB/MB options considering the current state of legacy...that is I think they are.

[Hanni]

I guess F/I isnt necessary for the same reason that lynx is better here, i.e. switching to burn, right?

There are several factors that make Fire/Ice unecessary in my build. Fire/Ice is best in Blue Zoo, where it still wants to swing with Ape's, Nacatl's, and Goyf's in the midgame, where opponent's could have their own Goyf's, Knight's, etc to block. This deck doesn't care about swinging in the midgame, and burn is enough to removal early blockers. Delver flies over blockers, Lavamancer does direct damage, and Lynx outsizes everything in the early game (with Reanimator as an exception). The Fire aspect is useful to an extent, but Forked Bolt would be better in that regard.

Lynx is a BEAST! If you run white and fetches, and your deck is not control you need a very good reason not to run him.

I wouldn't go that far, but he is a beast in this deck.

Does the deck have problems against wasteland,stifle , etc mana denial plans?? , just 1 basic mountains seems dangerous to me..

Wasteland is a non-issue for the most part. I mean, it can occasionally screw me, but it's not consistently a problem. I run a basic Mountain which can cast the majority of my spells, and my curve is so low that it's usually not a big deal.

Mana denial plans in general aren't a big deal, but Smallpox is really bad for this deck. I've lost 0-2 both times I've faced Smallpox so far.

Stifle can be a pain in the ass, because it steals alot of tempo away. This deck doesn't want to play around the possibility of the opponent having Stifle either, for the same reason. I wouldn't say Stifle/Waste decks are a bad matchup, but making sure you keep a hand with more than 1 fetchland is crucial. 1 basic Mountain is plenty though.

Hanni- have you tested post board against specific hate, i.e. counterbalance, CoP-red, EE/pyroclasm effects and chalice of the void? If this deck does become a DTB, hate like this is bound to result so im curious what you anticipate will be your answers. In fact Many of these types of answers are already valid SB/MB options considering the current state of legacy...that is I think they are.

The only Counterbalances I've seen so far were against Countertop Thopter's. I've played against that matchup twice, and I went 2-0 both times. I can see certain Countertop builds being a nightmare; ones with SCM and 6-8 plow effects is probably a blowout (for them). The traditional Thopter's list is a fairly good matchup, though.

I've yet to see COP: Red. I do have Daze preboard to counter it, and both Delver and Lynx can still do damage. Postboard I get Disenchant, and Spell Pierce if I feel the need. Not something I want to see played against me, but I have outs. Luckily, COP: Red can be a little slow, costing 2cc to come into play, and an additional 1 mana per activation.

I've yet to see Chalice, but I'm sure it's a nightmare. Nearly my entire deck is 1cc. Hopefully I can either get a guy into play or Daze it before it lands, but if not, I'm pretty much screwed. Postboard, Spree/Disenchant will help alot. There's also the option of fitting in some EE's into my sideboard, should Chalice see more play.

For the most part, my sideboard is pretty flexible, so I'll adjust it if I start seeing alot of hate.

[Hanni]

Holy shit. I just 2-0'd Smallpox. Daze is teh nuts in that matchup. I literally won game 1 because of a turn 2 Daze on his Smallpox. In game 2, I boarded out 3 Fireblast and 1 Magma Jet for 4 Spell Pierce. That was a tough long grindy matchup, that ended up with me on 0 lands for a while, and him at 3 life. Eventually ended up hitting a land and then a Bolt to win the thing. Daze and Pierce were the only reason I was able to get him to 3 in the first place. How about that, the blue splash takes a horrid matchup for traditional Sligh and makes it alot closer to 50/50. :)

I don't think I need the Flusterstorm in the board. The maindeck is extremely tight, and I cannot really see myself cutting 6 cards from it to fit in countermagic. Maybe against combo, but even then, Daze is still good (so I wouldn't cut them), and I don't want to slow my clock down. For combo, I think I'd cut 3 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Magma Jet for 4 Spell Pierce, and that's about the extent of it.

That frees up 2 slots. I mean, those were already my flex spots, but now they are really my flex spots.

[Vacrix]

How was Pierce a factor in that Game 2 if you boarded them out?

Also, I thought I would mention some potential tech. Proclamation of Rebirth is mad card advantage, especially if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal. Reach spells might be better in general but Proc is a great topdeck if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal and/or trade against another aggro deck. Its probably more applicable to a metagame heavy with decks like The Rock, Aggro Loam, Landstill, ie. matchups that maindeck mass removal like EE and Deed.

[Hanni]

How was Pierce a factor in that Game 2 if you boarded them out?

I boarded them in. I don't maindeck Pierce.

Also, I thought I would mention some potential tech. Proclamation of Rebirth is mad card advantage, especially if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal. Reach spells might be better in general but Proc is a great topdeck if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal and/or trade against another aggro deck. Its probably more applicable to a metagame heavy with decks like The Rock, Aggro Loam, Landstill, ie. matchups that maindeck mass removal like EE and Deed.

I'm not sure, really. My creatures kinda suck after the early game, that even bringing them back isn't always that great. Midgame Lynx's stay 0/1, and Guide's get chumped, although the suprise Haste could push some damage through. Not a bad suggestion, but at 2W, I can think of alot of other spells I could run. Browbeat immediately comes to mind, since it's either 5 damage or a draw 3, which is basically gg once resolved. Sulfuric Vortex being the other one that comes to mind, since it has wider applications than just being good against removal.dec

I'll keep the idea in mind though, I'm never opposed to trying sideboard suggestions.

[Vacrix]

Well not necessarily. If your opponent just played a mass removal spell, its unlikely he is going to be able to chump your creatures. Further, consider what you'd be getting back. It won't always be Steppe Lynx's and Grim Lavamancers. x2 Goblin Guide and a Delver is a steal for 2W. Granted you won't always have a choice but if you have, say 4 creatures in your graveyard you can just pick the best three. I can see the card being difficult to sell if you are getting something like x2 Lavamancer, Lynx, but if you are getting something like x2 Lynx, Lavamancer, then you've probably already stuck a train spike through their head on the first couple turns so Proc might not even be necessary with access to Reach spells.. and Lavamancer. Sulfuric Vortex seems to slow for a deck thats so madly explosive. Lavamancer can deal 2 damage per turn in addition to whatever else you grab from the yard. Besides, if you grab x3 Lynx... your opponent will be shitting himself when you topdeck a fetchland. Just some food for thought.


EDIT:
Also, have you tested Helix in place of Magma Jet yet? I heard it discussed earlier in the thread.

[Hanni]

Well not necessarily. If your opponent just played a mass removal spell, its unlikely he is going to be able to chump your creatures. Further, consider what you'd be getting back. It won't always be Steppe Lynx's and Grim Lavamancers. x2 Goblin Guide and a Delver is a steal for 2W. Granted you won't always have a choice but if you have, say 4 creatures in your graveyard you can just pick the best three. I can see the card being difficult to sell if you are getting something like x2 Lavamancer, Lynx, but if you are getting something like x2 Lynx, Lavamancer, then you've probably already stuck a train spike through their head on the first couple turns so Proc might not even be necessary with access to Reach spells.. and Lavamancer. Sulfuric Vortex seems to slow for a deck thats so madly explosive. Lavamancer can deal 2 damage per turn in addition to whatever else you grab from the yard. Besides, if you grab x3 Lynx... your opponent will be shitting himself when you topdeck a fetchland. Just some food for thought.

Decks with mass removal spells are typically a blowout, unless they run Counterbalance. Sligh is basically a Burn deck, and slow control decks get steamrolled. I only run 15 creatures, of which I only care about them doing damage worth their cost. Even if I can never do any damage with them, I just play the Burn role. Firespout doesn't come online until turn 3 earliest, and Wrath of God doesn't come online until turn 4 earliest. I goldfish turn 3-4. Obviously against control I won't win turn 3-4, but that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying Proc is bad, I'm simply saying that more burn is almost always better against the decks where Proc would be good.

Also, have you tested Helix in place of Magma Jet yet? I heard it discussed earlier in the thread.

This keeps getting discussed over and over, and I'm not trying to be an ass, but I'm done repeating myself. Magma Jet's primary function is library manipulation, and its contending rival is Ponder. I choose Magma Jet over Ponder because it has burn attached, which is great for this decks burn density. I have won countless games because of Magma Jet, and I will not cut it for another burn spell.

This is not to solo you out, but more of a general remark to everyone else who suggests cutting Magma Jet for some other burn spell: Play The Deck First. If Magma Jet still isn't your cup of tea, then go ahead and cut it. Do as you will, I'm not your parent(s). Magma Jet is fucking phenomenal in this deck. It's an engine card that makes this deck more consistent, more resilient, and more lethal. Not to mention it's ability to help dig for crucial sideboard cards like Spree or Disenchant against a Chalice @ 1. At any rate, I've spent enough time discussing this issue. Do as you will, but I won't be cutting it.

[Hanni]

I thought of a name for the deck! One that I'd like to use for the R/u/w splash, anyway.

Short story long, I was at my buddies house tonight drinking, and he's a gun guy. Anyway, he just bought a .45 cal single action 6 shooter. The old western style. It just popped in my head right now, but it's a perfect name...

Quickdraw.

That's the name I want for this deck. R/u/w Quickdraw, or just straight Quickdraw, I don't care.

[Vacrix]

Decks with mass removal spells are typically a blowout, unless they run Counterbalance. Sligh is basically a Burn deck, and slow control decks get steamrolled.

Agreed except in the case of Aggro Loam.. cause stuff like Devastating Dreams destroys your lands too and burn doesn't like that very much. They can do that as early as turn 2, or turn 3 if they play around your Daze. Thats not a good enough reason to run Proc though. Deed is too slow for burn.

Quickdraw sounds legit. Reminds me of Quicksilver Dagger. Burn is kind of like throwing a knife at someone. Well.. more than one and they are all on fire. Guns sound remotely like Belcher, seeing as its both a Glass Cannon, and the win condition is literally a cannon.

I kind of like WUR Quick (we're Quick). lol

[Hanni]

Agreed except in the case of Aggro Loam.. cause stuff like Devastating Dreams destroys your lands too and burn doesn't like that very much. They can do that as early as turn 2, or turn 3 if they play around your Daze. Thats not a good enough reason to run Proc though. Deed is too slow for burn.

If Aggro Loam hits me with Devastating Dreams, there's no way I'm going to be able to cast a 3cc sorcery.

Quickdraw sounds legit. Reminds me of Quicksilver Dagger. Burn is kind of like throwing a knife at someone. Well.. more than one and they are all on fire. Guns sound remotely like Belcher, seeing as its both a Glass Cannon, and the win condition is literally a cannon.

I kind of like WUR Quick (we're Quick). lol

Cannon's don't shoot fast. The old western style 6 shooters do. This deck is extremely aggressive and shoots burn pretty fast. I think Quickdraw fits this deck like a glove (not OJ's glove).