Hi everyone :)
I want to show you some new vision upon team america ( TA later in the text) deck.
To start with I want to explain, why regular TA ( and the BUG) isnt that good now
(I won't argue with TA/BUG players here, I just point the key weaknesses, that are crucial for me)
1)Goyf is easily spell snared. So is the Hymn
2)Goyf is easily blocked by another goyf, champed by manadork with mother of runes and is smaller than Knight of the Reliquary
3)Deck doesnt provide a good clock.
4)Cantrips require U, goyf – G and hymn BB. You cant afford it, because everyone plays a set of wastelands, probably with stifles, or even Price of Progress/Blood Moon. I guess that's the main reason Monored Painter topped Amsterdam GP.
5)Deck suffers from any swords or grave hate, partly because it cant kill fast enough and discards at random, not directly the threat
6)In addition to 2) and 3) TA has painful removal ( snuff out, though, is great), that's why it cannot beat zoo/merfolks/goblins consistenly
BUG has the same problems plus the following
1)key spells cost a lot ( hello, daze), so it doesnt work with wastelands properly
2)Jace costs UU, liliana BB and Goyf G, so opponent's wasteland can ruin the game
3)too many discard cards, so topdeck quality in midgame is poor
4)only 4-6 cantrips
5)even worse clock, than TA has
6)snapcaster is very mana intensive and can be blasted/spell snared
7)in addition to fast aggro ( including burn and UR Delver), has very hard matchups against RUG or dredge
Green is for goyf and deed in sideboard, which isnt fast enough, so why not just throw them away and play UB?
Recently I and my friend developed a new version of tempo, that ran X-1, X-0 in all regular events and finally some days ago won the swiss ( X-1) and 2-0 2-0 2-0'ed in the top ( killed Abolisher Ceph.Breakfast, UW Thopters CounterTop and Reanimator) to win the Russian Legacy champ.
Here is the list he played
“Russian Airlines” ( or come to Moscow GP 2012 :) )
created by Ivan Alexandrov, played by Grigory Griaznov
Special thx to Alexander Smirnov ( Ajsmirnov here on forum) for heavy playtesting it :)
*[EDITED] List is updated on 14.06.12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Torpor Orb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
3 Nausea
3 Perish
2 Reanimate
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
*List that won the event is here, all following text is for the original list, but fits for this as well of course
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...1&iddeck=56326
So, lets explain why this is better than decks above
1)No random in discarding. Spells that costs 4+ are not the big deal with all the mana denial in the world. Still, you can split inquisition with thoughtseize.
2)Direct discard + 8 cantrips are excellent ( you know what you're digging for )
3)Snuff Out is much better that dismember, because it is free and you can ignore black creatures such as Dark Confidant ( and of course spell snare it with spare mana)
4)Clock is very fast and your opponent cant champ. Any combination of early 2 creatures race anything.
5)Torpor Orb isnt only support for Dreadnought, it turns of all mystics/snapcasters/goblins/adepts/finks/clique's etc.
6)Deck has 2 colors and you can easily search for island turn 1 and play on 2 lands including wasteland. Manabase is very stable.
7)Relic of Progenitus is the only grave hate, that does something against the deck
8)Opponent's spell snares does completely nothing.
I also think, that in many ways it is even better than RUG.
Main problem is when your Goyf is countered with Spell Snare. Opponent might have STP ( or any removal) in his hand, but you're already forced to counter that snare.
Mongoose is untargetable ( it is awesome), but 3/3 isnt that much it was 2 years before.
RUG can not deal with big Knight of the Reliquary.
In other words: RUG's creatures cant work without burn spells, mana denial doesnt work without burn spells also ( kills manadorks). So you invest your counters to follow the aggro or denial plan depending on starting hand, without any information about opponent's hand or even deck. One plan basically doesn't work without another.
In UB though, story is different. You discard the threat ( or even a manadork or early drop )and the plan becomes clear. You know exactly what land to fetch, what to counter and what can possible race you. Even without it, early nought and stalker give an opportunity to invest all counters to protect it, because they win dramatically fast. You dont have to waste a turn to bolt a manadork, just pay 4, that usually doesn't matter.
You have an opportunity to change a plan fast and to win fast. Proper removal and enormous creatures ensure that your clock is good.
Than there is the question about matches against combo decks.
I cant say RUG is perfect here, because it isn't. Plan is a clock + soft counters. That works fine with combos, going off “slowly”, like ANT and High Tide, but if you tap out against reanimator and TES, you probably lose. I dont even mention dredge, which is the RUG's nightmare of all time. You cant counter all enablers dredge has and goyf is stopped by any zombie.
On the other side, Ub is deck, that provides discard and counters, which is more optional in combo matchups.
UB has better clock and free removal ( against reanimator). Dredge matchup is different too, you can afford imp resolve, because dreadnought simply races a bit of tokens ( don't forget that unstifled nought removes Bridge from Below).
And the last point – massacre is brilliant. For free you kill mystic/geist/hierarch/mother of runes/arbor/snapcaster/mindcensor/qasali pridemage and so on.
As you can see, the Pro's are impressive. What about Con's?
Well, they are obvious.
1)Nought is a 2-card combo. Cantrips solve that one
2)In metagame, which is heavily packed with Krosan Grips ( I hardly believe in that), Nought can become an easy target ( also expect ancient grudges). Dont try to play against them, just board noughts out and play control role reanimating their dead/discarded Knights or Goyfs.
3)Any tempo-based deck suffers from STPs and after sb an opponent can have 7+ of them. Counterbalance is a chalice with X = 1 ( around 30 1-costs with cantrips). You need only two turns to kill, so it very possible to make perfect topdecks even without Sensei's divining Top ( which is very mana intensive and doesnt fit here).
4)No artifact hate at all. Well, mystic is too slow and stupid against orb; batterskull cant win the race against dreadnought, also living weapon can be stifled. If you expect a lot of chalices or trinispheres you can pack bounce in sb.
There're some cards, that can be useful in the deck.
1)Darkblast. Sounds crazy, but against maverick it is a free win.
2)Phantasmal Image ( in sideboard). Copies Geist/Thrun/Knight/Stalker. Alternative plan agains Grips/Grudges.
3)Virtue's ruin. Against maverick and UW is a wrath for 3
4)Diabolic Edict. Good against sneak attack, reanimator, but I dont think you need it.
5)Leyline of the Void. Well, if you're so paranoid about dreadge/reanimator side it, but I think its an overkill.
I might forget some obvious cards so I appreciate if you tell me about them.
Common matchups.
1)Maverick ( most popular and powerful aggro right now). If it runs Punishing Fire its an easy win, otherwise approx 40-60 before sb depending on the roll ( on play you win ~100%).
2)Any combo ( ANT, TES, reanimator, high tide). Huge favorite. You lose to goldfish only.
Xantid Swarm brings some problems, but you have discard and counterbalance.
3)UW. If an opponent doesn't know about torpor orb its free win. Discard just in time you want to go off with Nought.
4)Merfolks. One of the most difficult ones. They are a bit favorite, but cant win against dreadnought turn 2. Not many merfolks in the field right now to be really worried about them
5)CounterTops. A rare one too. If they have STP + lock you probably lose ( but tombstalker is still an out), otherwise they are huge underdog. I think its pretty similar to RUG vs. Countertop matchup, but you can kill creatures with snuff out.
6)Goblins. We played it only 2 or 3 times and with torpor orb it was a demolition. Stifle and Daze are the key cards.
7)Zoo. Depends on the speed of zoo, more heavy – easier to win. Any discard + nought hand is a win.
8)Finally, RUG. Spell Snares do nothing, just discard threat or counter and win. Furthermore, you have basic lands and RUG doesnt.
All in all, I consider, that against almost every deck UB plays same or better then RUG, not including surprising factor, which makes it a proper deck to beat right now.
All suggestions will be appreciated, I will be glad if the deck becomes popular.
Thanks for reading, I.A.
Last edited by ultra_a; 06-18-2012 at 04:59 AM.
Is this thread only for the discussion of Dreadnought based lists, or is this a thread for the discussion of U/B Tempo in general?
I ask this, because I haven't seen a thread to discuss U/B Tempo anywhere else, and my build doesn't run Dreadnought.
I'll post my list up, but if you feel that this doesn't belong in your thread, I can delete it:
U/B Tempo 2012
// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures (10)
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells (30)
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [MM] Snuff Out
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [GP] Repeal
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
I originally started out with the Stifle/Wasteland gameplan, but eventually decided that I was alot more concerned about protecting my threats than I was about attacking my opponent's manabase. However, I could easily cut the 4 Inquisitions for 4 Stifle's if I decided to revert back.
Basically, the deck just wants to disrupt the opponent as much as possible early game, dropping a beater and protecting it for the win. Creature removal is alot less necessary when all of the creatures have evasion.
Enemy Force of Will, Tombstalker, Batterskull all of which costs 2 mana (or less) not that big of a deal?Originally Posted by ultra_a
Tombstalker is in so few decks he isn't an actual..real..thing. Batterskull, meet dreadnaught, force of will, well, sometimes you just have to eat one to the face.
Lately, given decks are less and less reliant on bombs, I find it nice when someone FOW's me..by all means, 2 for 1 yourself. IoK is going to hit everything you need it to hit in the timeframe that you care about. It's the most flexible targeted discard, if you hit the right targets then by the time they can even drop those bombs you shouldn't even care about it.
What's batterskull to your 12/12 trampler?
I like how this build looks and I think a few more printings could really push it over the top. I kind of agree that Tarmogoyf can be underwhelming at times, but he also functions as pseudo-removal by being a wall against aggro decks. Also, splashing green grants access to Pernicious Deed, Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, etc.
With your build you are basically always forced to be on the offense, meaning you can be in a lot of trouble if your first threat gets killed.
Dreadnought is certainly a great card to get random wins.
I've always loved casting 12/12's but, i've noticed they can sit in your hand like nails without stifle. The orb does run into spell snare, but with all the CiP creatures ran now its a good card. I've been in love with tombstalker myself. I've been running a UBr list.
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tombstalker
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
1 Badlands
3 Terminate
I like the list with Noughts. Playtested some games against it with Maverick, and it was a real beating. I hardly won 3 of 10. Running Noughts over Cliques could be worth considering, as its a better clock and cannot be randomly negated by Karakas or Scryb ranger. Also the whole deck ignores Thrun.
As a former blue player I like new goods decks appear. Maybe time to start casting Brainstorms again.
Isnt Trickbind better than Torpor Orb? You dont want to give their spell snares targets, right?
Thx for comments
About your lists.
1) Hymn isnt needed. I mean at all. BB only for stalker.
This deck wants to install a beater or ruin manabase instead of discarding random cards.
Main reason is BB cost and spell snare vulnarability though + crappy topdeck in midgame
2) Clique is 3/1 for 3 with effect, which doesnt do anything: you cant cycle removal anyway. 3 mana is way too much for the deck
3) Removal should be free, it is the key, or would you waste a turn to kill hierarch with terminate?
Some words about red color
1) You dont need bolt with 12/12 trample and all others with flying.
2) Terminate requires BR and your ponder in the opening hand requires U. What will you choose? Also it costs 2 mana. Snuff Out does exactly the same for 0
3) Grim Lavamancer. It should be reason #1 to play red maindeck. Well, it requires at least basic mountain and doesnt work with tombstalker. With dreadnought mancer is useless, better protect the big guy.
4) Pyroblast. Reason #1 to splash red in general. Better discard a threat/cantrip, than leave one of two lands open for pyroblast. And again, its ruining the manabase.
About torpor orb - sure, it can be snared, but(!) it provides powerful effect. Every nought you find in the deck will be 12/12 for 1. Every snapcaster/mystic*etc your opponent plays will be 2/1 for 2. With trickbind you need 3 mana to install nought, in some cases you dont have 3. And it needs 3 mana to be cast with brainstorm.
There are too many copies of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Qasali Pridemage, Green Sun's Zenith, Krosan Grip, Jace, etc. where I play, so I really don't want to rely on Phyrexian Dreadnought. If you were to build a deck without Dreadnought, how would you construct it? (Or would you consider it a different deck entirely?)
Wow, I don't know what to say. Apparently you haven't played a lot against or with Clique.Clique is 3/1 for 3 with effect, which doesnt do anything
If I had to point out any single creature that has won me the most games ever, it would easily be this one (contested only by Goyf's performance in the past, but that era is over).
I'm not implying that it's an auto-include, but I would at least seriously consider it, even if it turns out to not fit into the deck.
"Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a fatty that Jamie Wakefield seems to have overlooked. It has a tremendous power and toughness of 3000/2500, making it bigger than current threats such as Tarmogoyf or Mountain."
But the effect doesn't do anything with Torpor Orb in play ;)
I think what he meant is that the clique wouldn't play nice with Torpor Orb. Vendilion Clique enter the battlefield effects would be negated and it is "just" basically a 3cmc 3/1 flying. Still good, but....
Torpor Orb certainly is a reason to not run it, though you still could. You could also replace Orb with Trickbind, Stifle 5-6 can be pretty devastating for some people's manabases and also has more synergy with Delver. Plus there are some other things you'd rather Stifle, where Orb is just useless (Deed, KotR, Pridemage, Mother...)
4 Delver
3 Stalker
4 Nought
2 Clique
seems like it could certainly kill people out of nowhere with a nought or surprise with death from the skies.
"Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a fatty that Jamie Wakefield seems to have overlooked. It has a tremendous power and toughness of 3000/2500, making it bigger than current threats such as Tarmogoyf or Mountain."
I don't think it is the direction the OP is going for. Looking at his list, he has taken pains to make sure his mana curve is very low. Almost everything is 1cmc, with the exception of Torpor Orb and Tombstalker at "2"cmc. Futhermore, he stressed the use of Snuff Out instead of other usable but more expenisve 1-2 cmc removal.
I supposed he wanted to have mana available at all times, esp the first couple of turns to run disruption or counter or to dig for them. Personally, I like Torpor Orb more than Trickblind. It is a permanent so that you can be ready to cast Nought whenever you draw it. It is more secure and ready. It frees up the Stifles to be used on the opponent. Trickbind cost a bit more to cast and primarily just an more expenisve stifle. Torpor Orb has a double function as a Nought-enabler and to disrupt the opponent's creatures(SFM) with enter the battlefield abilities.
So, it doesn't make sense to include other enter the battlefield creatures yourself. Clique is flash so it still could fit when cast at eot but usually you want to cast clique at the opponent's draw phrase for maximum effect.
I think that the main reason to splash Red with a Delver/Clique/Stalker list is for the potential sideboard Firespout.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I like the deck in OP a lot. It looks awesome.
I suggest maindeck Spell Pierce instead of Spell Snare since, as you say, countering Goyf or ground creatures in general isn't that relevant, and Pierce can protect your own threats better than Snare.
I would never doubt that Clique is a great creature on its own. But not in this deck
On the draw snare can stop your opponents library/confidant/hymn, without orb in play it stops snapcasters from reusing StPs. Our testing shows that snare is somehow better, may be just a feeling :)
and about Firespout. Against RUG and Elves you have Perish - dont try to kill them - kill them!
Against merfolk firespout will face cursecatcher/daze, so with only 18 lands in the deck you can not pay. Against UW, Maverick etc Massacre is WAY better. And again - it is free(!) and protection doesnt help against -/-
As Wert said, we made some sacrifices in pursuit of functionality, because you can do huge amount of things with tiny amount of mana. Mana is the main source of advantage, and free removal spells allow to use it all. Also, curve is very low and almost every starter is good.
Spell Pierce can stop Library or Hymn just as well on the draw, and it can counter StPs - both with and without snapcasters involved.
As you can probably tell, I am a great Spell Pierce fan :)
My feedback ultra_a:
I encourage you to update your primer and to focus more on the idea why you think your deck is a good choice, instead of making unqualified, simplified and also simply wrong statements about specific cards from RUG, BUG & TA. As you said we surely do not want a discussion about these decks (especially from your intial post, there is no point of a discussion), so why bother putting this arguments there in the first place? I think if you want to draw more attention to your deck idea it is a good idea to make a more "professional" statement.
Concerning the deck:
I like torpor orp and was also thinking about a shell to abuse it.
Playing it do you think hunted horror might make sense?
Not going for a third color has advantages, however Red feels very good. Going to the dome is good for such an aggressive deck. Having a stronger gamplan without relying on dreadnought to survive seems very important!
Speaking of it, for this gamplan I would like to play some more aggressive creatures.
I'll definitely give it a thought and will run some tests with this idea...
One more point:
you missed the biggest disadvantage of dreadnought: you 2 for 1 yourself.
I thought after MM banning, the Dreadnought will be the replacement for NO RUG, beeing a potentially faster 2 for 1 big creature combo. However the missing protection seems to be a very deciding factor.
Currently playing: Elves
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