Dark Thresh

[Qweerios]

Greetings,

Dark Thresh is a Black based deck with a green splash. It uses an Aggro-Tempo strategy with a mid-late game control shift. It relies heavily on discard as its main source of disruption. It is similar to Eva Green in the sense that it uses fast disruption followed by threats to overwhelm the opponent. It is different because it capitalizes on huge amounts of discard by using cards such as: Nyxathid, Tarmogoyf, and even The Rack to establish a chokehold on your opponent rather than relying entirely on tempo and disruption. What makes a discard-based deck more reliable now than before is Liliana of the Veil. She is very synergistic with the creatures in the deck and will allow you to focus either on your opponent's hand size or board position.

The list (most straightforward and up to date):

Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze

Instant/Sorcery (20)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage

Other (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
4 Dark Ritual
3 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize


Threats:
Nimble Mongoose - Plays very well alongside removal spells and complements Liliana;
Tarmogoyf - Grows fast with discard spells;
Skittering Skirge - Flipped Delver;
Nyxathid - Acts as Goyf #5-8, both fulfill the role of undercosted beaters that capitalize on discard;
Phyrexian Obliterator - Dominates the combat zone at the cost of time and a tricky mana cost;
Sewer Nemesis - A card certainly worth exploring, has great synergy with the rest of the deck;
Dark Confidant - Will quickly overwhelm your opponent when unanswered.

Discard package:
Thoughtseize - Any combination of 1 CMC discard in quantities of 4-6;
Inquisition of Kozilek - Similar to Thoughtseize, meta dependant;
Duress - Same as above;
Hymn to Tourach - Generates card advantage and disrupts greatly;
Liliana of the Veil - Essence of the deck: redundant discard and removal.

Removal Package:
Ghastly Demise - Cheap and synergistic removal, has its limitations but very suitable.
Dismember - Cheap and effective. Flexible cost;
Snuff Out - Free removal with a higher drawback. Can incur important life loss and cannot destroy black creatures (mostly Dark Confidant);
Smother, Go for the Throat, Victim of Night - Safer removal at a higher cost.
Maelstrom Pulse - Most versatile piece of removal availlable.

Others:
The Rack - Continuous damage source, harder to remove than creatures;
Cursed Scroll - Similar to The Rack. It can target Creatures and Planeswalkers at the expense of a continuous mana investment;
Sensei's Divining Top - Filters topdecks, mitigates bob flips, and one of the only good library manipulation cards availlable.

Cards that don't belong in the deck:
Funeral Charm - Although versatile, it is sub-par as both removal and discard;
Dark Ritual - Powering out early spells via ritual often leaves us with less cards than our opponent;
Phyrexian Negator - Even against Bolt-free decks, he usually cannot attack through a 2+/x creature;
Hypnotic Specter - Loses his appeal without Dark Ritual. Mostly overlaps with Liliana.

Best matchups:
-Aggro (Zoo, DnT)
-Tribal (Merfolks, Goblins, Elves)
-Midrange Aggro (Maverick, Rock)
-Combo (Storm, High Tide, Painter)
-Dredge (Post-board)

Worst matchups:
-Burn
-MUD
-Stax
-Loam

[Kich867]

It's an interesting decklist. In fact, the general gravitation towards 2 color, rock-solid mana base decks that have been popping up are interesting to me. They perform much better than people probably would have thought.

First maverick, then UR Delver, then this new UB Tempo, this list also looks quite impressive. As an avid fan of Nyxathid I'm for any list that can run him effectively.

I think he's a better choice over Tombstalker.

Thoughtseize worries me.

With no way to tutor the top to mitigate Bob damage you're going to be running into:

At 3: Nyxathid, Dismember, Liliana, and Pulse (16 cards, 1/4 of the deck)
At 2: Goyf, Confidant, Hymn (12 cards, the other 1/4 of the deck)

and 10 fetches?

I don't see cursed scroll or the rack being particularly stellar in this deck, especially only running one of both. I'd actually rather see those go and amplifying the number of top's up to 3. Top is too amazing with Bob and filtering your draws is something the deck doesn't have outside of that.

[Qweerios]

Thoughtseize worries me as well. I often switch back and forth between IoK and TS. I find IoK to be better against the more difficult matchups, while TS hits Jace and Batterskull against Stoneblade. IoK is probably a better choice at the moment.

I used to play 8 fetches and increased it to 10. More shufflers for Top, faster Threshold for mongoose, and less Swamps on the draw when I need to open with a Mongoose or a Goyf.

The Rack/Scroll/Top are flexible slots I am currently tweaking. I also feel like Top is the strongest option here, having 2-3 is definitely good. I will probably take out the 22nd land in favor of the 3rd top.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I concur: I don't think you can safely run Confidant, given the amount of built-in life loss already. On the bright side, that frees up four slots for Tombstalker, Scavenging Ooze, or anything else you might fancy.

[Kich867]

I concur: I don't think you can safely run Confidant, given the amount of built-in life loss already. On the bright side, that frees up four slots for Tombstalker, Scavenging Ooze, or anything else you might fancy.

They have negative interactions with each-other, which is an interesting concept really. Goyf, tombstalker, and ooze all utilize the graveyard in different ways and being able to run all 3 of them effectively in one deck would be a bit much I think.

Tombstalker kills your yard, ooze kind of kills thier yard, at least Ooze and Goyf could be run and it wouldn't be too bad, no matter what you do though you're not getting the most out of any of them by including all of them.

I think Bob is fine, but maybe some number of say.. Terravore? He can be pretty badass, I'm actually surprised he's not run more often--no one should bring in a GY hate package at the sight of him..

[Qweerios]

I tried Terravore out when I was tinkering with Scythe Tiger and really didn't dig the 1GG casting cost. I could also see Relics being sided in against us knowing that it would hose every threat in the deck.

Bob is essential for Dark Thresh. When you strip someone's hand at the cost of your own, whoever builds it back the fastest usually wins, and Bob does that. He is also the most prone creature to eat removal, and that's because hes the most dangerous one as well.

[bruizar]

You a forgetting ghastly demise. Dodges spell snare, easier through daze, can hit every creature.. Imo the best removal spell alongside dismember. It also costs way less in life which is key if youre planning to milk confidsnt

[Qweerios]

Wow you are right, Ghastly Demise is good!

I just played a couple of games against Tempo Thresh and The Rock having replaced Dismember with Demise and it was very powerful. I have a lot of success against Maverick and Rock, and they can't seem to win a single game postboard. 4 Deathmark, 4 Demise, 4 Pulse, and 4 Lily is too much for them to handle. The same thing happens against Dredge and Reanimator postboard when I side out Hymns and Demise for 4 Extractions, and 4 Extirpates. Perhaps I should update the matchups accordingly. Combo deck such as High Tide and Doomsday also suffer a terrible fate when I board out removal in favor of the 8 extractors.

[Mr. Safety]

Solid looking list, I really like it. I see it more of an evolution of Eva-Green than anything else (much like you mentioned in the OP.) I see the difference with the heavy emphasis on discard, but it looks like it would play out with the same feel.

Just throwing these cards out there, not sure if you've considered them yet (for either maindeck or sideboard):
Darkblast
Life from the Loam
Raven's Crime
Smallpox
Vampire Nighthawk
Putrid Leech
Scavenging Ooze
Diabolic Edict
Gatekeeper of Malakir


I realize there is quite a bit of functional overlap with those suggestions and your list (most notably Liliana serving the same purpose as Edict effects and Smallpox.) I think Life from the Loam could be a potent tool against greedy manabases such as Tempo Thresh and BUG/Team America. Nighthawk is an all-star in Deadguy Ale and I think he could be good for the sideboard here as well...without the equipment he isn't fantastic, but he's still just a damn solid play.

[Qweerios]

Darkblast is a solid suggestion, probably worth some MB or SB space. Excellent in combination with Liliana as you are likely to always have access to this pinpoint removal. The Dredge effect is also valuable in combination with Mongoose and Demise. I will definitely test it out, thanks!

As you mentioned yourself, there is indeed a great deal of overlap with Gatekeeper, Smallpox, Edicts, and Raven's Crime with Liliana. The main difference is that Liliana allows you to do any of these effects at any given time and often without having to spend a card to achieve the desired effect.

For the creatures, I like to have them all out of bolt range and able to put my opponent on a significant clock in order to minimize the chances of them recovering from a topdeck situation. Nighthawk has some nice abilities but doesn't quite do the job when it comes to what I use creatures for: killing my opponent. Ooze is simply better than Leech in nearly every way. I can't imagine using him effectively simply because green mana is difficult to come by in multiples as I am almost always fetching for basic lands.

I am afraid LftL is too slow for this deck.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

They have negative interactions with each-other, which is an interesting concept really. Goyf, tombstalker, and ooze all utilize the graveyard in different ways and being able to run all 3 of them effectively in one deck would be a bit much I think.

Tombstalker kills your yard, ooze kind of kills thier yard, at least Ooze and Goyf could be run and it wouldn't be too bad, no matter what you do though you're not getting the most out of any of them by including all of them.

The suggestion wasn't to run all three together.

[Mr. Safety]

All I meant to do was open up discussion on how to approach different matchups. Scavenging Ooze seems good against a lot of decks while also boosting your threat density.

Loam was for a Waste-lock while beating with cheap threats. It has the same synergy as Darkblast as far as dredging goes, it just utilizes Wasteland to kill lands rather than creatures. I would consider it sideboard tech only.

The reason I posted was mostly for Darkblast...it has a lot of relivance in the current environment considering it kills Bob, Snapcaster, unflipped Delvers, Nobles, Vendilion Clique, and Grims. You can also double up on it by playing it during your upkeep, dredging it back, and then using it again to take care of anything with 2 toughness. Not sure if you see a lot of Elves decks, but it's absolutely BRUTAL against those.

How do you feel about Sylvan Library compared to SDT? SDT has a cheaper initial cost, but Sylvan Library can create some incremental card advantage alongside the quality advantage. SDT will only give you the latter.

[Qweerios]

I have tested Darkblast against Goblins, Elves, and UB Tempo and they are amazing. I fiddled with sideboard and mainboard Darkblasts and I don't think any more than 1 copy belongs in the mainboard. I will definitely pack 2-3 in my sideboard though. Also, I noticed that in a lot of matchups, Darkblast often replaces Deathmark. I only really get value out of Deathmark when it can destroy the majority of my opponent's creatures (pretty much Maverick and Rock). I will probably end up replacing them with some less specified removal so that I can combat a wider aray of creatures (everything non-white/green).

I prefer Top over Library because it has better synergy with Bob and fetchlands, it is nearly indestructible, and allows me instant draws. The latter is especially relevant with Liliana on the board and removal on top of library or with a Darkblast in the GY. I am still unclear as to whether Top goes to the GY if I dredge off of the tap:draw ability. I assume the top 3 cards are put into my GY, Darkblast goes to my hand, and Top goes on top of my library. Nonetheless, I really want to increase the # of Tops to 3, I am contemplating removing a Pulse or a fetch.

[Qweerios]

Skittering Skirge and Phyrexian Obliterator are actually pretty good so far, they are much more threatening than Nyxathid.

[Freggle]

Qweerios as fate would have it we are tinkering with similar decks again.

The main difference is you are BG whereas I am BR (started as BW).

Here is my current list that has been testing well for the past few days (since inception):

4 Faithless Looting
4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Blightning
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Chain Lightning

SB - Undeveloped.
Likely to include
Pyroblasts
Pyroclasam
Extirpate/Surgical Extraction
Despise?

Some notable interactions:

Bloodghast & Faithless Looting
Bloodghast & Cabal Therapy
Faithless Looting & Tombstalker

It's fairly wicked & resilient. Still lots o' room to tune, but the same concept.

Phyrexian Arena got the job over my Bob's partly because I chose to try Stalker, but mainly because he never seems to live in the current meta with people running so much spot removal for all the quick threats. Nyxathid is on my list of things to test yet. Has he been a beast?

[Qweerios]

Nice to see you again Freggles!

Nyxathid is great when everything falls in line, however, he isn't worth much when you are at a disadvantage unlike Obliterator.

For your B/R list, I tinkered with the idea a while back when I made the Red Gate thread. It would probably be more apropriate to post in that thread instead, I would prefer to keep this centered on Liliana interactions.

For now, here's what I can tell you on your list:

1. Blightning is a terrible card for the following reasons:

a) discard at 3cmc loses a lot of value
b) like Funeral Charm, Blightning does a lot of things, but they are all underwhelming for the cost of Blightning
c) 3CMC slots in your deck should have more effect (Arena, Moons, KotR-sized threat, etc.).
d) often an overcosted Lava Spike in a discard themed deck.

Blightning would be a good card if the abilities were better, say if you could divide the 3 points of damage. The only place where Blightning was ever good was in the Standard format with Bloodbraid Elves.

2. Faithless Looting for... Bloodghast?

Looting is built in card disadvantage, you need to do something really broken with it to be good (Dredge, Reanimator, Welder). Bloodghast is a very underwhelming card to begin with, in order to break him you would need some heavy synergy (Contamination, Birthing Pod). Therapy is a good reason, but not a good enough one by itself. As far as Looting fueling Tombstalker goes, after you've cast all of your discard spells and reached that point in the game where it is safe to drop your bomb, you probably already have enough lands in play and cards in your graveyard to cast him regardless of if you have used Looting prior.

3. Why red?

Seems like you don't put up a significant clock to justify doubling your removal as burn. I don't see how you capitalize on discard aside from the 3 scarce Tombstalkers. Discard is short term disruption and red only offers early-game removal. I fail to see how choosing red is any better than choosing white or green.

I don't mind working on a B/R deck with you but I would prefer it to be elsewhere. I will propose a B/R list in the Red Gate thread using Bloodghast/Therapy interactions for you.

[Qweerios]

The spoilers of RtR have made me go back to this little deck. Grisly Salvage and Abrupt Decay solve many issues that I had while playing this deck.

[Barook]

The spoilers of RtR have made me go back to this little deck. Grisly Salvage and Abrupt Decay solve many issues that I had while playing this deck.

Have you tried out a few copies of Deathrite Shaman? Could be interesting as it serves multiple purposes, even while running Ooze.

[Vacrix]

Have you tried out a few copies of Deathrite Shaman? Could be interesting as it serves multiple purposes, even while running Ooze.

Shaman could definitely find a few slots. Its great against any graveyard based strategy. If you have problem with Loam.dec, this would be a fantastic 1 drop must-answer. Also, the life gain it provides would be decent against Burn. Gaining 2 life per turn hurts when so many of their creature hit the yard. Wasting a Burn spell on it is necessary.

With 10 fetches and 4 Wasteland, you have a pretty good chance of having lands hit the yard so that it functions as a manadork. Otherwise, the anti-yard tech seems good for having a pre-board answer to a single Dredger as well as forcing Reanimator to have multiple creature hit the yard in the same turn.

Shaman would also save you some board space perhaps so you wouldn't need to board in as much graveyard hate. Then you could shore up the MUD/Stax matchups with your board space, since those matchups are your worst.


Liliana is a bomb for sure but 4 seems like too many copies.


Also, have you considered a blue splash for Snapcaster. Not to say you should play the full 4 Fow, 4 Brainstorm, etc. but Snapcaster is honestly worth the splash when you are playing cheap spells like Ghastly Demise. Also, Abrupt Decay off Snapcaster dodges Spell Pierce. I'd cut the Grisly Salvage for Snapcasters and alter the mana base to support a blue splash.

[metronome2charisma]

I don't think that running shaman in a deck thats called "dark thresh" is going to work..threshold is needed The fact that no one plays ramp in thresh decks says it probly wont work. these decks operate on lower land counts because they can..because of thresh and delve.if you want grave hate run ooze over goyf