Healthy Format despite 2 new blue bombs...?

[catmint]

Innistrad brought Snapcaster Mage & Delver, which improved already strong blue control and tempo strategies significantly. However to me the format seems balanced.

No whining about brainstorm for a while and TCdecks / SCG show the wide variety that everyone loves about legacy.

My take on things:

Yes there are the most popular and probably "best" decks overall with:
"best" control deck in UW Stoneblade
"best" tempo deck in RUG and
Maverick as the best "beat blue".

However, they are beatable and to me only dominant in their popularity...not dominant in a way that other decks are not viable.

It feels like you can focus more on which deck you play really well to be successful and can also give your favourite deck a shot for winning despite not beeing Tier 1.

Some decks like Merfolk where pushed out, but I think it is a part of the game that there are some victims to the release of new staples.

To me that was a bit surprising and somehow ironic considering that the topic of blue dominance was everywhere and pushed even more after devler and snapcaster were spoiled.

Thoughts?

[xfxf]

I believed this to be the case even before the ban of MM. I think playing blue and non-linear control oriented strategies is accepted as a "safe bet" or "the pro way" by many and that's why they get overly played. This overplaying and thus placements in the Top8s are mistaken by "opression of other strategies" or "dominating the format".

After the MM ban if you look at the monthly statistics you can see that RUG was huge initially. Then started going down a bit while Blade kind of decks started to rise in great numbers. Towards december a lot of people were calling for a Brainstorm ban because the format was overpopulated by RUG and Blade decks. Thankfully the ban didn't happen and the metagame naturally adapted by playing "beats on blue" decks. I think from that point on the meta started to settle down to a healthy balance.

I'm sure that this will cause a lot of flaming but I also believe that if MM was given another 3 months or at least the GP Amsterdam, metagame would have experienced a similar breaking point and coming of maturity by December bannings. Even if it's true or not this much is obvious that given enough time metagame can find its balance and overpopularity is easily mistaken with dominance. I seriously hope that these past two months can hush the blue haters a little in the future.

[wcm8]

I would consider Delver more of a 'red' creature despite its literal color, much like how Tarmogoyf is really more of a 'blue' creature. Delver's typically best when paired with burn spells for the reach.

Anyways.. Health by what standard? Variety of decks that top-8? Length/turning-point of a typical game? Number of cards on the banned list? How heaviliy variance affects match outcomes versus skill? How good combo decks are? The ratio of blue:non-blue decks being played? Depending on which axis you decide to judge the format on, you could make a decent argument saying that Legacy is either very healthy or very sick.

Is Burn's current presence as 'the great equalizer' really a good thing? Generally, RDW-style decks doing well is a sign that a format has not yet really settled down and control decks have not yet adapted to the existing metagame. You generally see RDW decks do well at the beginning of a new Standard rotation for this reason. The 'problem' with Legacy (while also being a huge selling-point) is that the card-pool and number of linear strategies is so big that the metagame might never truly settle. And then when it does, new printings/banning can shake up the format again.

[TsumiBand]

PoP is no worse than Wasteland or Wrath variants. The argument I keep hearing for play dual lands is, you have to have a good argument *not* to. So wait, the minute one comes along suddenly it's fucking broken? I find it difficult to swallow. I've played the card and know how brutal it can be; I also know that it's not degenerate and can be played around under most circumstances (sorry 45land). Sorry if Zoo or Maverick feels a little less secure in puking a tri-color hand onto the table in the first two turns; I forgot that we all need to be able to play all our cards under all circumstances without any thoughtfulness.

There's so many answers that exist in this format; a spell has to be exceptionally transcendent to warrant a banhammer, Mental Misstep was well-deserved for being a counterspell that ruined mana-curves and could feasibly go in every deck and was its own best answer. Price of Progress is no worse than Tarmogoyf, and that guy's sun is setting in a big way.

By the way, in the other thread about Burn, this deck is still horrible and not playing enough high-population tournaments to matter a damn. Whether that's a well-reasoned rebuttal to Burn's current popularity I don't know. Anyway, start playing fucking Chalices and ruin their tempo right back. I don't know how PoP suddenly became this must-deal card when it's been a fringe sideboard card for a long time that only mono-Red even dreams of running. If all these multicolored decks can't pull together enough resources to beat a 2 mana red spell, maybe the problem isn't the arrow but the hunter. It's the Blue argument all over again; ban things that get played that I hate.

[Zilla]

Agree with Tsumi. Normally I find myself in strong agreement with wcm8's posts, but I have to disagree in this case. PoP (and the decks that play it) are just ridiculously answerable in this format.

PoP punishes greedy deck construction and loose play. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a U/R Delver player, I find myself siding out PoP in games 2 and 3 frequently, because most good players with well constructed decks can play around it pretty effectively, or if not, then have some other way to answer what is an exceedingly linear strategy.

Burn variants are exploiting a weakness in the metagame right now-- one created by an overabundance of blue tempo and control decks. If Burn variants continue to rise in popularity, there are plenty of other strategies available to come in and exploit the weakness in the metagame created by their popularity.

It's all part of the natural ebb and flow of the metagame, which, to me, signifies an incredibly healthy, non-stagnant format.

[routlaw]

I kind of like Price of Progress' position in the current metagame. Two color decks can duck having many non-basics in play very easily, and PoP for 2 or 4 is not all that scary. Three color, 18-19 land Greedy McGreederson mana bases should have some hazard involved with them.

My only gripe with the format is that blue-based control decks are stretched out too thin and can't really deal with both strong linear decks (that are best fought with cheap, very specific cards) and fair midrange strategies (that are best fought with general attrition cards and planeswalkers). I chalk it up to being cyclical and that as the blue decks go more and more tempo to adapt, things will get better for control as the rest of the metagame chases that deck.

Also I think part of it is that established Legacy players hate losing to burn cards almost as much as they hate losing to Dredge. I know losing to Burn makes me want to die inside.

[wcm8]

I want to reiterate that the card isn't *that* broken or really deserving of a ban, but right now it is perhaps the most effective form of non-basic hate in the format.

Wasteland answers non-basics on a 1-to-1 basis, in addition to costing a land drop. Other non-basic hate like Choke, Blood Moon, and Back to Basics all cost three and are technically answerable after they drop (also, R&D has explicitly stated that they would not print hate for such broad strategies this strong again, for the 'unfun' factor they present). Playing Chalice puts a lot of constraints on the rest of your deck, so I don't see why you would offer that as a decent catch-all.

All I was trying to do was draw a parallel between Misstep and PoP, which might fall flat. More than likely, the format will adapt to the threat of fast linears, but it might not be in time for GP Indy.

I was also putting forth the argument (which may be wrong) that when RDW-style decks are doing well, it is a sign that the format is in flux/un-balanced/still developing. Then the question becomes, is this sort of flux a sign of a really 'Healthy' format, or is it an indicator that the format may still be too volatile to make a proper assessment.

[(nameless one)]

With all this fear of Burn, why not play Counter-Top Thopters?

[from Cairo]

I like the format at the moment. I'd agree with the "big 3" analysis - in terms of them being powerful, established and popular. I don't think the power level of any of their core cards are really out of hand. I also think there's a bunch of different decks / strategies that can be tailored to fight them.

I think it's interesting that RDWs is putting up numbers, but not really troubling. People can adapt to beating it. Price of Progress I don't think hampers deck development that much. The 2c decks can work around it via basics. 3c builds can respect that they're soft to RDWs and dedicate slots in their 75 to addressing this w/ access to 3 colors there's definitely game to be had against mono-Red.

I think having less-interactive fast decks like combo, Dredge and Burn at least keep the formats' fundamental turn in check. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but to me the pace of Legacy games is enjoyable - you generally have ~3 turns to decide the opening of the game.

[lavafrogg]

I think the format is being pulled into two opposite groups right now, the decks that want to stay in turns 1-4 and the decks that want to jump to turns 4+. With burn, U/R, RUG, storm and dredge pushing the critical turn lower and lower there are the same number of decks that want to push the curve higher and higher.

What mental misstep did was allow the faster decks in the format to counter the early game interaction of the big spell decks...therefor not allowing them to interact favorably with the faster decks, bye bye swords, innocent bloods, acceleration...

I believe that soon their will be a balance of playable planes walkers across all colors and decks will be broken down into what planes walkers that they play. The power level of the walkers is just so much higher than other card types. Legacy will finally settle like vintage is settled, most decks will play the same 30-45 cards with other archetypes taking aim at the deck to beat.

If you squint your eyes tight enough you can see that is already happening with Stoneblade being the strongest, most consistent deck in the format. Access to cheap disruption, cheap win conditions and powerful late game bombs mean that it can go toe to toe with any deck in the format. RUG is the "counter stoneblade" and does very well against the top dawg and still holds its ground against random archetypes through sheer power level.

The rest of the decks in the format are just trying to prey on the weaknesses of the top decks, just trying to steal a win until the top decks add the 1-2 cards that it takes to shut down the other archetypes.

[catmint]

That sounds like a very pessimistic future you foresee lavafrog.
I think you are wrong and you are overestimating stoneblade. Also if you look at TCdecks weighted strength of decks (DTB) you will find Maverick is a long time champion!

concerning the POP discussion.
I think the card is ok, since it does nothing against someone who chooses to play with basics (->has a disadvantage) and punishes people who take an advantage by playing more powerful lands. I also don't mind burn. RDW looks like a part of magic and should have a space in the meta just like dredge, storm, show&tell, midrange, tempo, prison,... whatever... that is what is defining a healthy format for me.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Now, it is definitely premature to go all chicken-little and call for a banning, but I think Price of Progress should be a card on the B&R watch list. The parallel I would draw is to Mental Misstep: it oppressively attacks a fundamental aspect of the format (non-basic lands, multi-colored decks), and is tailor made for a specific subset of decks that can utilize it (RDW-style decks, including U/R Delver). Adapting to the card (i.e. playing non-basic lands, or overloading on narrow SB slots) leads to weaker decks, which will have a hard enough time worrying about other strategies without having to construct their decks with the format's 'boogeyman' in mind (think about the effect Dredge has on Vintage). Like Mental Misstep, banning the card would not suddenly make the archetype unplayable, just less oppressive. You also can't argue that the card isn't ridiculously efficient at what it does: at two mana, even only hitting for 4 damage makes it right around the normal efficiency curve; hitting for 6 or more as the coup-de-grace makes it feel incredibly random and frustrating to play against.

LOL, Legacy has now replaced Commander as the scrub format of choice. You heard it here first people, Price of Progress, too good.

[TsumiBand]

LOL, Legacy has now replaced Commander as the scrub format of choice. You heard it here first people, Price of Progress, too good.

Honestly, the only scrub formats are the ones no one's trying to break. Commander is broken as fuck sometimes.

Complaining about good cards is just perennially a Magic: The Gathering firstworldproblem. It's just weird to see it be a red card for once :p

[GGoober]

You think PoP is scary, wait till people start playing Devastating Dreams in Loam again for shits and giggles. PoP is as scary as the people who are unprepared for it and do not play around it or board against it. I would say a resolved Devastating Dreams is much more scary than a resolved PoP in general.

In summary, PoP is not something new that we can't deal with. It is incredibly powerful and is red's bomb card, just as Jace is blue's bomb card etc. I think it's a fair card given that red is generally the weaker color in the format.

[Koby]

You think PoP is scary, wait till people start playing Devastating Dreams in Loam again for shits and giggles. PoP is as scary as the people who are unprepared for it and do not play around it or board against it. I would say a resolved Devastating Dreams is much more scary than a resolved PoP in general.

In summary, PoP is not something new that we can't deal with. It is incredibly powerful and is red's bomb card, just as Jace is blue's bomb card etc. I think it's a fair card given that red is generally the weaker color in the format.

QFT

Ever hear a whole room of aggro decks cry and shudder simultaneously? That's Devastating Dreams for 3.

[Vacrix]

In summary, PoP is not something new that we can't deal with. It is incredibly powerful and is red's bomb card, just as Jace is blue's bomb card etc. I think it's a fair card given that red is generally the weaker color in the format.

Its the only thing you really want to counter in Burn with your Spell Snares.

[Einherjer]

I dont like PoP due to personal reasons -I only play decks without basics - but thats okay as its a natural card that punishes me for playing this way - on the other hand I beat certain decks by simply being able to play every card out of 3 or 4 colors without problems. Even though I personally would be happy if PoP would be banned it is not justified in any objective way..so start playing more Spell Snares??
Greetings

[xfxf]

You mean like 8 snares in the BUG instead of 4?

[frogczar]

Or people could stop playing such greedy mana bases and put in some basic lands...

Price of Progress needs to exist to help punish these sorts of decks. It's good for the format.

[xfxf]

I wasn't implying it was overpowered or anything. I was just fooling actually, my own comment amused me. The last thing I would do is call for a ban, I get really annoyed when people do that.