[EDH] Oona, Queen of the Fae

[Offler]

I prefer scroll rack over SDT.

Combo situation: Mind over Matter + Stroke of Genius.
20cards on hand, but no Blue Suns Zenith? I have scroll rack. Discard a card, drop it, change your hand and look again.

For any combo deck, or deck which has to collect specific cards on hand its excellent. Dont forget to mention you can hide your entire hand on top of your library in case of discard.

In normal situation you just need to keep at least 4 cards on hand.

[Aggro_zombies]

I prefer scroll rack over SDT.

Combo situation: Mind over Matter + Stroke of Genius.
20cards on hand, but no Blue Suns Zenith? I have scroll rack. Discard a card, drop it, change your hand and look again.

I feel like this is a win-more justification for it, though. I've been in plenty of situations wherein I have 6-7 cards in hand, activate Rack for 2-3 looking for gas, draw blanks, and get to sit there with the sinking feeling of, "I'm drawing nothing for my next 2-3 turns". Top isn't much better in this regard, but it has fewer conditions on its use prior to comboing off.

Protecting your hand from discard is a YMMV sort of thing. I've hidden my hand only to draw into something I was looking for in response to a Thoughtseize, and neither Top nor Rack are particularly good against Mind Twists.

[Davran]

I feel like this is a win-more justification for it, though. I've been in plenty of situations wherein I have 6-7 cards in hand, activate Rack for 2-3 looking for gas, draw blanks, and get to sit there with the sinking feeling of, "I'm drawing nothing for my next 2-3 turns". Top isn't much better in this regard, but it has fewer conditions on its use prior to comboing off.

I've been in the same situation with both Top and Scroll Rack more times than I care to count. I've been testing out Soothsaying in a deck recently, and so far it's been pretty good. It's expensive for a shuffle effect, but sometimes you really want to get rid of the chaff and you can't find a fetch.

[LegacyStudent]

The reason I'm running Necromancy is so I could instant-speed take one of my opponents' Griselbrands in response to their own attempt to reanimate it. I can't do that with Goryo's Vengeance. My buddy sent me that card the other day, so I've been thinking about it.

Right, I meant replace either Exhume, Animate Dead, or Dance of the Dead with Vengeance. Unless for some reason you intend to pass the turn after reanimating Grisel, you get an extra draw 7 via haste and you also have another option for instant-speed reanimation if you need it for some reason.

I haven't been liking it, although Scroll Rack is absolutely insane after Ad Nauseam or Griselbrand. It's very difficult to use properly, and with all the tutors it's a little redundant. It's on the chopping block for sure.

You can always try Mystical Teachings. Right now I'm testing Insidious Dreams stacks (beginning with Windfall if I can combo, or just Timetwister if I need a reset) but so far it has been underwhelming.

[Kuma]

Right, I meant replace either Exhume, Animate Dead, or Dance of the Dead with Vengeance. Unless for some reason you intend to pass the turn after reanimating Grisel, you get an extra draw 7 via haste and you also have another option for instant-speed reanimation if you need it for some reason.

I usually pass the turn after reanimating Griselbrand and draw my cards on my next opponent's upkeep so I don't have to discard down to seven. If I fear Wipe Away, I'll draw seven on my turn without passing priority so I can at least get something out of my Griselbrand and to put him back in my graveyard for future reanimation. Unless it's late in the game, it's hard to both reanimate Griselbrand and win on the same turn no matter how many cards I draw.

You can always try Mystical Teachings. Right now I'm testing Insidious Dreams stacks (beginning with Windfall if I can combo, or just Timetwister if I need a reset) but so far it has been underwhelming.

Interesting ideas. I'll have to give them a shot.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I usually pass the turn after reanimating Griselbrand and draw my cards on my next opponent's upkeep so I don't have to discard down to seven. If I fear Wipe Away, I'll draw seven on my turn without passing priority so I can at least get something out of my Griselbrand and to put him back in my graveyard for future reanimation. Unless it's late in the game, it's hard to both reanimate Griselbrand and win on the same turn no matter how many cards I draw.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you should be winning immediately upon Griselbrand entering play. There's enough Moxen and such in this deck even if you have no mana floating. In my experience with this deck, if I was going to draw 30+ cards I would usually hit enough mana sources to not have any issues even if I was completely tapped out, with the occasional exception.

[Kuma]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you should be winning immediately upon Griselbrand entering play. There's enough Moxen and such in this deck even if you have no mana floating. In my experience with this deck, if I was going to draw 30+ cards I would usually hit enough mana sources to not have any issues even if I was completely tapped out, with the occasional exception.

You may be right. Your list does run more fast mana than mine, but I could probably win a good portion of my games the turn Griselbrand comes out. I'll have to give it a try.

[Kuma]

- Academy Ruins
- Reliquary Tower

+ Island
+ Swamp

Every time I drew one of the colorless lands I wished it made colored mana. Their effects weren't worth hurting the mana base.

[Kuma]

- Griselbrand
- Animate Dead
- Dance of the Dead
- Reanimate
- Necromancy
- Exhume
- Entomb

+ Beseech the Queen
+ Tormod's Crypt
+ Nihil Spellbomb
+ Grafdigger's Cage
+ Wipe Away
+ Chain of Vapor
+ Counterspell

With Griselbrand being Griselbanned, the deck needed an overhaul. The deck needed to be more disruptive, as it wasn't powering through 2-3 good players often enough for my liking. To this end, I added graveyard hate, bounce, and countermagic to disrupt my opponents and buy me time to win.

[Admiral_Arzar]

- Griselbrand
- Animate Dead
- Dance of the Dead
- Reanimate
- Necromancy
- Exhume
- Entomb

+ Beseech the Queen
+ Tormod's Crypt
+ Nihil Spellbomb
+ Grafdigger's Cage
+ Wipe Away
+ Chain of Vapor
+ Counterspell

With Griselbrand being Griselbanned, the deck needed an overhaul. The deck needed to be more disruptive, as it wasn't powering through 2-3 good players often enough for my liking. To this end, I added graveyard hate, bounce, and countermagic to disrupt my opponents and buy me time to win.

I haven't played this deck in a long time, but I think you're going overboard with the disruption. One piece of Trinket-Mage-fetchable hate (Spellbomb because it cantrips) should be enough. I would also avoid Beseech the Queen as triple black is really hard for this deck to hit quickly, and the deck also has trouble making a lot of land drops to make Beseech actually good (and you win before you can actually tutor for anything expensive anyways). Chain of Vapor, Wipe Away, and Counterspell are definitely good enough to make the cut, although I never played CoV. I would honestly just play more draw and fast mana in place of the other graveyard hate.

[Kuma]

I haven't played this deck in a long time, but I think you're going overboard with the disruption. One piece of Trinket-Mage-fetchable hate (Spellbomb because it cantrips) should be enough.

Yeah, if I were running pods or playing randoms with this, I wouldn't need all that graveyard hate. However, in my playgroup I have to deal with super fast reanimator/combo Sharuum the Hegemon and Hermit Druid combo. I'm not sure if three pieces is enough for my group.

I would also avoid Beseech the Queen as triple black is really hard for this deck to hit quickly, and the deck also has trouble making a lot of land drops to make Beseech actually good (and you win before you can actually tutor for anything expensive anyways).

I haven't had any problems with Beseech the Queen. With the exception of Ad Nauseam, most of the cards I want to tutor for cost 3 or less. The triple black mana hasn't been a problem yet, but I wonder if going back to Diabolic Tutor wouldn't be better.

Chain of Vapor, Wipe Away, and Counterspell are definitely good enough to make the cut, although I never played CoV. I would honestly just play more draw and fast mana in place of the other graveyard hate.

Chain of Vapor is fast mana when you're trying to combo. You float mana from your lands and bounce and replay all your cheap mana rocks. Somtimes you can even hit an opposing permanent at the same time if there's nothing on your side that you can't afford to have bounced.

Specifically, what pieces of draw and fast mana should I be playing?

[Kuma]

M13 changes:

- Scroll Rack

+ Diabolic Revelation

As was discussed earlier, Scroll Rack wasn't very good in this deck. With all the fast mana, Diabolic Revelation should be able to tutor for combo pieces and protection at the same time. It can also allow us to "draw" the whole deck with infinite mana like Stroke of Genius.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yeah, if I were running pods or playing randoms with this, I wouldn't need all that graveyard hate. However, in my playgroup I have to deal with super fast reanimator/combo Sharuum the Hegemon and Hermit Druid combo. I'm not sure if three pieces is enough for my group.

Specifically, what pieces of draw and fast mana should I be playing?

I played this deck pretty much exclusively against a group of friends who played fully-powered Sharuum, Zur, Arcum, and Azami, so it wasn't exactly pods and randoms. I never felt the need for more than one piece of grave hate and maybe a Pithing Needle, as this deck is faster and often more resilient than all of those decks. Anyways.

In terms of fast mana, I would recommend Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Lion's Eye Diamond on top of what you're already playing. In terms of draw, cantrips if you don't already play them. Also, Recurring Insight and Time Spiral are both stupid bombs and win a ton of games. They make Ad Nauseam a little less powerful due to the higher CMC, but having three ridiculous draw spells is better than just one.

Another couple of tweaks: I find Blue Sun's Zenith to be better than Stroke of Genius because you can reuse it (this actually comes up if somebody answers Oona, you have infinite mana, and you need some way to deck everybody). Also, I would recommend making room for Rebuild - it's a superb protection spell that can also serve as a combo piece much like Chain of Vapor (and it cycles).

[Kuma]

I played this deck pretty much exclusively against a group of friends who played fully-powered Sharuum, Zur, Arcum, and Azami, so it wasn't exactly pods and randoms. I never felt the need for more than one piece of grave hate and maybe a Pithing Needle, as this deck is faster and often more resilient than all of those decks. Anyways.

Sorry, didn't mean to insinuate anything about the playskill of your group. I'm never sure if people are making suggestions for how to optimize a list for running pods or for playing against other, equally powered decks. Oona, Queen of the Fae is certainly the fastest out of those decks, but sometimes that's a bug, not a feature. You get hated out of the game and the second or third fastest player ends up winning.

Nihil Spellbomb seems fine because it cantrips. I could probably stand to lose Tormod's Crypt and/or Grafdigger's Cage.

Every deck I play against wins almost exclusively with activated abilities, I think I need Phyrexian Revoker as well as Pithing Needle.

In terms of fast mana, I would recommend Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Lion's Eye Diamond on top of what you're already playing. In terms of draw, cantrips if you don't already play them. Also, Recurring Insight and Time Spiral are both stupid bombs and win a ton of games. They make Ad Nauseam a little less powerful due to the higher CMC, but having three ridiculous draw spells is better than just one.

I'm going to test Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Lion's Eye Diamond. I'm not a fan of these because of the card disadvantage, but I guess Ad Nauseam, etc. makes up for it.

Recurring Insight and Time Spiral were both in the deck once. Maybe they're worth another shot over the extra grave hate.

I don't like cantrips in EDH, especially ones other than Brainstorm. With Ponder, it's too difficult in a highlander format to identify if the top three cards in your deck are better than a random three. Also, there are tons of playable, legal tutors that just find you what you need instead of durdling with the top of your deck.

Another couple of tweaks: I find Blue Sun's Zenith to be better than Stroke of Genius because you can reuse it (this actually comes up if somebody answers Oona, you have infinite mana, and you need some way to deck everybody). Also, I would recommend making room for Rebuild - it's a superb protection spell that can also serve as a combo piece much like Chain of Vapor (and it cycles).

Targeting myself with the Stroke of Genius and drawing my deck does the same thing for a smaller colored mana investment. Once I have my deck in my hand, I can re-cast Oona, Queen of the Fae if she was tucked. If there's a permanent or permanents preventing me from using her, I can cast Gemstone Array and bounce every permanent with Capsize with multiple free counterspells as backup. If Oona, Queen of the Fae somehow ended up in my graveyard, I can get her back with Yawgmoth's Will. Also, with Diabolic Revelation, Blue Sun's Zenith becomes even more redundant.

I can draw my deck with infinite colorless mana for only with Stroke of Genius. With Blue Sun's Zenith, I need , and that's often too much colored mana to draw my deck the same turn I go infinite.

I've been meaning to fit Rebuild in here for the same reason I run Chain of Vapor. Hurkyl's Recall should probably be in here too for the same reason. Might be worth running Mycosynth Lattice again. Hurkyl's Recall + Mycosynth Lattice takes someone out of the game.

[Kuma]

+ Lotus Petal
+ Chrome Mox
+ Mox Diamond
+ Lion's Eye Diamond
+ Mycosynth Lattice
+ Rebuild
+ Hurkyl's Recall
+ Time Spiral
+ Recurring Insight

- Grafdigger's Cage
- Beseech the Queen
- Tormod's Crypt
- Wipe Away
- Mystic Remora
- Lim-Dul's Vault
- Tidespout Tyrant
- Yawgmoth's Will
- Thran Dynamo

I've decided to try out a build with more fast mana. So far I've been happy with most of the fast mana cards in this post, but a few might not make the cut. Mycosynth Lattice makes it much easier to win with infinite colorless mana and turns Hurkyl's Recall into "Destroy target player." Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall help generate mana on a combo turn while doubling as answers to problem artifacts like Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. Time Spiral and Recurring Insight give the deck added gas.

Beseech the Queen wasn't worth it. In this deck, Diabolic Tutor is a better card, and I wasn't even running it. Now that the plan is "be faster than the graveyard decks," I don't need the extra pieces of graveyard hate. Most of Wipe Away's usefulness is subsumed by Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild. I still have Capsize if I need to bounce a non-artifact permanent. Mystic Remora and Tidespout Tyrant were better in theory than in practice. I almost never used Tidespout Tyrant, and his CMC of eight was problematic with Ad Nauseam. Mystic Remora just made my opponents slow down, and I couldn't capitalize since I had to spend all my mana on Cumulative Upkeep. Yawgmoth's Will hadn't been used in months, so it gets the axe. Thran Dynamo was the worst of the mana rocks and losing its CMC of four will help Ad Nauseam. Lim-Dul's Vault wasn't worth paying all that life for with Ad Nauseam being plan A.

[Kuma]

- Nihil Spellbomb
- Fellwar Stone

+ Llawan, Cephalid Empress
+ Yawgmoth's Will

Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a backbreaking card against most of the top-tier generals. I decided I need Yawgmoth's Will, because I was running zero cards that get things out of my graveyard, and as much as I hate to admit it, I need to be able to play through having Basalt Monolith and Power Artifact in my graveyard.

[jimirynk]

Why is there 2 different Oona threads?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why is there 2 different Oona threads?

I don't see another one on the first two pages, unless you're referring to Bryant's combo thread, which mostly uses Zur nowadays.

Kuma, I'm interested in how your results went after cutting Tidespout Tyrant, Remora, etc. I can see cutting Tyrant (although I have won a number of games with that thing, your reasoning for getting rid of it is perfectly legitimate) but Remora has been such a bomb for me that I could never cut it. As soon as you see a multi-player counterwar it becomes the best thing ever.

[jimirynk]

Then I guess I'll post my list here,

1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [M10] Swamp (4)
9 [NPH] Island (2)
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [10E] Underground River
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [CMD] Command Tower
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [AN] City of Brass
1 [OD] Darkwater Catacombs
1 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
1 [FUT] River of Tears
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
1 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [FUT] Magus of the Future
1 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [FD] Doubling Cube
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [FUT] Coalition Relic
1 [IA] Mystic Remora
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [UL] Frantic Search
1 [MR] Sculpting Steel
1 [5E] Counterspell
1 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [A] Timetwister
1 [6E] Vampiric Tutor
1 [US] Voltaic Key
1 [AVR] Temporal Mastery
1 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [10E] Mind Stone
1 [A] Copy Artifact
1 [M11] Preordain
1 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [ARC] Dimir Signet
1 [ZEN] Rite of Replication
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [DDF] Everflowing Chalice
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
1 [US] Yawgmoth's Will
1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
1 [UD] Treachery
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [U] Demonic Tutor
1 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FUT] Cloud Key
1 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [BD] Impulse
1 [US] Time Spiral
1 [FD] Night's Whisper
1 [LRW] Rings of Brighthearth
1 [MM] Misdirection
1 [DM] Necropotence
1 [ON] Future Sight
1 [MR] Fabricate
1 [8E] Bribery
1 [ROE] Recurring Insight
1 [A] Basalt Monolith
1 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [MR] Talisman of Dominance
1 [CMD] Spell Crumple
1 [UL] Memory Jar
1 [JGC] Mana Crypt
1 [ARC] Thran Dynamo
1 [B] Sol Ring
1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
1 [AQ] Power Artifact
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
1 [WWK] Dispel
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [MR] Gilded Lotus
1 [CST] Dark Ritual
1 [LRW] Ponder
1 [4E] Mana Vault
1 [LG] Mana Drain
1 [CHK] Hinder
SB: 1 [SHM] Oona, Queen of the Fae

[Kuma]

Kuma, I'm interested in how your results went after cutting Tidespout Tyrant, Remora, etc. I can see cutting Tyrant (although I have won a number of games with that thing, your reasoning for getting rid of it is perfectly legitimate) but Remora has been such a bomb for me that I could never cut it. As soon as you see a multi-player counterwar it becomes the best thing ever.

I think I won maybe two games this year with Tidespout Tyrant, which isn't much considering I play about 4-5 games per week.

I have a love/hate relationship with Mystic Remora. What I've found is that if you aren't going first or second and casting Mystic Remora on your first turn, you end up spending more mana than it's worth. I've had Mystic Remora be a draw four for U and a draw one for 8U. I'd say on average it has been a draw two for 5U. It hasn't worked out for me often enough to justify its inclusion. It hasn't helped that my playgroup has moved towards more creature based decks like Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Maelstrom Wanderer.

@jimirynk

From the look of it, I'd guess your primary win condition is Future Sight combo. I've long debated whether I should make my Oona, Queen of the Fae list into Future Sight combo since the pieces are all useful on their own. How has Future Sight combo been working for you? Do you win more games with it or with Basalt Monolith/Power Artifact?