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Thread: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

  1. #81
    bruizar
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by millerd33 View Post
    How is playing within the rules wizards set up being selfish? I chose a format that fit what I was looking to get out of the game. Both socially and financially. I didn't create the reserve list nor would I call for it had one not exist. I made moves with my collection based on it though. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a game with people more my age. We obviously disagree so i'm just curious why you take it so personally to the point you would tell me to go play at a country club. Based on your reply I can see your question was only a way to keep me talking about this and to attack no matter what answer I gave. You have a good day sir. Best of Luck to you and your family.

    Back on topic: Even if these cards were reprinted there is no way to get them to the players. Is anyone able to purchase from the vaults x4 at msrp? Not everyone that's for sure. Eternal booster boxes sound great. Problem is they have to get through the store to get to the players. If Underground Sea was in a booster box there is 0 chance the store would not just bust the boxes themselves and clean up on the secondary market.

    How would you get these reprints to the players without the retailers charging way above msrp for the sealed product or just break them themselves?
    Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise

  2. #82
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise
    True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.
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  3. #83

    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.
    i think birds also went down in price cuz noble hierarch got printed.

  4. #84
    bruizar
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    True story, this card (wb 4th edition) used to be worth $12. Oh man what a rich time that was.
    The only versions of BoP that are worth money are the pimp ones -> Beta, Alpha, 7th foil. The rest cratered hard (including revised and unlimited). This is why I don't feel safe having white bordered cards (read: p3k) on my hands. When they start reprinting P3K all hell will break loose. *cough* imperial seal *cough *recruiter*

  5. #85
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Keep printing until the price collapses -> birds of paradise
    Good call. I've been using BoP as an example of what enough reprints will do to a card's price point for years. Noble Hierarch was a nail in the coffin, sure, but if a site like findmagiccards.com is to be trusted at all, the card in all its various print runs has been slowly devaluing since about the middle of 2005 (That was Ravnica block - Hierarch didn't get printed until mid 2009, FWIW).

    As long as people use the price of the game pieces as a means to filter out who gets to play and who doesn't, the game will never be transcendent like Chess or Poker. There may be certain barriers in place to break into tournament play in those games, but then again a six-year old with $5 in her pocket can go buy a deck of cards or a fake plastic chess set and have the entire game at their disposal. I don't have any illusions of seeing decks like ANT turning into $5 decks, but that doesn't mean that the corollary needs to be the way of things either; what a shocker that the average Magic player both plays Standard and only plays for 2 years, you can pick up a pre-con for under $20 bucks and boom, you're a Magic player. You've gotta be a weird bird to get into a format where you need to hunt all over hell and back for a deal on 4 cards in your deck; Standard's price is deceptively low even with the constant rotation, because again the average player sees that the money they spent on their deck is sort of crap after two years; they can't play it in Standard, it's not necessarily very good in Modern and most of the time it will be terrible in Legacy or Vintage, so that 'average player' isn't dropping nearly as much on their hobby as an Eternal player. Their initial investment goes to shit, they then hear that if they want to roll with the big boys they have to spend an arbitrary amount of money on their 'land spells' and they bail. Big surprise.

  6. #86
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    What people don't get is that the reserve list has *no* bearing on value of cards, at least not stuff that wasn't originally short-printed (Arabian, Antiquities, A/B/U).

    Playability is the only thing that matters. When Legacy dies (or goes the way of vintage), duals will tank, lets face it. Maybe not A/B ones, but revised? There's a ton of them out there. The way things are going, Modern will take place of Legacy. The only way Legacy could have been saved was through the thinning (not abolishing) of the reserve list.Everyone would have been happy, and we would not be having this discussion right now.

  7. #87
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    It's funny that how 70% of the cards in the Reserved List cost less than $4 each. The list doesn't really do much when it comes to card prices.

    I noticed that the cards that hold high value in that list are the playable cards.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Can we have a poll about this? Something like "Would you like the reserve list gone?"
    Is it done before?

  9. #89
    bruizar
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    The saving grace to white bordered duals is EDH, since beta duals are often too expensive for even the most pimped out dudes.

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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CorpT View Post
    ...Go play at a country club or something if you want an exclusive crowd with immature people.

    I fix 4 u lol

    But in all seriousness, I'm pretty sure a limited run of Reserve list cards would be snapped up hardcore by collectors. Some amount would actually make it into players' hands. Depending on the print run and length thereof, those guys with sets of Alpha/Beta duals just might be a majority of the people who obtain the release set verses the common player. The foil Alara block boosters would be an example of what could occur. In the end, all we have now is speculation. The only big fluctuation in pricing would happen with new printings of reserve cards. A/B/U/R Duals and so on will stay collectable and stay valuable. To what degree, that's what irks people.

  11. #91
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    The way things are going, Modern will take place of Legacy. The only way Legacy could have been saved was through the thinning (not abolishing) of the reserve list.Everyone would have been happy, and we would not be having this discussion right now.
    Could you pls stop repeating 24/7 that Legacy's dead because of Modern?
    Gees.
    I agree that thinning the reserved list would have been awesome though.
    Modern is played monthly over here (for quite some time now) and you know what, always 4-8 people show up, staring at 70-90 Legacy players.
    Modern is only relevant because of its introduction to competetive Magic.
    I dipped into the format myself to get to know it and it is definetly far away from beeing a complete mess, but tons of players would choose Legacy over it every single time because the format by itself (Legacy) is great and card availability is a problem modern has already (which should be alarming in terms of how young the format is).
    When it somes down to spending money to stay competetive in modern, I would go so far to say that you have to invest even more money than starting to play Legacy in a long-term sight.
    Modern is the most undefined format ever, which contains a whole lot of expensive staples (and prices are still going through the roof) which are required to play a relevant deck.
    The monthly changing meta and the fact that you can pilot tons of decks at the higher tables (at least right now, even if some decks drawn somewhat clear lines around whats playable) create absurd prices of cards and a insecure market, which I for myself feel not very pleased with.
    Buy a staple, see it gets banned 3 month later. Buy the mana-base, see better equivalents getting printed. And I am not even talking about relevant cards coming in each new set. Modern is really the gold-farting donkey they searched for quite some time and if people are willing to take a whacky ride on it, not my problem, but this doens't make things any better.
    If you try to stay realistic, you would realize that it is so damn expensive to own the card pool which is necessary to compete in this format, that I get the impression that I am talking to a troll, hiding behind pseudo-intellectual phrases, randomly thrown into empty forum space.
    In response...Hypothek!

  12. #92

    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    This idea that legacy is being held back because of price is very funny. There are big tournaments as well as dedicated local playgroups. Do you think it’s gonna replace standard?
    The power level is too high for wizards to ever push it past where it is. They don't want cards like LED floating around because the game is being streamlined as much as possible. Legacy/Vintage interactions are just huge a rules mess that we understand cause we play the formats a lot. Wizards business model is based off bringing in new players.
    They are happy to throw old players a bone with some large events, but that’s as far as it will ever go, regardless of the price of the cards.
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  13. #93

    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    I think the barrier for entry is more of the stigma that surrounds eternal formats like vintage and legacy, players coming from standard (basically everyone) may find these formats very daunting, especially with common misconceptions like first turn kills aplenty and complex.stack interactions that many would rather not bother with. Modern may facilitate the progression to eternal formats due to its intermediary nature.

  14. #94

    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    What people don't get is that the reserve list has *no* bearing on value of cards, at least not stuff that wasn't originally short-printed (Arabian, Antiquities, A/B/U).

    Playability is the only thing that matters. When Legacy dies (or goes the way of vintage), duals will tank, lets face it. Maybe not A/B ones, but revised? There's a ton of them out there. The way things are going, Modern will take place of Legacy. The only way Legacy could have been saved was through the thinning (not abolishing) of the reserve list.Everyone would have been happy, and we would not be having this discussion right now.
    This man speaks in truth facts. Even worse it goes along with the plan of the evil WotC to move players to a format which benefits them more, like Modern. But people cried and cried about their Carrion Ants tanking from $75.00 to $.50 over night.

    The foil promo clause should have remained. Then you could inject cards periodically, which might scare some folks into selling and thus creating some bottoms in the market. From the vaults realms with 10 foil dual lands would have a short term effect on revised prices but largely not impact beta/alpha/fbb as enough people despise foils and the print run is pretty limited.

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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher View Post
    Could you pls stop repeating 24/7 that Legacy's dead because of Modern?
    Why? Explain to me again how it's incorrect. I've seen it happen with Vintage. Legacy was created because vintage was too inaccessible. They banned Mask off the bat because of cost!

    Legacy started off slow. When I joined this site back in 2005, we were still holding 10-proxy vintage tournaments in Rio de Janeiro. Nobody cared about Legacy there at the time. It then grew in popularity. Modern will be the same.

    I'm sorry, I love Legacy, but it is not sustainable. The reserve list cripples the format. It's that simple.

  16. #96
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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    What people don't get is that the reserve list has *no* bearing on value of cards, at least not stuff that wasn't originally short-printed (Arabian, Antiquities, A/B/U).
    When most Legacy players refer to the "Reserved List," they mean "About 40 cards that matter but won't be reprinted."

    I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but agree that the limited supply of some staples (mainly good duals, FoW, and some other key cards) will ensure that Legacy remains a niche format until it just sort of goes away.

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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    When most Legacy players refer to the "Reserved List," they mean "About 40 cards that matter but won't be reprinted."

    I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but agree that the limited supply of some staples (mainly good duals, FoW, and some other key cards) will ensure that Legacy remains a niche format until it just sort of goes away.
    Which is why they should have done a final revision to the List, and made it so that it was A/B/U/Antiquities/Arabian Nights plus Starter 1999 if they really wanted to.

    That way, only cards whose only version is in English would have been protected. Then ban accordingly. Players happy, collectors happy. Alas, no.

    Edit: Which is one of the reasons I sold most of my cards. I mean, I love the game and stuff, but Wizards (Hasbro?) really shit the bed with this thing. They were clearly signaling they would abolish the list, then did an about face. That did it for me, and I stood to "lose" a chunk of change. For me, being able to play with all my cards is (was?) of the utmost importance. They, instead, decided to cater to who knows who. Which isn't me. Oh, sure, I still draft here and there, but I don't spend nowhere near the same amount of money and time as I did in the past.

  18. #98

    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    This man speaks in truth facts. Even worse it goes along with the plan of the evil WotC to move players to a format which benefits them more, like Modern. But people cried and cried about their Carrion Ants tanking from $75.00 to $.50 over night.

    The foil promo clause should have remained. Then you could inject cards periodically, which might scare some folks into selling and thus creating some bottoms in the market. From the vaults realms with 10 foil dual lands would have a short term effect on revised prices but largely not impact beta/alpha/fbb as enough people despise foils and the print run is pretty limited.
    The problem wasn't the elimination of the foil clause- it was the elimination of doubt. For years, people thought that "well, given that they already took lots of cards off Reserved List and given that they have the foil loophole it's quite possible that they might do away with it entirely some day." This was a decent, if not great, situation and it helped keep prices down.

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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    @Bardo
    Can we have a poll about this?

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    Re: Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
    Why? Explain to me again how it's incorrect. I've seen it happen with Vintage. Legacy was created because vintage was too inaccessible. They banned Mask off the bat because of cost!

    Legacy started off slow. When I joined this site back in 2005, we were still holding 10-proxy vintage tournaments in Rio de Janeiro. Nobody cared about Legacy there at the time. It then grew in popularity. Modern will be the same.

    I'm sorry, I love Legacy, but it is not sustainable. The reserve list cripples the format. It's that simple.
    That is different from what you said in former posts.
    The reserved list will be (at some point) responsible for the fading of Legacy, not the modern format. I am aware of that (as I mentioned in a handfull of posts in all sort of threads here) and I am just annoyed of how short-sighted that "modern-
    argument" is, thats it.
    Modern is not responsible for the problem Legacy has (better will have at some point), modern by itself has enough stuff to deal with (even if Wizards desperatly try to fix it) and is far away from beeing a thread in terms of how players are attracted to it. And this won't change as soon as some players fear right now.
    I agree that Wizards isn't interested in a peaceful co-existence of these formats, which is sad, but not the end of the world (hopefully).
    With that beeing said, I hope players who read this thread are encouraged to introduce the format to new players, don't behave like elitist muppets and are willing to lend cards to those who can't afford the money to own the staples.
    A sinking ship is still sinking, regardless how many jeweled pirates are on it, and some players really need to realize that, but no, Modern is not the thread you try to declare it to.
    In response...Hypothek!

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