Card prices should both rise and fall; complaining that game would become X if cards were reprinted is just dogmatism. And of course the point isn't that those cards haven't been reprinted, it's that those cards hold value even though people are 100% aware that they might be reprinted in some form.Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
I disagree. Reserve list cards have done plenty of rise and fall over the years. Look at last summer's HYPE-APOCALYPSE with the SCG buy list etc.
Edit: Since you edited your entire post...
Except they do not, look at Stoneforge Mystic as a great example of the opposite of what you are saying. Edit: Elaboration - trucked along as a 25.00 card for quite a while, event deck news came out - tanked to shit before the product was even released and now is what 6.00?
Also I assumed we all understood that the removal of the reserved list would imply that the cards would be reprinted, else what would be the point, correct? So this changes the understanding that x card would be printed from a maybe to a positive which clearly in the case of Stoneforge Mystic carries much greater repercussions then "my Jace might be reprinted at some point later down the line".
You don't think that had anything to do being banned in both Standard and Modern? So should WotC not be allowed to ban cards because you bought already bought them and you want to retain your precious value?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I thought we were talking about Eternal Formats? The Source for Legacy?
Any other nit picky child responses you would like to post? I can run circles all day.
Personally I agree with JACO in that Legacy is doing quite well. I do not understand where all this resentment for the reserved list comes from and I can only assume it is for personal reasons like envy.
You were talking about a specific card, he answered to that point. If you're not here to discuss, don't bother.
No I do not believe it dropped solely because of the banning. There are plenty of cards banned in Standard and Modern that are center pieces for Legacy and Vintage that could potentially drop in a similar fashion if WoTC were allowed to reprint without restrictions.
So we should ignore Standard's effect on prices because this is a Legacy? I don't even understand what your point is.
How do you explain Mox Diamond's price? It has been reprinted and is on the reserve list and your precious value is relatively unchanged.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I have a full 40 of duals. You claim to have zero. How is it envy if I am willing to see my own cards devalued.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Clearly a format staple worthy of it's ludicrous price. Yes we should ignore the effect of Standard and Modern because most of the cards are no longer legal in those formats. It's a non factor, you could argue for Stoneforge but for the rest going forward, no. Did Jace tank after the banning? Not even close to the way Stoneforge did because Jace didn't get reprinted as a x2 in a 25.00 event deck at the same time.
Most arguments I see are "I cannot afford" "abolish the reserve list". Yeah there's exceptions people with large collections like JACO have held a similar stance to yours. Just because you have a set of duals doesn't mean 100% of the people with large collections feel the same way or agree with your charity.
So, to recap:
If a card is a format staple, reprinting it doesn't effect it's value, like Mox Diamond.
We should ignore Standard and Modern because most of the cards are not legal in those formats and so reprinting a card like Stoneforge Mystic affected the price, but not it being banned in those formats.
What about Chain Lightning? It used to be an $11 card. Now it's a $9 card. All because of that travesty known as reprinting. Those poor players who invested their hard earned money to buy $11 Chains only to see a loss of 2 whole dollars while they played with those cards for years. Terrible.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I was being sarcastic about Mox Diamond being a format staple. I do not consider it to be. Rather my point was you pulling corner cases with arguably limited play and functionally outdated and power creep-ed cards is a waste of time.
We should ignore Standard and Modern. Jace and Stoneforge were banned at the same time, only one utterly tanked in price and failed to recover - the one that was reprinted at the same time.
Chain Lighting? See Mox Diamond.
[If you did agree upon that fact, why you then bother on prices changing at all?
You are constantly contradicting your own statements which makes it somewhat hard to follow what you are trying to say.
No personal insult intended, but it seems you try to charade your twisted feelings about investment and the game as a hobby behind nonsense arguments... .
In response...Hypothek!
The reserved list has no place in a game. Hobbies can be expensive but if I am buying gear for scuba diving or rock climbing at least I feel I am getting value for money. $100 for a piece of cardboard? It is not like it is an oil painting.
I play Legacy rather than Modern because I already have my manabase (duals) from when they were in boosters and resent the idea of spending money on more lands (Shocks, Scars Duals) that do not add anything new to my decks. I do not mind spending a bit of money on spells since they actually do something new and interesting. Lands, while actually being the backbone of a deck, are not what players want to be spending cash on.
I think it is just those ten dual land cards on the reserved list that is holding Legacy back. A few cards like Null Rod, Moat & Tabernacle would be more widely used if available but I do not think that would make a large shift in the meta.
The fact that we continually have this argument points to the idea that there is something wrong. But here's the thing. This is just a waste of time. A bit of mutual masturbation. The reason that the two camps cannot agree on a verdict on the Reserved List is because we are working from different premises.
It is my opinion that Magic: the Gathering is, first and foremost, a game. Everything else takes a backseat to that. Flavor, collectibility, everything. I am involved in Magic because I enjoy the intellectual contest. And from that starting point, it is impossible not to be in favor of the abolishment of the Reserved List and a reprinting of overly expensive cards. It has never been and will never be my desire to beat someone simply because I have deeper pockets than them. If the cards were all available direct from Wizards as singles at $0.10 each, I would enjoy the game more because the general level of competitiveness as a whole would rise. It is also my opinion that the cards have value only because of the game aspect. These aren't baseball cards where people collect their favorite player/team. There are people that collect complete sets, but honestly, if there were no game attached to these cards, they'd be worth less than the paperboard they're printed on. To my mind, that cements the idea that the game comes first and that anything collectors and flavor enthusiasts get out of the game is simply icing on the cake.
But some people don't feel that Magic should be considered a game first and everything else second. Mark Rosewater, for example, is far more concerned with flavor than he is with actual gameplay. I think MaRo is an idiot and that he shouldn't be in charge of development, but he is entitled to his opinion, same as I'm entitled to mine. His just happens to carry more weight with the powers that be. Some people feel that collectibility is first. They stress that it's a *collectible* card game. Those people want the cards to continually ramp in value, so that they feel like they're getting some investment out of their collection.
Until we come to an agreement on which aspect of the game is most important, we cannot begin to approach an agreement on what conclusions to draw. Since the premise each camp works under is a highly personal and relatively immutable thing, there's really no point in arguing it. Honestly, the only reason I've stuck my head in here is to try and correct faulty logic.
I would like to note with glee, however (since I'm feeling a little petty), that Ertai's posted right after me talking about how great and levelheaded Backseat's post was, displaying a complete ignorance of business fundamentals on both of their parts. Then he completely ignored my post for the rest of the thread, since he couldn't argue with it and it wasn't evidence of his point of view. It was almost Christian-like. I lol'd.
This and nothing more. I would love to see each card being 50 cent so I and my friends could all play the format and game we like, testing new decks to beat the competition. I'm not going to spend $100 on some silly blue dual, even though I could. I feel this is a shame because it limits the card pool of individual players and therefore limiting their creativity and competitivity. I don't give a crap about stockholders and such. In the Netherlands tournaments are organized by local stores and local gamers, so there is no such thing as SCG involved. Sure, my collection would be worth less, but why should I care? After all it is a hobby, so it is about having fun, not the amount of money you put in or get back...
Incidentally, I would probably have way less fun playing if Eternal cards were really cheap. One of the reasons that I enjoy the Eternal formats (Vintage, Legacy) is that they require a big buy-in (either in time or money). Quite frankly, it keeps the riff-raff away. I'm sure I'll get attacked and called an elitist snob, but I don't care. I don't have much fun playing against the majority of Magic players. They are rude, annoying, stupid, and/or smelly. I love Magic, but I don't like (or want to be around) most of the other people that flock to the game. I've noticed a trend about this though. The people that have the cards to play Legacy and Vintage (even with some proxies) tend to be much more enjoyable to be around and to play with compared with people who play the other formats. My feeling is that this is because you can't really play these formats without some investment in it (also, the crowd tends to be older and more mature).
I think that you should have to "pay your dues" to play Eternal formats. I don't want to play with people who don't know the rules, don't take the game seriously, and are not invested in the game. Having all the cards be inexpensive cheapens the whole enterprise. If all the cards only cost $0.10 each, you'd end up with the same crap you get on MWS where people don't even know the rules/what cards do. I'm not saying that the Reserve List is a good idea (it's not) or that all cards should be infinitely expensive (the current price of duals is ridiculous), but I think people should have to spend some money and do some legwork for the privilege of playing formats like Vintage and Legacy. Unfortunately, assholes with money can still afford to buy-in and some people who would bring a lot to the game and be fun to play with can't get their foot in the door due to the up front costs (either in time or money).
The current system is not ideal, but neither is cheap copies of every card for all. I'd love to find some way to keep the buy-in reasonable enough that people who really want to play can, but still have it high enough that the jerks, little kids, and idiots don't bother. (Note: I'm not saying that youngsters shouldn't be able to play, just that they should have to work their way up to formats like Legacy and Vintage in most cases).
Is the reason for a better crowd in Eternal formats the price or the formats themselves? Because I've been playing Modern a ton lately and the format, while fun because of the untuned metagame, is not nearly as complex or thought-provoking as Legacy.
both cards tanked in price.
stoneforge went from 25 doen to 10. the reprinting brought it to 6 i think.
jace went from 120 down to 65 IIRC.
Sorry, I will explain it in a better way.
I agree with aahz, concerning the buy-in price. I wouldnt not enjoy it either to play with people who bought their deck for 10€. I like the prices as they are somewhat of a goal you can work to (I own 10 blue Duals). And as said Legacy is a hobby. It takes time, money and some love for this format to get into - and this is the way it should be.
A little story....:
Im hosting Local Tourneys at nearby city. First I was alone, then I was looking to all playgroups and visited all tournaments to be held in this city. Then I told everyone I was building up a Legacy-Scene and in no time a few of old time players joined me, making us 6 people. Our first tournament had 8 people, where the 2 guys without decks did NOT use proxies - they used the decks we had left. After I took home the first tournament with my BW Deadguy I started to love Legacy more and more and sold this deck in order to buy the blue pool. Over time we have 14 players with decks and 6-10 people whithout. But they still play with us - because we always have some nonblue decks to give away.
Even though a few of you might argue now that I would have 24 active players if the cards were cheaper, I like it the way it is now. Because the players without decks spend alot of time in forums/internetmagic to train and this way we have a healthy little metagame. We like Legacy the way it is.
Greetings
Snob!
Seriously though I agree that a lot of MTG players are the great unwashed with trash decks.While 50c would make getting card easy I think that is unrealistic. If duals were $25 you could get a playset for a reasonable $100, maybe $90, and build a decent deck.
Surely more dedicated players is better? You can build infect and Pox decks for $50 and look at the success of Burn at two SCG for a well performing $100-150 deck.
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