Reserved List: Is it really what is holding back Legacy?

[joemauer]

Force of Will and Wasteland should be reprinted in M13 as uncommons.
End of discussion.

[Mr. Safety]

Force of Will and Wasteland should be reprinted in M13 as uncommons.
End of discussion.

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

[CorpT]

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

You mean like all those Standard staples that didn't make the leap to Legacy. Like Jace, SFM, GSZ, Knight, Noble, Batterskull, Lingering Souls, Pridemage, Delver, Snapcaster, Thalia, Elspeth, and Inquisition.

Those are the Standard staples printed since Alara that saw top 8 appearances at Indy. Only Jace/SFM broke standard. Printing something like Force or Wasteland is totally doable in Standard. Without cards like Brainstorm, Fetches, etc... these cards are not nearly as powerful. Without reasons to play them, like Turn 1 combos, why are people starting decks with 4 FoW? They're probably not. I don't think it would be a different power level than recent history.

[joemauer]

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

Yeah I remember when they printed tarmogofy, dark confidant, and mental misstep; they all were nuts in standard and hardly affected Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

Keep wishing...it ain't happening.

I don't think standard would turn into 'OMG the format is broken!' but it would certainly have a power level different than in recent history.

I think only Waste would be considerably good and overplayed in any standard, but something like Force wouldn't even be that good imho when the format is so slow and attrition-based (compared to Legacy of course). You don't need force to counter T4 or T5 bombs. And MM is almost unplayed.

[Tammit67]

I think only Waste would be considerably good and overplayed in any standard, but something like Force wouldn't even be that good imho when the format is so slow and attrition-based (compared to Legacy of course). You don't need force to counter T4 or T5 bombs. And MM is almost unplayed.

Forget standard, modern would be ruined as we know it.

[CorpT]

Forget standard, modern would be ruined as we know it.

They've shown that they are ok with banning overpowered cards in Modern. Jace, SFM, GSZ, Misstep, etc... Not sure why they couldn't just ban either or both of those.

[Humphrey]

actually they could unban combopieces with fow in the format, but wasteland would destroy everything. besides, modern would be a bad version of legacy not a unique format they try it to become
i thought theyll reprint wasteland before they introduced modern, but now well never see it again in standard

[SpikeyMikey]

As far as Modern goes:

Wasteland would probably kill Tron. I don't really consider that a bad thing. It would definitely make things more interesting for Jund as well, although it probably wouldn't actually kill the deck. Otherwise, most of the rest of the decks out there would adjust pretty easily. Affinity might run Wasteland in place of one of the 8 Nexus lands, or it might not. Hard to say. The faster, more aggressive versions probably would; the Etched Champion/Steelshaper's Gifts versions almost certainly wouldn't. Bant could survive Wasteland just fine. Faeries would run it, but I don't think it would make the deck significantly scarier; the countermagic is what keeps that afloat, not the fast clock. Martyr decks would get another abusive tool with Sun Titan; it might bring that deck back. Melira/Pod decks might be able to find room for 2-3 for their own Sun Titan, but that deck is already generally in 3+ colors. U/R Storm wouldn't want it, although it might make the deck a little more palatable for aggro decks looking to buy a little time. Ditto Splinter Twin.

It might lead to new archetypes, as existing ones aren't really set up to take advantage of Wasteland; either they're tapping out every turn and run low land counts (affinity, storm, etc.) or they're in too many colors to abuse colorless lands, given how painful duals are in that format. I guess maybe Living End would become a real deck. That'd be rather shitty, but life goes on.

[DLifshitz]

As far as Modern goes:

I believe you are underestimating the impact Wasteland would have on Modern. Currently the manabases of most decks there are so full of nonbasics, for all intents and purposes Wasteland would be Strip Mine. Almost all decks would have to adapt to Wasteland by lowering their mana curves. I doubt that cute-but-expensive cards like Bloodbraid Elf and Cryptic Command would keep being played, just like they're not played in Legacy.

Most decks would also have to adjust their manabases pretty heavily so as to be more resilient. Wedge color combinations (like BGW) would instantly become better because they can use 8 on-color fetchlands, which makes it easy to always find basic lands. Loam decks and anything that can play KotR would instantly become better for obvious reasons.

If Wasteland is reprinted at all, it will not become legal in Standard and Modern, simply because R&D has a well-known dislike of land destruction. (But they don't seem to have anything against overpowered unkillable creatures and a near-total extinction of control in a format...) What's more, the weak land destruction that is/was available in Standard and Modern (Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, Smallpox, Boom//Bust, ...) does see a reasonable amount of play, so there's little reason to print something much better.

[DLifshitz]

As far as Modern goes:

Wasteland would probably kill Tron. I don't really consider that a bad thing. It would definitely make things more interesting for Jund as well, although it probably wouldn't actually kill the deck. Otherwise, most of the rest of the decks out there would adjust pretty easily. Affinity might run Wasteland in place of one of the 8 Nexus lands, or it might not. Hard to say. The faster, more aggressive versions probably would; the Etched Champion/Steelshaper's Gifts versions almost certainly wouldn't. Bant could survive Wasteland just fine. Faeries would run it, but I don't think it would make the deck significantly scarier; the countermagic is what keeps that afloat, not the fast clock. Martyr decks would get another abusive tool with Sun Titan; it might bring that deck back. Melira/Pod decks might be able to find room for 2-3 for their own Sun Titan, but that deck is already generally in 3+ colors. U/R Storm wouldn't want it, although it might make the deck a little more palatable for aggro decks looking to buy a little time. Ditto Splinter Twin.

It might lead to new archetypes, as existing ones aren't really set up to take advantage of Wasteland; either they're tapping out every turn and run low land counts (affinity, storm, etc.) or they're in too many colors to abuse colorless lands, given how painful duals are in that format. I guess maybe Living End would become a real deck. That'd be rather shitty, but life goes on.

I believe you are underestimating the impact Wasteland would have on Modern. Currently the manabases of most decks there are so full of nonbasics, for all intents and purposes Wasteland would be Strip Mine. Almost all decks would have to adapt to Wasteland by lowering their mana curves. I doubt that cute-but-expensive cards like Bloodbraid Elf and Cryptic Command would keep being played.

Most decks would also have to adjust their manabases. Wedge color combinations (like BGW) would instantly become better because they can use 8 on-color fetchlands, which makes it easy to always find basic lands. Loam decks and anything that can play KotR would instantly become better for obvious reasons. It would be very easy to create a Wasteland lock.

[Mr. Safety]

You mean like all those Standard staples that didn't make the leap to Legacy. Like Jace, SFM, GSZ, Knight, Noble, Batterskull, Lingering Souls, Pridemage, Delver, Snapcaster, Thalia, Elspeth, and Inquisition.

Those are the Standard staples printed since Alara that saw top 8 appearances at Indy. Only Jace/SFM broke standard. Printing something like Force or Wasteland is totally doable in Standard. Without cards like Brainstorm, Fetches, etc... these cards are not nearly as powerful. Without reasons to play them, like Turn 1 combos, why are people starting decks with 4 FoW? They're probably not. I don't think it would be a different power level than recent history.

You make a good point, and I think we are agreeing on a fundamental level. I also think standard can handle Wasteland and Force of Will.

Most of my thinking was that a free counterspell would allow the best threats in the format to dominate. Tapping out for a big threat while still having Force in hand is very powerful, much more powerful than leaving 2 mana open for Mana Leak should someone attempt to kill your threat. That to me seems more powerful than recent history in standard, but it's just speculation. An opinion, and a subjective one at that. But, you're probably right...

When I said 'it ain't happening' it was more of a tongue-in-cheek statment about Wizards not really looking at impact to formats, but rather just being self-absorbed in creating new cards according to their own agenda. Their agenda includes reasoning like 'land destruction is not fun, make it suck' and 'aggro is the best, keep printing awesome 2-drop creatures' and 'for God's sake, don't print any more good counterspells, we all know what happened with Mental Misstep in legacy.'

[CorpT]

You make a good point, and I think we are agreeing on a fundamental level. I also think standard can handle Wasteland and Force of Will.

Most of my thinking was that a free counterspell would allow the best threats in the format to dominate. Tapping out for a big threat while still having Force in hand is very powerful, much more powerful than leaving 2 mana open for Mana Leak should someone attempt to kill your threat. That to me seems more powerful than recent history in standard, but it's just speculation. An opinion, and a subjective one at that. But, you're probably right...

When I said 'it ain't happening' it was more of a tongue-in-cheek statment about Wizards not really looking at impact to formats, but rather just being self-absorbed in creating new cards according to their own agenda. Their agenda includes reasoning like 'land destruction is not fun, make it suck' and 'aggro is the best, keep printing awesome 2-drop creatures' and 'for God's sake, don't print any more good counterspells, we all know what happened with Mental Misstep in legacy.'

Agreed. I doubt that they will ever reprint them for Standard, but I think that Standard could handle both. Modern would probably be more troublesome though. I would really like Wasteland in Standard. It can help keep decks honest.

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed. I doubt that they will ever reprint them for Standard, but I think that Standard could handle both. Modern would probably be more troublesome though. I would really like Wasteland in Standard. It can help keep decks honest.

Wasteland in standard would make me play standard again, honestly. It's been a while since there was a prime opportunity to play a good disruptive/control game (essentially something that even resembles a tempo-based control deck similar to legacy.) Wasteland in standard would make Mana Leak a helluva lot better. If they reprinted Daze alongside Wasteland? Gold.

EDIT: Force of Will for modern would mean that control could be an actual deck. It might tip the scales absurdly in the control direction (imagine U/W tron playing their big spells with Force in hand along with a card to pitch?) At that point, it would start becoming 'legacy lite', which is obviously what Wizards is trying to avoid.