Is it possible to make legacy version of splinter twin deck to be viable in post-dig meta ?
Some sort of control-combo hybrid list, maybe something like this:
COMBO (7):
4x deceiver exarch
3x splinter twin
PROTECTION (14):
2x vendilion clique
1x spellskite
4x force of will
3x thoughtseize
2x flusterstorm
1x pyroblast
1x counterspell
CARD SELECTION, FILTERING (11):
2x snapcaster mage
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
1x preordain
BOARD CONTROL (7)
4x lightning bolt
2x jace, the mind sculptor
1x Engineered explosives
LANDS (21)
3x volcanic island
2x underground sea
1x badlands
3x island
1x mountain (or 2 copies with 10 fetches)
11x fetches (or 10 fetches with 2 mountain)
Opinions ?
controls
Worked for at least one person pre-dig ban.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2015-08-22
Cockatrice: Bosque
Sure I'll help you brainstorm.
What came to mind was something like U/R/w (AMERICA!!!), I feel like this has become my fav pet card but Imperial Recruiter is just awesome, with 11 mana (4x red) I'd sometimes actually go Recruiter --> Kiki-Jiki --> Pestermite kill in EDH if I really just wanted to end the game, so I can sort of relate to the combo even though this is Legacy.
Imperial Recruiter's pretty $ so I understand why a lot won't play, but filling the role of a creature that can block and equip & tutor is amazing. With that you can pick up a Clique for protection, a Magus of the Moon, or maybe a Mother of Runes. I was thinking something like:
+4 Aether Vial
+3-4 Enlightened Tutor (gets Splinter, Explosives, Vial or other silver bullets)
+1 Jitte
+4 Mother of Runes
+4 Imperial Recruiter
+1 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Kiki-Jiki?
...and whatever combination of the cards on your list
I like the idea of Vial for some reason, the idea of playing it early and being able to Recruiter to get a Clique then Vial it in, or just get around counters and vial in Exarch at end of their turn seems really good. I also like the idea of tutoring... just get exactly WHAT you need and being proactive, versus playing more defensive with counters and removal and doing a lot of digging with ponders trying to find the right piece... I'd rather just chill and throw down vials and/or MOM to protect my dudes, then end of their turn get exactly the cards I need to win or deal with them.
Hope that helps, definitely don't need to use all or any of the ideas but that's one way of approaching the combo. It's difficult 'cause obviously Painter already exists and does much the same thing, so determining what this necessarily provides that's better than what they're doing is kind of sketchy, but who knows maybe its got some potential.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Recruiter is 7 tix on MTGO so it's possible if that's where you play.
I have a few ideas for this deck, mostly speeding it up since we lost dig through time.
Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (10)
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (5)
4 Ponder
1 Preordain (Cut lands, add this? Probe?)
Instant (16)
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast (could be spell pierce/daze/etc)
1 Spell Pierce (flusterstorm? Daze)
Enchantment (4)
4 Splinter Twin
Artifacts (3)
3 Chrome Mox
Land (20)
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient tomb
1 City of traitors
60 Cards
SB:
3 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Trinisphere
1 Vandalblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
This build is trying to take advantage of ancient tomb since it allows for a quicker win since our combo pieces cost a bunch. The Bolt/Snapcaster plan might be harder to pull off in this format than in modern but I left it in since it gives us the backup plan against the disruptive decks. I wanted to try Chrome mox over the more traditional combo enabler lotus petal again to reinforce a fast kill but also allow us to plan a normal game with jace and snapcaster. Speaking of jace, this deck uses jace as it alt win con since we have so much ramp we needed a good pay off card and jace is one, if not, THE best. Sideboard is mostly thrown together but something cool is against storm we can turn 1 Trinisphere and really get em, and turn 1 blood moon just knocks out decks. Another benefit of Chome Mox.
Team NickErb - Howl At The Moon
Hey! I don't know if anyone saw this, but there is a tournament report by Max Ansbro (the one who Top8ed the Legacy Champs in the link posted above). you can find that here.
I will also quote the post I made there, as it fits more this discussion rather than the report itself:
Cheers!
Last edited by tarmogoat; 10-20-2015 at 02:55 AM.
Hey, link you posted doesn't work well, could you post it again, please?
controls
Hey guys! I've been playing the deck lately here in Japan! I love it! It's so much more fun than in modern and it's positioned in a decent place in the meta imo! It does really well against most control and combo decks! I've played 10 tournament matches with it and won 9/10 (winning against reanimator, storm, miracles, bug delver, death and taxes, painter, BW smallpox, high tide, and losing only to affinity with horrible misplays where the deck, if played well could have easily won) Here's my list:
Jeskai Twin
CMC1: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
1x Spell Snare
1x Flusterstorm
CMC2: 5
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Counterspell
CMC3: 9
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Intuition
CMC4: 7
4x Splinter Twin
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
CMC5: 4
4x Force of Will
Lands: 20
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Any other blue fetch
4x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Mountain
2x Ancient tomb
Sideboard:
2x Fluststorm
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
2x Misdirection (I don't really like it tho, and I want to swap it out for something different)
1x Arcane Laboratory
2x Shattering Spree (a good way to deal with Chalice on 1!)
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x From the Ashes (this card is great against bug/4 color delver etc, essentially a 1 sided armageddon)
The strengths of the deck include:
- The opponent not being able to guess what you're playing just by a few turns (is it grixis control? UR delver? omnishow?).
- The opponent not having a ton of sideboard cards against the combo itself, yes there are some that really can hurt, but twin specific sideboard cards don't exist in this format
- Most things can be played at instant speed. Clique, exarch, snap etc, it's great to be able to clique the opponent the end of your 3rd turn, have them FOW or pyroblast the clique or whatever, then drop a jace. A lot of matches I won were just from dropping jace and +0 a few times to get enough advantage to beat down or combo off.
- It plays a good midrange game, and I felt it was way easier to keep pestermite alive than it is in modern (no kolghans command, not nearly as many lightning bolts, it flies etc).
- Lots of basics make it wasteland resistant
- Once opponents know it's coming, they tend to save stp for the combo pieces and then let you beat freely with clique. This applies to discard, too. I had too many opponents turn 1 thoughtseize me and instead of taking something like brainstorm (which would have really hurt), they take a splinter twin instead when I have a 2 land hand and no exarch/pestermite.
Weaknesses -
- Really weak to decay. Yes there's misdirections in the sideboard, and clique to help get them away, but the uncounterable decay makes comboing off rough.
- Weak to other "meta" decks, like MUD, 4 color loam.
- Not quite fast enough to beat rug delver or 4 color delver/pyro pre-side.
- No good way to deal with a resolved counterbalance (pyroblast is pretty much it)
Anyways, the deck is legit, people I've played against have said that it's really cool, and seems pretty strong. Many games were won just by beating down with a clique and/or snapcaster/pestermite. Because of the versatility, it can be played in a bunch of different ways, making it really fun! Some of the lists were 3 color but canonist seems unnecessary to me (i like arcane laboratory better), and wear/tear is really the only thing that i really miss, because I don't have a good way to deal with counterbalance, choke, etc. The 2 color version is actually really consistent and losing wear/tear might be worth it to be able to slam more basics and have less of a chance of getting wastelanded or mana screwed. Any thoughts, suggestions?
I played the Jeskai version with white cards SB and it felt awesome. Ethersworn Canonist is so much better than Arcane Laboratory, as not only she can beat to the face while stopping the storm count but also she comes down 1 turn earlier, which is huge. Wear // Tear is just awesome and so much faster/efficient than the UR best options which are Chain of Vapor/Engineered Explosives and you can even slam Rest in Peace to shut down graveyard strategies.
Ok, guys, i have few questions:
- Is it really necessary to play 4 copies of splinter twin? With lots of brainstorm and ponders (even maybe preordain) i think 3 should be enough? I don't think we have opportunity to play combo on turn 4 every game if we take the facts that we are playing in format with stifles, wastelands, dazes, spell pierces... Every copy of twin above 1 sitting in your hand is too much and represent a dead card.
- Also, is 6 tappers maybe too much? 4-5 would be exact number in my opinion. They can steal time, but they are weak on it's own anyway
- Abrupt decay is problem, so, is it smart to splash black for thoughtseize/iok to fight decays turns before comboing out?
controls
Every copy in your hand above 1 can always be used to bait counters.
Last edited by Echelon; 11-02-2015 at 03:39 AM.
Yeah, I can see that. I might give the Jeskai version a try, then. Thanks for the opinions/advice!
wizard - in this sort of deck, they're really good. They tap guys, exarch can block well, and pestermite can swing for 2 in the air, which is nothing to laugh about. Protecting yourself from dying quickly is one of the ways that the deck is really good. Being able to protect a jace can also be really important. I like having a high amount of these, as they are great for a beatdown plan, to stabalize, to block etc. 4 twin is generally good pre-board. It's really easy to side out depending on the deck you're playing against. The beatdown plan/jace plan is still good so 4 twin isn't totally necessary, and I tend to side out one copy if I'm playing against a deck with very little disruption to my personal combo. I've also had times where I've thrown the twin on a snapcaster just to flashback a new spell every turn and ended up winning that way.
Also as for splashing black, that's what modern twin does. Not a terrible idea, but cliques and misdirections are your best bet against those types of decks.
- It is not necessary, but the value it can provide attached to snapcasters and even v cliques is incredible. Brainstorm + Fetch/Ponder is a great way of shuffling undesired twins in hand. Also, against linear decks like elves, big red, MUD (if you disrupted lodestone) and storm, you just jam the combo on T4 and they just look at you do it.
- 6 tappers is too much if you play less than 4 twins. Pestermite is awesome at beating down and exarch does a good job at protecting jace, which is the control wincon.
- Misdirection/Divert, and V clique is the way to deal with that, as brainstorm is the way to deal with discard. I don't believe you would improve your MUs by splashing black instead of white, I believe in this deck it would do the opposite, except for elves and D&T but Sulfur Elemental, Izzet Staticaster and Pyroclasm already do a great job against them.
In my opinion this deck is way more powerful in legacy than in modern and I am so glad I tried it, it is really fun and can be really surprising how it actually works. The only problem it has I'd say are decks that put pressure fast and play Daze, but not like they are impossible, if you draw decent cards you can fight them in a fair way.
Ok, guys, i believe you :D
Btw., twin doesn't work on clique because of legend rule. I mean, it can work if you sac original clique, but that's bad.
controls
Hey there everyone, I've been testing the following version on MTGO and have been having decent success. I think this deck is pretty decently positioned right now because of how easily you can just win on the spot with a Blood Moon.
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
2x Blood Moon
3x Splinter Twin
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Fire // Ice
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
4x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain
5x Island
2x Flusterstorm
1x Tundra
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Sulfur Elemental
3x Meddling Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Wear // Tear
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Engineered Explosives
Blood Moon has been treating me pretty well lately. The sideboard needs some work for sure, and I think this is a good starting point. I like the Meddling Mages simply because having permanent-based hate combined with countermagic gives you a much stronger combo/control package. The card I'm really missing is Misdirection. I'd love to have 1-2 with all the Shardless BUG running around, but Blood Moon works against them too. I just don't want to shell out a cool benny frank apiece for them on MTGO. I really want to include Vendilion Clique, but it's a bit of a nonbo with the Ancient Tomb. I have been trying to squeeze some Gitaxian Probes in there as well, but can't find the spot right now. Maybe -1 Daze and -1 Fire // Ice or -1 Pyroblast. What do you guys think? The deck has a lot of game, and the win on the spot potential is very high. What do you guys think?
It actually works like this:
- You control a twinned clique
- You activate clique's ability to create a token copying itself
- The copy enters the battlefield
- Its ability triggers, but it's not placed onto the stack until...
- ... SBA are checked and the legend rule applies (you choose to sac the token)
- The ability is placed on the stack
- Valuetown
@One with nothing: Blood Moon is nice, but I think I'd also be bring Meddling Mage in most MUs where I'd bring Moon, and that's a nombo with no basic Plains (which I wouldn't play at all). I don't think the deck needs to go all in (like it used to be in modern) or tempo (like is now in modern), but rather a control deck with a combo finish and a value package potential (twinning snaps/cliques). EE mainboard is plain Awesome, and will provide many G1 wins out of nowhere with the digging power the deck has. I've played against shardless bug 10 matches and won 7, including wins when my opponent resolved up to 3 Ancestral Visions, that is just HUGE. Jace > Blood Moon in that MU. This was post DTT ban. I don't believe I am afraid of BUG but more afraid of Tempo (UR/RUG/Grixis/Jeskai Delvers), MUD and prison decks.
Thanks for the tips! Like I said, the side is really weak, as I threw this all together yestserday and have only tested about 10 matches thusfar. Are there any raw card advantage cards you feel would be a good fit? Also, how do you feel about the inclusion of Ancient Tomb? I like it because it lets you accelerate into a powerful card and doesn't usually impact your mana in a negative way at all. Do you think any other utility lands might be useful here? My short list includes:
Desolate Lighthouse
Riptide Laboratory
Karakas
Academy Ruins (for EE of course)
I wouldn't know, the only way of getting a proper answer is through thorough and extensive testing.
I will quote the guy that played Jeskai Twin and leave a link to the original post in the 'Tournament Reports' forum:
Link: Twin Report
Also the video: Twin vs Miracles
Video starts at ~21min and gameplay at ~30min.
I PMd Max and asked him to swing by this thread to give his opininon/feedback and help develop the deck, hopefully he will show up and give some insight.
@tarmogoat
Oh, i really didn't saw that, thanx. It's even better then
controls
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)