W/b Token Mania!

[bruizar]

It sounds like Tower of the Magistrate would have given you the edge in a couple of these matches

[wert]

I had played 20 rounds or so of this deck based on Hanni's earlier list without Diabolic Intent. I mirrored Freggle's experiences with the Jitte, once the opponent lands an early Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow, it is tough getting back into the game. When they have Mother of Runes as well, it is not funny. Maybe some mana ramp lands like Ancient Tomb would be good?

I have some trouble with Burn too, all in all kill me too fast. In some games, when I have a chance, I got blanked with Volcanic Fallout.

For me, the MVP is often Hour of Reckoning. It is for winning games thou. It can't be a reset to save yourself.

I don't think Shrine of Loyal Legions should be played at all, considering the investment and the risk of it being destroyed. The mana could be better spend on simply on another token spell. I think Elspeth Tirel is not the best choice too, considering the other Elspeth can pump out tokens better and faster.

[bruizar]

If Jitte and Swords are really such a big problem, I'd also consider Manriki Gusari.

[jedi_gof]

Attrition for SB perhaps? Against maverick and the like you just shoot their entire team?

Edit: Also aura shards for affinity/enchantress/equipment heavy decks etc?

[Mr. Safety]

@Hanni: I think this deck is great! Legacy is becoming more and more diverse, and that is indeed a good thing. If someone were inclined to build w/b up until now, their only real choice would be Deadguy Ale. This is so much better than deadguy ale, IMHO. Bitterblossom is one of my favorite cards of all time, possibly #1 on my list. Sorin working with Bitterblossom is just boss, 100%.

When I first got into legacy I played Scepter-Chant with Bitterblossom. I sat on BB tokens while locking the game up. At the time, the only cards I had to worry about were Krosan Grip and Counterbalance. Both of those are seeing less and less play now. I'm not suggesting Scepter...I'm just saying that you have picked a great time to be playing Bitterblossom.

No real suggestions...I think your posts have already summed up that you are heading in a very promising direction. Good luck!

[MSC]

Wow, I must try this Deck!


As an idea: What about Null Rod or Stony Silence in the Board. It fights Equipments like a boss...

[Hanni]

There have been a lot of posts that I haven't addressed yet, so I'll try to do my best. But first, I want to talk about some of my playtesting experience yesterday.

Mirror Entity + Gaea's Cradle was rarely worth it. Neither card on its own was bad, but they weren't amazing either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to cut the Cradle for another Plains and the Mirror Entity for an open spot.

I'm not sure if Hour of Reckoning is worth it anymore. It was fantastic in my original build, when I ran 3, had no self-sacrificing effects, and ran more token spells. In that build, I was able to use it aggressively. Clearing the board for a turn and then resuming the beatdown was great. In the new build, I've not once wanted to Intent for it.

I tried a single Dark Triumph. I used it in several games to win, athough I'm not sure if it was win-more or not. It did feel really good swinging with 5 tokens for 15, but Intent + Triumph requires 2 sacs, so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

I need more Vindicates. The more I test, the more I keep running into random problems. Like triple Ghostly Prison out of White Stax. Jitte, Grove of the Burnwillow's, Tabernacle, Ruins + EE... there's quite a few random problems out there that Vindicates can solve. Vindicate is never a dead spell, and I think the maindeck needs more than one copy.

I've been pleased with Doomed Traveler so far. Most of the time, he's a more efficient and more useful token spell than Gather the Townsfolk.

I think I need to stay away from silver bullets and focus on streamlined consistency. Intent has been great for consistency, although I don't like seeing them in multiples. For now, I still think 4 is the right number.

For the sideboard, I definitely need Serenity and Humility. I'm thinking 2 copies of each. I'm also considering going to 4 Duress, which deal with a Plethora of issues, from Burn to Combo to you name it. I'm not sure yet if I should run Pithing Needle (for Deed). Graveyard hate for Dredge and Reanimator is a good idea. Not sure if I still want the Leylines, but I'd hate to see them go after how many games against Burn that I won with them, but I think I need the room... I can't really run Duress and Leyline at the same time.

Overall, I am very pleased with this deck, and I do realize its in its infant stage, so I will continue to need to playtest, try new things, and evolve the deck. I'm going to refrain from posting lists for a while until I'm positive that I've settled on something.

---

Tower of Magistrate seems a little narrow. Could be a great sideboard option, but for now I think I'd rather rely on Vindicate to take care of equipment. Pithing Needle also seems like a good answer to Jitte that has a lot more applications than just handling equipment. I will still try it at some point in testing though.

I'd much rather run Vindicate than Mangara.

Humility main could be really good, and I may playtest that soon.

I'm still not sold on Zealous Persecution.

Raise the Alarm is instant speed, so I like it better. Against unsuspecting opponent's, I've used it to kill Dark Confidant's and Grim Lavamancer's and things like that. It also let's me hold up mana for Swords to Plowshares in case I need to cast that instead. The 5 or less life thing on Townsfolk has only occurred a few times in many games of testing, and was relevant in even less.

I know there arfe a ton of good utility lands like Karakas, but the most valuable thing that I've found out in playtesting is that this deck loves basic lands. I don't want to be getting setback from opposing Wastelands. My best spells cost 3 and 4 mana, and I run quite a few of them.

I've been satisfed with 2 Sorin with the 4 Intent, because I tutor for him frequently, I see him more consistently than in previous versions without Intent, and I reduce inconsistency isses of drawing multiples. I don't mind multiples, but it still takes 3 turns to make 2 Emblems and blow the first one up. If he gets countered or destroyed, it's not the end of the world. I mean, he's definitely the best card in the deck, but the deck is not dependant on him. Also, I can either Intent for the second one later, or grab an Elspeth.

Timely Reinforcements is not a good spell for this deck. 3 mana for 6 life is good in the Burn matchup, and that's about it. Rarely will my opponent have more creatures than I have in play. I'm already heavy at the 3cc spot, and both Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession are better than Reinforcements.

Freggle, sorry about your finish. I wish you luck in your next event with Tokens.

Attrition seems decent, although I questions its strength compared to cards like Humility and Hour of Reckoning.

Null Rod and Stony Silence both sound like good sideboard options.

Thank you for the feedback guys. I'm going to continue working on this and improving it. I really enjoy playing this deck. For those of you who have also played a few games with the deck, what were your initial impressions?

[Freggle]

I think the best answer to an early Umezawa's Jitte is to pack more Jitte's of our own.

They are amazing when unanswered, and a great two drop way to stop them.

I would not just pass over Soul Warden. She single handedly kept me in many games. I'm certainly not trying to claim that she is an auto include, but she is a human 1 drop that is excellent with all the tokens. ...amazing with Bitterblossom, and a fatal hour Gather the Townsfolk which I used against the BW stoneblade close loss (gaining 10 per Townsfolk)

It should be stated that they also trigger on opponents creatures since it wasn't obvious to many of my opponents. This helps combat aggro, and keeps you in the game against burn (lessens Hellspark, ...and you will win under Pyrostatic Pillar)

Humans are important because we could run Champion of the Parish as another 1 drop.

With Doomed Traveler, Soul sisters, Raise the Alarm they may be quite good. I know this is slightly against the Hour of Reckoning plan, but it could also be a good way to shore up the early game.

Also a on on Raise the Alarm vs. Gather the Townsfolk. Townsfolk Fatal hour to me by far trumps Alarms instant speed. If you want instant speed you should pay the extra mana for Midnight Haunting as it is a far better card. To me they are not even close, and Raise the Alarm does not have a home in this deck outside of a humans version. We want to dominate the skies and not die on the ground.

Tower would not have done much outside of cloud my mana coloration, and stop 1 token per turn getting killed. Not that impressive.

Attrition and [carsd]Aura Shards[/cards] would weaken the manabase to the point where the deck becomes very vulnerable to stifle / wasteland which I saw many of. You want to drop plainswalkers regulrarly so I don't think it is worth it.

On Null Rod and Stony Silence: Running Stoneforge and Jittes, and Batterskull would be better. It works like checks and balances against other stoneblade decks, and wins against decks that don't have a stoneblade package.

Equipping Batterskull on a flying spirit worked all day, when many had to bounce Skull and could not keep up.

I do not understand the lust for Ajani. If you wanted anthem effects you would run Intangible Virtue which is permanent, and costs less.

Elspeth, Tierl's Nuke (ultimate) is better than Elspeth, Kight Earrant in here (I know this is an about face on my comments earlier, but it is true) Otherwise we are completely dead against a top decked Natural Order, and lots of other stuff.

Lastly, I like the fact that Sorin can steal an Emrakrul :)

Later

[Hanni]

Hour of Reckoning and Humility can both deal with Progenitus, as well as Emrakul. I'm favoring Humility right now because it can deal with a multitude of problems, like Nic Fit, other decks with EtB or utility effects, and topdecked threats. When everything is shrunk to a vanilla 1/1, I own the red zone.

Regarding Ajani. I can see times were he would be really good. The thing is, and anyone who's played the deck knows, tokens come and go. The deck is constantly losing tokens and then making new ones. Ajani only affects the ones currently in play. His first and third abilities are awful. At 4 mana, I would much rather drop Sorin or Elspeth. Residual token makers are what make this deck so resilient. A lone Elspeth may seem underpowered, but stacked with Sorin, Bitterblossom, or the other token makers, the effect is very noticeable. I'm not saing Ajani is a bad card though, and may have a place in the deck. I will get around to playtesting it again, and then share my thoughts on the matter.

[catmint]

I've been following this thread with great interest and like how your list developed Hanni. I was thinking about B/W since sorin, but had no idea hour of reckoning exists.

Some comments / questions:

Diabolic intent is sick. However I think playing 4 might be 1 too many and you cannot be too optimistic running only silverbullet hate in the SB. Since this is not vintage you have to be aware of the mana:

-> play token (turn 2 if you do not have doomed traveler -> btw: having t2 intent is the only justification why you can run sucha "low power" spell imo)
-> play intent turn 2-3
-> play hate turn 3-4

Against a combo/tempo deck this might be too slow and against decks which have discard or counters I think it is a better plan to develop your board. Therefore I would only run 2-3 intents and more of the good stuff which you want to draw into.

2 Vindicate, 2 "wrath" sounds very good to me.
3 Sorin, 2 Elspeth

Also I would add 1 darkblast. It's very good against many decks and has a synergy with lingering soul and cabal therapy

Do you think it is worth having 1 wasteland to get rid of manlands, riptides, tabernacles?

how about 1-2 liliana? it s something against combo, but also a bomb versus creature decks. Plus we have a lot of stuff we dont mind discarding.

Is mirror entity worth it? I feel it will always eat the removal which the opponent does not want to use for tokens? Having it as a tutor target if the opponent does not have removal seems like a win more or a worse choice than a planeswalker.

is 4 spectral possession good? I mean the card is great for the deck, but on paper it feels like its often a turn 5+ card, where you want to cast other stuff. Maybe go down to 2? To me it looks there are still more than enough token makers left.

what about 1-2 chrome mox for some random accel. Seems like a lot of the cards are not needed in multiples, but beeing a turn faster can be really good.

concerning the SB here my first brainstorm:

1 Diabolic Intent - I think having the 4th intent is good to find hate if not played maindeck
3 Gy hate: i.e: 2 surgical, 1 grafdiggers cage -> has to come down fast!
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
1 Mindbreak trap
1 Pithing Needle (Deed)
1 Null Rod
1 circle of protection red (progenitus, burn)
1 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Jitte

[Greenpoe]

Decrease Spectral Procession, increase Wasteland and perhaps drop a basic swamp (you only need one anyway). Just remember to think of Wasteland as a free LD-spell that can force the enemy to manascrew themselves by fetching basics and helps with casting the majority of the deck.

[Freggle]

Can people please specify Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Elspeth Tirel. Reading some of these I'm not sure. I assume Knight Errant when it's not specified, but I'd rather not assume.

The deck can easily support 4 Wasteland when Spectral Procession is not used. I purposely ran Midnight Haunting over Spectral Procession because I wanted to fetch basics and I was running Vault of the Archangel.

Having built many enchantress variants I would warn everyone against silver bullet strategies. To simply state it you will loose more because you are trying to win less.

Just try and find more resilient ways to win then answer common decks win cons.

A fleet of fliers alone is a lot for many decks to handle.

Diabolic Intent seems weak unless you are running a two card combo like Vampire Hexmage / Dark Depths in which case it could be very strong.

I'm beginning to question more and more myself why running Stoneforge Mystic is being questioned. White has very little in true card advantage, and Stoneforge is one of them.

The tutoring is VERY relevant to our protection (Jitte wars) and also leaves you a body.
We could run Sword of War and Peace in the main or board vs. burn, and that should handle that match, and it is very aggressive.

I don't see why it's bad outside of lack of innovation. When I would Stonforge for the Jitte no one wasted removal on Stoneforge because I would get Jitte in play for the same mana so Stoneforge got in for a couple points of damage many times, and sometimes even carried the Jitte for me.

Or later in the match where I would have a Battersull top deck, or Stoneforge Mystic into a Batterskull I had a Stoneforge active to forge it in right away. I think it's a good plan. Am I missing something?

3-4 Stoneforge Mystic
2-3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Freggle, sorry about your finish. I wish you luck in your next event with Tokens.

Thank you. I'm trying to become a better player and attend more events. I've played magic for years just not competitively until the last year or so.

The thing is, and anyone who's played the deck knows, tokens come and go. The deck is constantly losing tokens and then making new ones.

If you run the soul sisters you can many times just take the hits and not loose the tokens as you are gaining a fair amount of life. ...unless you want to trigger Doomed Traveler to get another flier, and some more life when the spirit comes into play :)

[Hanni]

Going down to 3 Intent may ultimately be the right call, but I'm going to keep testing with 4 for now.

Also, Doomed Traveler is actually a good spell. Unless he gets hit by an exile effect, he's worth two 1/1's for 1 mana, with the replacement having flying. I think he does more for the deck than Townsfolk, at any rate.

I agree with reducing the toolbox down to a minimum.

My mind keeps changing back and forth on Cradle, but I don't think Mirror Entity is worth it. Dark Triumph is typically easier to use if I'm going for a combo kill, and I'm not even sure if that's worth it.

1 Wasteland maindeck could be useful. I haven't tried it. Vindicate does answer lands too, though.

Liliana could be alright, but I'm not sure if the deck needs it. Typically, one of the strengths of using tokens is to not need continous heavyduty removal like Liliana. I can see corner case scenarious with her being excellent, like against Emrakul and Prog... but I think I would much rather have Humility for that role.

4 Spectral Procession is amazing. I frequently cast it for 3 mana, and ocasionally for 4, but never more than that. 3 mana for three 1/1 flying tokens is about as good as it gets for efficiency, and is only second in total power to Lingering Souls' 4 tokens for 5 mana.

Haven't tried Chrome Mox yet so I can't really comment.

[Anusien]

Moat seems significantly better than Humility. It doesn't deal with Emrakul, but it's significantly better against most decks.

Sounds like instead of Vindicate you just want a set of Wasteland.

No Windbrisk Heights?

2 Sorin 2 Elspeth can't possibly be right. Not only do you want Sorin more, but you can get rid of multiples by just ticking them down; Elspeth only goes up.

Raise the Alarm and Doomed Traveler are so unimpressive because of how little they accomplish. I would probably run Thoughtseize, a real guy, some Moats. Most of the token producers are awesome because they fly. If you cast Raise the Alarm and they have even a Nimble Mongoose (much less a Goyf or a Batterskull), you are going to feel silly.

4 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scrubland
5 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Diabolic Intent

3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Midnight Haunting

4 Path to Exile
3 Moat

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

(I think you need to replace Diabolic Intent with something, but I don't know what.)

I think you might be able to go a step forward and run it with Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb and gain some big benefits. Then you can run more Moats, more Planeswalkers and such.

[Hanni]

I think Humility is stronger than Moat because you are not always concerned with creatures attacking you. Qasali blows up Moat, Goblin Sharpshooter rapes the board of all tokens, Eternal Witness gets that Deed back, Grim Lavamancer still shocks, Dark Confidant still draws cards, SFM still fetches a Jitte to put on Delver/Clique, etc.

Without abilities, the opponent should almost never be able to drop more guys than you make tokens. You should win that battle every single time, with the only exception I can think of being Zombie tokens coming out of Dredge... but even then, if they can't get Ichorid's or Narcomoeba's in play, they aren't making Zombies.

I think there are two ways to approach the deck right now; the SFM build and the Diabolic Intent build. I intend to try both.

Also, in testing, my biggest problems were from artifacts/enchantments, not lands. Several lands were problematic, but they weren't as common and not as severe. I'm not sure how Wasteland is a replacement for Vindicate, although Wasteland itself may be a good idea to run.

With Intent, I prefer the 2/2 Planeswalker split. Clearly, Sorin is better, but Superfriends mod gets rediculous very quickly. Intent gives me 6 virtual Sorins.

Also, I like Alarm and Traveler for curve reasons. Having some ground bounds isn't a big deal, since those are the ones I use for chump blocks, Therapy sacs, etc. Elspeth and Sorin make groundbounds too, so its been fine. My fliers clock in the air while my groundbounds hold defense, until I have enough total tokens to alpha strike. 9 3cc token makers with 4 Bitterblossom as your 2cc looks a bit slow, and I would definitely suggest some accel.

The idea of adding Thoughtseize is very interesting. I was thinking about trying it a few times, but never got around to it yet.

[Anusien]

Humility still allows them to attack. With a 5/5 no less. If all your creatures but like 4 slots can attack through a Moat, it's superior (and does a much better job protecting your planeswalkers).

Basically the only things that can do anything relevant through Moat are Qasali Pridemage, Delver of Secrets and Vendilion Clique.

[Zlatzman]

On the humility/moat-debate:

I personally played both cards in my local legacy tournament last week. Humility was the strongest card by far. Moat didn't really stop much, except for some Tarmogoyfs. Humility however stopped Qasali Pridemage, Emrakul and Terastadon among others.

This could be due to an unnaturally high number of Show and Tell / Sneak Attack decks in my metagame of course.

[bruizar]

On the humility/moat-debate:

I personally played both cards in my local legacy tournament last week. Humility was the strongest card by far. Moat didn't really stop much, except for some Tarmogoyfs. Humility however stopped Qasali Pridemage, Emrakul and Terastadon among others.

This could be due to an unnaturally high number of Show and Tell / Sneak Attack decks in my metagame of course.

@Anusien: Windbrisk Heights is awesome. Putting Humility under a Windbrisk Heights and flipping it when blockers are declared is just evil. I'd personally go for the Humility route over the moat route. Also, just putting a planeswalker into play is very nice.

Humility allows you to make up for the fact that you run shitty creatures. Make their green sun zenith's, cliques, delvers, merfolks, elves and goblins as shitty and zerg them with tokens. For each spectral procession you cast, they have to cast 3 dudes. It basically invalidates their entire deck if they planned on winning through the combat step and it protects itself far better than moat. You want to get in an attrition war with Humility. Moat on the other hand, still gets trumped by a lot of strategies, mainly GSZ for Qasali and Delver. The only thing you have to look out for is equipment, which I suggest you run yourself (jitte).

[Freggle]

I have considered Windbrisk Heights however the deck does not run enough permanents to warrant it.

If you run Humility which I think is pretty okay. You should also run Academy Rector with Cabal Therapy

Perhaps not the full set of rectors, but 2-3 would help drop another Humility if it gets destroyed.

I have no idea if a Academy Rector under Humility goes to the graveyard from play can still get enchantments. I think it does because once it leaves the battlefield it becomes a spell in the graveyard, and then triggers.

Get another Bitterblossom? Double up the Humility? make a toolbox? who knows?

I would still play with 3 Stoneforge Mystic as you can drop it T2 to get a Jitte then T4 drop Humility. If unfettered you will dominate the board in no time.

I would still run Elspeth Tirel Elspeth's ultimate is very powerful, and can be activated the turn after she drops.

It's like a favorable, farther reaching, reusable Nevinyrral's Disk that is harder to remove, makes creatures, and give you life. You just pay the 5th mana on the same turn you cast it.

It can also nuke a Bitterblossom that is about to kill you.

Edit: Wait a minute BB would never kill you with all that life gain.

It became fairly obvious to me that Sorin is this decks Knight-Errant, and Tirel is this decks very synergistic catch all.

[vanele]

Have you guys thought about running Promise of Bunrei in that spectral possession slot? It would open you up a little more to stifle I suppose, but when it pops you do get quite the bang for the buck.

Also as a sideboard card, I believe that Martyr's Cause would be excellent. It basically seals the burn match up if it lands and while I don't have the best idea on how many tokens you end up using for chumps, but it would do good work in making your dudes go the extra mile.