If Humility comes down before SFM, they can't fetch their 1-of Batterskull. Even if so, the singleton Batterskull is hardly a reason to discredit Humility.Humility still allows them to attack. With a 5/5 no less. If all your creatures but like 4 slots can attack through a Moat, it's superior (and does a much better job protecting your planeswalkers).
Basically the only things that can do anything relevant through Moat are Qasali Pridemage, Delver of Secrets and Vendilion Clique.
There are far more relevant creatures in the format besides the three you listed, that Humility can answer. Shrinking all creatures to 1/1 vanilla's is so synergistic with this decks gameplan. I'm not saying Moat is bad, but I'd sooner run a 1/1 split before running 3 Moat's.
Also, it's very plausible to use Cabal Therapy to rip Batterskull out of the opponent's hand either before it enters play, or after it gets bounced back later.
Windbrisk Heights is an interesting find. Not sure how much I like the idea of an ETB-tapped nonbasic, but it's pretty easy to trigger and could help cheat on mana. I'm not sure the deck really needs the extra accel though, since it's not running anything more expensive than 4cc, and Windbrisk initially slows down mana production, arguably during a more crucial time in the game.
That's an interesting idea. I don't think it belongs in the same deck with Diabolic Intent, but it could be feasible in a different type of build that runs more than just Humility and Bitterblossom as useful enchantments.If you run Humility which I think is pretty okay. You should also run Academy Rector with Cabal Therapy
Perhaps not the full set of rectors, but 2-3 would help drop another Humility if it gets destroyed.
I will be testing with both the Diabolic Intent and SFM builds. The SFM build may end up being better, but I won't know till I actually test it.I would still play with 3 Stoneforge Mystic as you can drop it T2 to get a Jitte then T4 drop Humility. If unfettered you will dominate the board in no time.
I can see fitting her back into the lists with Diabolic Intent. I cut her before I switched to Intent, so having her as a singleton again would be alot more relevant than in the builds without Intent.I would still run Elspeth Tirel Elspeth's ultimate is very powerful, and can be activated the turn after she drops.
Tokens don't go to the graveyard when they die (I think, I may be wrong), so Promise of Bunrei would only have Doomed Traveler to trigger it. If it works with tokens dying, I would definitely run it, but I don't think it does. (Can anyone clarify that?)Have you guys thought about running Promise of Bunrei in that spectral possession slot? It would open you up a little more to stifle I suppose, but when it pops you do get quite the bang for the buck.
I'd rather sideboard Aegis of Honor for the burn matchup, although Leyline of Sanctity is still the better overall answer.Also as a sideboard card, I believe that Martyr's Cause would be excellent. It basically seals the burn match up if it lands and while I don't have the best idea on how many tokens you end up using for chumps, but it would do good work in making your dudes go the extra mile.
It's always been my understanding that tokens go to the graveyard and then cease to exist as a SBE. So if something says "whenever a creature dies, -do something-" a token creature is just as much a trigger as any other creature. Unless something changed like with m10 or whatever, AFAIK Promise of Bunrei should work with token creatures.
Very interesting, thank you for that. I dismissed Bunrei in the beginning of my development because I didn't think tokens dying would trigger.
However, I'm still not sure that I would run Bunrei over Procession. Bunrei makes four tokens, but they don't have flying. It also requires a token dies first, so it's not as immediate as Procession in most cases, and if I don't sac a token with Therapy before passing the turn, it can get destroyed. Not really worried about the getting destroyed issue, but the non-flying of the tokens is a dealbreaker for me.
I still like Bunrei, don't get me wrong. At the moment though, I feel both Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession are the best 3cc token spells this deck has access to, and I don't want to overload my curve with too many 3cc spells. I will, however, keep Bunrei in mind. Everytime I draw an Alarm or Procession, I will compare it to Bunrei given my current gamestate, and try to evaluate it that way.
I know I said I was going to refrain from posting lists for a while, but due to alot of the feedback in this thread, I've made some modifications to my Diabolic Intent build that have been very promising...
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Scrubland
6 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [ISD] Doomed Traveler
// Spells
4 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [MR] Raise the Alarm
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AP] Vindicate
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
I cut down on the Intents, went back to the heavy Planeswalker build, and got rid of the toolbox. I still need to playtest with several cards that I said I would playtest with, and I'll get around to it eventually. This sort of deck is somewhat new territory for me, and it's going to take some time to try everything.
I think so too.Originally Posted by TsumiBand
I had been using that card, but sometimes you want the tokens now and not depend on the opponent to do you a favour.
@Freggle
If you are still trying the humans token route, Avacyn's Collar, Thraben Doomsayer maybe?
Personally, I am trying out Undying Evil with Smallpox, but I fear the more I tinker with it, the more it looks like something else, Deadguy Ale, or some Pox build.
Oh, and for my SFM build that I will test, take the list I just posted, with these changes:
-4 Doom Traveler
-2 Diabolic Intent
+4 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice
I'd also run this sideboard:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 4 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
I have a feeling that the deck still curves out slightly less stable that I want.
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top should solve that little problem. -2 Sorin, +2 Top from Hanni's latest list should do the trick (and maaaybe -1 Dommed Traveler, +1 more Top).
Also, this deck is awesome.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I know, isn't it? :P It's a BLAST to play. Good times.Also, this deck is awesome.
Tokens dying hit the grave and would trigger Promise of Bunrei so you really get more bang for the buck. An opponent should be Stifling your fetches in the first place instead of sandbagging them for the enchantment. Even if they can play around the card, you still get more value with it flashing back therapies. I think the card deserves to be reprinted with the new keyword "dies."
You know what... I think I have been evaluating this deck incorrectly.
At first, I just wanted to build a token deck. However, as I keep playtesting and tuning it, I'm noticing a trend away from the mindless token strategy and closer to a Deadguy shell. I mean, 2 Wasteland 2 Vindicate?
When I started, I had Intangible Virtue and Hour of Reckoning. Now I'm running 2 Wasteland and 2 Vindicate. I have a feeling tghat the deck is going to eventually become a Deaguy deck that cuts creatures like Dark Confidant for what I feel is a stronger strategy utilizing tokens.
At this point, I think I was wrong, and you guys were right. I need to be looking at this deck as a competitive deck instead of as a casual tokens deck. Why in the world would I run Raise the Alarm instead of Stoneforge Mystic in a competitive deck, which is clearly hands down a better 2cc spell?
The beauty of SFM in here is that this deck does not need Batterskull. That means that if SFM resolves, the damage is done. Jitte and SoFI on flying tokens that are resilient to removal, even en masse, sets the stage for this being a Stoneblade deck that beats the other Stoneblade decks. Another major advantage is that the deck also has strong matchups against other major decks too.
In evaluating this deck with Deadguy, there are some subtle differences. Cabal Therapy becomes my Hymn to Tourach, for example. I also no longer need to run creatures like Mother of Runes or Dark Confidant.
After cutting the Dark Triumph and the rest of the toolbox in testing, Diabolic Intent lost a lot of value to me. The consistency it gives is still good, but this is not a combo deck, and is in fact a fairly redundant deck. I shouldn't need to pay 2 mana and sac a token to tutor for something, despite being able to do so.
I also think Anusiens suggestion for Thoughtseize has a lot of merit. 4 Wasteland, 4 Vindicate, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Thoughtseize, and 4 Cabal Therapy is pretty much a Deadguy core. Toss in 4 SFM, with the rest of the token package, and the deck looks to be of tier quality.
I'll get to work on figuring this out more on MWS when I get home tonight.
You should check out the deadguy thread. I know when lingering souls and sorin were spoiled, I saw some token heavy decks.
With every change, this becomes Deadguy more and more. Are Raise the Alarm, Spectral Procession, Diabolic Intent and Doomed Traveler better than SFM, Confidant, Hymn and equipment? I kinda doubt it.
Perhaps I'm a little to conservative for most out there, but the loss of life from BitterBlossom, fetches, and Thoughtseize to me is not good.
Especially when you consider you do not have to do it. From a player that absolutely LOVES playing discard I repeat LOVES I have to warn you it is not all it is cracked up to be. All of those spells loose a LOT of value in the late game, and many times do not do the damage they need to do in the early game. You just went and made your sleigh MU a known bad MU much worse.
Also, running so much discard requires black mana early and running Spectral Procession requires white mana t3. This means you are going to put your mana base in a very fragile territory. Playing more fetches exposing yourself to Stifle Fetching into Scrubland exposing yourself to Wasteland ...it is not worth it.
Personally, I would loose the idea of the deadguy shell (a non-tier deck) and focus on uncharted primarily white based token strategies with Stoneforge Mystic.
This will keep your mana base rock solid. Give more playable value to Spectral Procession and ultimately the deck more power.
Putting Sword of Feast and Famine on a spirit flier for ramp makes playing Elspeth Tirel look really solid.
Tirel will make more tokens per turn then Elspeth, Knight-Errant if you alternate the 1 & 2 abilities, and likely gain you more life than jumping (with Knight-Errant ...a two card "combo") Sorin tokens to keep you in games.
If you play all flying token spells, and decide not to rock Batterskull. Knight-Errant's jump ability looses a fair amount of value. ...it's still very good, but it does loose value.
But for me the kicker is Tirels Non-token nuke. That ability is unparalleled in magic. For this deck it's like a reusable Planar Cleansing and an Hour of Reckoning combined which is absurd. Just absurd.
Forget the hand. Control the board . DOMINATE the skies.
Loose Vindicate and count on stall and Elspeth Tirel
Not keeping track of the numbers here but I'd make something like this:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Confidant
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull/Sword
4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth
2 Sorin
3 Humility
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
Chrome Mox -> Helps ramp to 2 / 3 mana
Dark Confidant -> Off-sets turn 1 chrome mox
Squadron Hawk -> Off-sets turn 1 chrome mox
Bitterblossom -> Stream of tokens
Timely Reinforcements -> Offsets Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant and beats in general.
Stoneforge Mystic -> Grab a weapon
3 Planeswalkers -> More than enough, humility is your planeswalker #4-6
@ hyper
I haven't looked in the Deadguy thread in like a year. I just read through about the last 10 pages. I didn't realize the heavy token plan was being discussed there as well. However, I do think having a tghread specifically for the token plan is a good idea, so I will continue posting my ideas in here instead.
@ igri
I disagree. I don't see the merits of running Dark Confidant in here whatsoever. The format is spot removal heavy, and if whatever reason you do get to draw cards with him, the cc curve of this deck is suicidal. Dark Confidants home is in Esperblade and traditional Deadguy if you ask me.
I do agree that Diabolic Intent has lost a lot of value for me now. I do agree that SFM is a better 2cc spell than Raise the Alarm. I disagree with your position of Doomed Traveler and Spectral Procession. Doomed Traveler has been great for me for several reasons, and Procession is one of the best spells in the deck.
When I get home from work, I will make some changes to my list and playtest. Also, Fetid Heath seems interesting for casting Spectral Procession with Swamps, and it's still a good spell when cast for 2WW.
@ Freggle
With all of the playtesting I've done, I'm kinda thinking the extra discard would improve the matchups I have lost to. There are somme problems I would like to deal with efficiently, and you cannot overlook how powerful Thoughtseize + Therapy in the early game truly is.
As far as lifeloss is concerned, I'm pretty sure Jitte should cover that problem. I run plenty of tokens to get counters. Sorin makes lifelinkers, too.
I still think the white focus is the right way to go. I'm not suggesting running any BB spells like Hymn, Liliana, or Sinkhole. Also, if I go up to 4 Wasteland, I'm also going up to 24 lands, so the colorsources don't change. I'm also considering Fetid Heath, which would make Procession a lot more consistent at getting cast for WWW.
As far as Vindicate is concerned... Tirel is not a replacement. There is a lot of randomness that needs to be dealt with and Vindicate is thr best catch-all spell in the format.
Cool concept, interesting read.
Have you considered Leyline of the Meek?
^Didn't know what that card did, but thought it was something like meekstone, which reminded me of retribution of the meek. Was that card discussed here?
What are those cards? If it is Force you play through it. Plainswalkers? With our fliers we laugh at plainswalkers as most decks can not protect them. Anything else I can think of you would much rather have Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize, but I still would not run discard.
You run discard when you can capitalize off of the early disruption. At this point we can not. Making 1/1 fliers does not do it. Your almost assuredly going to mid to late game where top decking a targeted discard spell will feel pretty awful... Especially one that does 2 damage to you.
There are far better spells for those slots main. SB maybe for combo, maybe... but Ethersworn Canonist is likely better there anyhow.
Jitte is to keep a stranglehold on the board, or remove all the counters in one final blow to win.
On lifegain: Over 90% of the decks in magic still win by reducing you to 0 life. Why would you help them so much? Reduce the fetches to doge Stifle, and maintain your life. Be weary of Thoughtseize...
I am still convinced that life gain is a good advantage (one in which white excels) in Magic no matter how much anyone plays it down. Think of it this way Batterskull isn't scary because it's a 4/4. It is scary because it has lifelink and vigilance making a mockery of aggro, and most peoples win strategies.
I still think the souls sisters are good. They make man lands look dumb, reduce geist angles to manageable levels. Make a complete mockery of snap / plow. Works very well with the token plan, can gain you life with bitterblossom in multiples, make opponents Elspths, or Sorins life gain machines for you, in other words they are kind of discreetly good. ...they look terrible, but they are not. There might be something better, but I wouldn't auto discount them.
Make people try and kill you through a swarm of tokens while you gain life. Look to fly over their team, or nuke 'em with Elspth T (Mrs. T and win) Then your only truly bad MU is Combo.
Sorry for all of my typos earlier. It's difficult to type up replies on my phone.
It's not one particular thing, it's multiple things. If my opponent has the Daze/Pierce/FoW hand that prevents me from playing another until I'm almost dead from Delver beats, then sure. There's also stuff like Umezawa's Jitte out of Stoneblade, Ghostly Prison out of White Stax, Goblin Sharpshooter out of Goblins, Ad Nauseam against Storm, so on and so forth. It's not 1 specific problem, it's just the randomness of the format.What are those cards? If it is Force you play through it. Plainswalkers? With our fliers we laugh at plainswalkers as most decks can not protect them. Anything else I can think of you would much rather have Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize, but I still would not run discard.
You run discard when you can capitalize off of the early disruption. At this point we can not. Making 1/1 fliers does not do it. Your almost assuredly going to mid to late game where top decking a targeted discard spell will feel pretty awful... Especially one that does 2 damage to you.
There are far better spells for those slots main. SB maybe for combo, maybe... but Ethersworn Canonist is likely better there anyhow.
Inquisition could be split with Thoughtseize. I simply suggested Thoughtseize because it's the least conditional. A split is feasible.
I disagree that discard is only meant to be run in a tempo-oriented deck that capitalizes off of the disruption. Almost all decks in Legacy are affected by tempo in one way or another. Shredding my opponent's hand, and then dropping a SFM and Sorin is a pretty strong way to win if you ask me.
I'm not so worried about the discard being dead in the lategame, because my lategame is already incredibly strong. Tons of residual token makers with Bitterblossom and the Planeswalkers, tons of strong token effects with Procession and Souls, and now equipment with Jitte and SoFI to attach to a flier... I'm cool with topdecking what might be a dead discard spell.
The difference between Cannonist and discard is very different. Cannonist is narrow hate, where Thoughtseize is strong against most decks in the format. I'd rather run Leyline as my narrow hate of choice, because it's free, comes down turn 0, and is good against both Storm Combo and Burn.
Jitte is alot of things, and it's lifegain if I need it. Lifeloss from fetches, Bitterblossom, and Thoughtseize could hurt, sure. I'm hoping to reduce damage from aggro with my removal and tons of tokens, and now with the discard package too. If I do need the lifegain, I now have access to Jitte, and I still have Sorin, so that should be fine. The only matchups where the self-lifeloss should be relevant is against Burn/Sligh, which admittedly does hurt that matchup some. I'm still undefeated in postboard games against them though... Leyline has been a beating.Jitte is to keep a stranglehold on the board, or remove all the counters in one final blow to win.
On lifegain: Over 90% of the decks in magic still win by reducing you to 0 life. Why would you help them so much? Reduce the fetches to doge Stifle, and maintain your life. Be weary of Thoughtseize...
I am still convinced that life gain is a good advantage (one in which white excels) in Magic no matter how much anyone plays it down. Think of it this way Batterskull isn't scary because it's a 4/4. It is scary because it has lifelink and vigilance making a mockery of aggro, and most peoples win strategies.
I still think the souls sisters are good. They make man lands look dumb, reduce geist angles to manageable levels. Make a complete mockery of snap / plow. Works very well with the token plan, can gain you life with bitterblossom in multiples, make opponents Elspths, or Sorins life gain machines for you, in other words they are kind of discreetly good. ...they look terrible, but they are not. There might be something better, but I wouldn't auto discount them.
Make people try and kill you through a swarm of tokens while you gain life. Look to fly over their team, or nuke 'em with Elspth T (Mrs. T and win) Then your only truly bad MU is Combo.
I'm not against the Soul Sisters plan, I think it's viable, but it's not for me. It's not the direction I want to take my list in. You're more than welcome to develop that approach and post it in this thread, though.
---
Since I'm feeling peachy tonight... here's another decklist!
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Scrubland
6 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AP] Vindicate
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity
SB: 4 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
Hanni, your latest decklist wants its black mana sources not later than turn 1 but still wantson turn 3. It can be difficult in format full of Wasteland.
I tested similar "tokenguy" decklist with Blade Splicer as replacement for Spectral Procession.
The worst disadvantage is lack of evasion, but Jitte on 3/3 colorless First Striker beats Goyfs and Sword of X&Y-equipped dorks.
I also tested Promise of Bunrei and as expected it was too conditional to be good. Splicer felt better.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Yeah, I figured it wasn't just one card, but most of the cards listed above are under 3CMC The exceptions are:
FOW
Ad Nauseam
FOW I would never grab. You want to make people exile the blue card. On Sun. I had people exile a Jace, TM & a Geist of ST just to Force token spells... Who do you think won that one?
Ad Nauseam is not the real problem. Storm is on a very temperate mana base, so you would nab either their filter cards like Brainstorm, or if they have it the Dark Rituals.
Having Cabal Therapy run the dirty work is just fine. Personally I wouldn't even 2-2 split. IoK will not let you down.
I was once testing with a friend of mine who was running Team America with Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant. It was funny how much unnecessary damage Thoughtseize did to him, and I made sure to point it out to the point where I was likely dick-ish. He never grabbed anything over 3 CMC and some games the 2-6 life did cause him the game. He was sooo pissed, but I think he got the point. Don't believe the hype IoK is better than Thoughtseize. ...at least in Legacy.
If this is your function of discard. The IoK will decidedly be better. You would want to grab the cards they can cast.
If your set on running discard I think that is fair.
Yeah, me too, but it sucked getting them bounced in the tournament. I was the one who first dropped the idea of Sanctity in the burn thread although I am sure that this was not a new idea to anyone. It works there, but you'll be ripe to Price of Progress, Flame Rift... all the untargetables.
Thank you for that. Many times I'm adamant on something because I just want to see if I'm way off base. So I push the issue to learn. I will work on that plan, and I will post in here.
On Blade Splicer: Blade Splicer is a very good card, but it is grounded. I have considered it. It would be a lot better if we were playing blue for Wing Splicer I played a slicer Shape Anew deck in standard for Blightsteel Colossus (which was awesome because blighty is a golem ***super secret tech***) and she was bar far the best splicer. ...I suppose it comes down to the decks goals. Getting 2 creatures for 3 mana seems to be par for most token spells so the splicer is an upgrade, but the fact that she is grounded is holding her back from my lists right now. If I were to play her I'd look for bounce spells (like Kor Skyfisher) to get the most out of it.
I think the best thing to do is hammer out the pros and cons of common ground. Like the pros and cons of running Elspeth K-E vs. Elspth Tirel. Or what is the optimal token equipment package.
I'll have to think about these things and write later as for now I have run out of time. Later.
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