You make a good argument. Although... Inquisition doesn't hit Armageddon, Wildfire, Thran Dynamo, or etc against Stax decks (I have yet to win a matchup against any Stax variants). Stax isn't a DTB though, and Inquisition is likely better against the DTB (minus Batterskull), so I will try Inquisition over Thoughtseize.Yeah, I figured it wasn't just one card, but most of the cards listed above are under 3CMC The exceptions are:
FOW
Ad Nauseam
FOW I would never grab. You want to make people exile the blue card. On Sun. I had people exile a Jace, TM & a Geist of ST just to Force token spells... Who do you think won that one?
My newest list runs the same amount of colored sources as I have been running for a while now. I cut 2 business spells for 2 more lands, so now I'm at 24. Even against a field of Wasteland, this deck does not have problems hitting WW. I would rather pay 2WW for Procession than 2W for Splicer. Splicer is a good card, but three 1/1 flying tokens applies much more board presence for this deck than a vanilla 1/1 and a 3/3 first strike.Hanni, your latest decklist wants its black mana sources not later than turn 1 but still wants on turn 3. It can be difficult in format full of Wasteland.
I tested similar "tokenguy" decklist with Blade Splicer as replacement for Spectral Procession.
The worst disadvantage is lack of evasion, but Jitte on 3/3 colorless First Striker beats Goyfs and Sword of X&Y-equipped dorks.
I also tested Promise of Bunrei and as expected it was too conditional to be good. Splicer felt better.
I frequently cast Procession with my manabase on turn 3 with WWW. Even against Wasteland, I'm up to 24 lands now with 4 Wasteland of my own, so that gameplan goes two ways, and I'm likely running more basics and more lands than they are.
Also, dropping a Scrubland on turn 1 is not the end of the world.
EDIT: Also, this deck curves very well for the entire early game and majority of the midgame, so if I'm at a point where I can't cast Procession on turn 3, the chances are pretty good that I have other relevant spells to play on turn 3.
So I thought about it.
On Equipment:
1. Umezawa's Jitte
Jitte s that good. The fact that it runs double duty in fighting opponents Jitte's and being excellent at everything when equipped it is exactly what the deck needs.
2. Sword of Feast and Famine
If running Vault of the Archangel this could be the catalyst to put the deck over the top. It is also useful to use mana to equip things ( like paying 5 for Batterskul) or forge things in via your Stoneforge Mystics, and still have mana for spells. It is a major advantage.
3. Batterskull (especially in the lifegain version)
This card is just too good to pass up. It can single-handily close out games all on it's own. Equip this on a flier and it's virtually lights out.
Honorable Mention: Sword of Fire and Ice
This is a good back-up to packing a second Jitte. It will help keep the board clean in unison with a Jitte (will not evoke the legend rule) It also has very relevant protections in red and blue. Red is good vs. burn, and the blue is good vs. combo. An Ethersworn Canonist equipped with F&I should be game.
Sideboard:
5. Manriki-Gusari
This would be great against any deck also running Stoneforge Mystic. It's an efficient reliable way to rid creatures of any pro White / Pro black swords.
This is the starting point of the debate. What do others feel?
I'll have to come back to the Elspeth debate when I have a bit more time.
I understand this isnt very synergistic with your gameplan, but have you considered cutting Spec Proc for Promise of the Bunrei and then running Wasteland and Smallpox type cards? Smallpox in particular seems good, since you dont mind losing the creature or discarding, although it might prevent you from playing Sorin :/
I also think Elspeth Tirel is better than Knight-Errant. I feel like you would almost always rather play Sorin than Knight-Errant, and at 5 mana Tirel is mugh more powerful. This deck is quite good at grinding games out anyways, so isnt the lifegain and sweeper of Tirel better than the pump on Knight-Errant?
Humility seems better than Moat for the same reason Quinn runs it; either one is game ending, for the most part (even more so in this deck than Quinn), but Humility cant be killed by Pridemage.
On the topic of Stoneforge Mystic, I feel this isnt the deck for it. In your previous versions of the deck, you had no non-token creatures except for some toolbox ones, making your deck nigh invulnerable to removal similar to how burn is. Especially preboard, wouldnt Stoneforge just eat all the removal your opponent has no other targets for?
And Im sorry if this has been addressed and I missed it, but what was your reasoning for not running pumps like Leyline of the Meek and Intangible Virtue, which you included in earlier versions?
Well, Stoneforge Mystic is just a Squire. I don't run Batterskull, and so I never intend to use SFM to cheat any equipments into play. It was either run Raise the Alarm for two 1/1 tokens, or SFM for an equipment tutor and a 1/2 "token." SFM can go ahead and eat removal, it's no better than any of my other tokens, and regardless if it eats removal, I still have a Jitte or SoFI in hand.On the topic of Stoneforge Mystic, I feel this isnt the deck for it. In your previous versions of the deck, you had no non-token creatures except for some toolbox ones, making your deck nigh invulnerable to removal similar to how burn is. Especially preboard, wouldnt Stoneforge just eat all the removal your opponent has no other targets for?
And Im sorry if this has been addressed and I missed it, but what was your reasoning for not running pumps like Leyline of the Meek and Intangible Virtue, which you included in earlier versions?
As far as the pumps go, I didn't think they did enough for me. Although, maybe that's because I started taking the deck in a different direction. Going back to the roots and focusing on pump + tokens is still a viable way to build the deck. The only reason I've evolved my build the way I have, is because it's more well-rounded and addresses the weaknesses of the original build.
Worse yet it might prevent you from playing a timely Elspeth Tirel. Smallpox is a very strong disruption spell, but I do not see how it helps our bad MU. Agrro is going to try and get through a sea of 1/1's while in my lifegain version i gain copious amounts of life.
The bad MU's are burn and combo, but much more combo. Everything else I've tested unless we get extremely unlucky draws, or very good, and timely discards we should have a decent if not favorable chance to win.
Yes to me it's not even close. In my latest build (posted below) Elspeth Tirel acts as Vindicate, plays the role of Humility, and pumps out tokens Elspeth, Knight-Errant in token generating... better mind you. She is extremely powerfull, and in many cases just downright unfair.
I agree if your going to run a card of that nature Humility would be the one. ...I'm just unsure if at turn 4 Humility will get you in the game enough to be main decked. It's greatest strength would be stopping an Emrakrul, but those are Show and Telled in as early as T3. So I guess if you are on the play and didn't miss a land drop you could beat it's attack, but main deck it seems like the slots could be used better. At least to me right now.
It likely would if you Stoneforge Mysticed showing Batterskull but Umezawa's Jitte is almost always your first target, and removing Stoneforge Mystic provides almost no value. Mystic is still a body at that point that can be equipped or get in for a few, or just block. The Jitte tutoring is relevant because it is almost necessary against any opposing Jitties. Secondly, |Stoneforge is true card advantage in white. A quite rare find. ...cards advantage that also starts to break open games. Thirdly, in my builds Stoneforge does trigger soul sisters. which is an incremental advantage over your opponent. Recently I was playing against U/W stoneforge, and the Soulsisters won game 1 through some unexpected Snapcaster and Elspeth jump interactions on my plainswalkers, and in game three almost decidedly won game 3. My opponent went for the Jace kill getting annoyed with the lifegain just beating him. I was able to kill jace with fliers after many turns of fighting thanks to flying tokens and the Jitte, but by the time he turned to my life total I was already in the 70's which crept to 100 before he started really getting in.
It was never explained in here. I never ran them while posting here, but I did outside of the source lists, but I can sum it up in that is is some sort of weird card disadvantage. Those slots are better being just more token spells. At most I would run 2 Intangible Virtue and that is it. Otherwise you could be flooded with pumps and no tokens. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad does a good job of filling the virtue role, but also performs a lot of other functions.
The vigilance would provide a lot of value in stopping surprise attacks on your plainswalkers (your turn opponent play snapcaster snapping an STP, their turn they drop an Elspeth and jump it to get in) This way your guys are never sideways for that kind of stuff. However, that is quite narrow, and I still recover so I don't think they are needed. Leyline of the Meek seems unplayable to me, because of the card slot inefficiency, and overpriced ability in game.
So here is my current list: (SB one again in flux so unposted)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Soul Warden
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Soul's Attendant
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gather the Townsfolk
2 Midnight Haunting
3 Spectral Procession
3 Elspeth Tirel
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Vault of the Archangel
12 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
Soon I will be testing something like:
-4 Gather the Townsfolk
-1 Batterskull
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+3 Bitterblossom
+1 Soul's Attendant
I'd consider running 1 Contested War Zone to act as a crusade effect without actually costing any slots.
I just Tom Martell watched beat Loius Scott Vargas with a Lingering Souls variant of U/W Stoneblade at the indy GP online. That may be a better way to take this build, but for now I will work on the W/B life gain list. Coincidence? Yes. I'm sure it is :)
Windbrisk Heith tbh looks alot more powerful then Contest Zone would be. As long as you are considering it as spell instead of land.
This thread started on March 2, but lingering souls and zealous persecution already placed 6th by Joe Bernal on February 26. Also, modern / standard decks use lingering souls as well, so its not like Hanni et al suddenly broke the card.
Here's your reference:
http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?qui...ingering+souls
http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=24588
If Lingering Souls is widely adopted, Engineered Plague will make a big come back.
If you put Ancestral Vision under a Windbrisk Heights, you get 3 cards without having to suspend right?
How so? Tokens are far too diverse to make an actual impact.
Why looking for an off-color option if you could look into on-color options to abuse, first?
In theory, you could put Emrakul (or other expensive stuff) into play. But this plan sucks with any library manipulation and any Plan B.
Sure. But the question is, which on-color card is better, and also castable without Windbrisk Heights, than Ancestral Vision? Obviously, getting an Elesh-Norn on Windbrisk Heights is savage. But getting Elesh-Norn in your hand just sucks.
Off the top of my head, the only way to get Elesh-Norn into play without Windbrisk Heights is by using Cabal Therapy and Reanimate/Unburial Rites, which requires jumping through a lot of hoops in order to make it profitable.
Then there is Elspeth or Sorin, but I really don't like these cards at all. I think the token plan obsoletes the planeswalkers and just make the deck more slow. Perhaps you can run a 1-off Elspeth/Sorin, but thats about as far as I'd go. Humility is the only white bomb I know that's actually castable and game winning.
I'd rather be able to suspend Ancestral Recall on turn 1, cheat Ancestral Recall through Windbrisk Heights, or pitch it to FoW if neither of these situations occur. I hear drawing 3 is pretty good. Also, if you have to use another color, can you really go wrong with blue?
Engineered Plague on Human gets:
Noble Hierarch
Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster Mage
Mother of Runes
Dark Confidant
Gather the Townsfolk
(Shrinks KOTR)
(Shrinks Insectile Abberation)
Doomed Traveler
Engineered Plague on Faerie gets
Bitterblossom tokens
Spellstutter Sprite
Vendilion Clique
Engineered Plague on Wizard gets
Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster Mage
Aven Mindcensor
Dark Confidant
Spellstutter Sprite
Vendilion Clique
Engineered Plague on Spirits gets
Lingering Souls
Spectral Procession
Midnight Haunting
Doomed Traveler token
(Shrinks Geist of Saint Traft)
Engineered Plague gets
Elves.dec
Goblins.dec
I'm probably missing a couple of relevant creatures, but as you can see, Engineered Plague is relevant in most matchups already.
Last edited by bruizar; 03-12-2012 at 04:30 AM.
I do run Vindicate maindeck and Serenity and Aura of Silence in the sideboard for enchantments... and of course, I do use Faerie tokens, Soldier tokens, Spirit tokens, and Vampire tokens.
I mean, if people are running hate for this rogue janky deck, then cool whatever. The randomness is why I started building this deck more like Deadguy, with Plows, Vindicates, discard, so on and so forth.
Sulfur Elemental probably is in the board to fight MoR and Elspeth's Soldiers. That's the only justification I could think of. Coverge is quite sloppy and the coverage team probably isn't to deep into Legacy, otherwise they should have mentionend his unsual maindeck and sideboard choices - e.g. the elemental amongst others.
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
I think fighting through hate your opponent might have is putting the cart before the horse as far as this deck is concerned. And plainswalkers are fine. You have plenty of stuff to disrupt your opponent before you drop them. Adding blue may be fine, but it dilutes this particular deck and, in my opinion, turns it into something else entirely.
That's cool we have Swords to Plowshares, and if that doesn't work Elspeth Tirel. ...and when those two things fail two games in a row you hope to win your next match, because that is what tournament level magic is.
As for Engineered Plague I face it against the B/W stoneforge in Star City Tampa. My opponent chose Humans because that was relevant at the time. I stuck a Serenity and all was right in the world again. Would I rather not see it come down against me? Of course. ...do I scoop as a result of it's resolution, never.
There is plenty of design space to be explored here. Being mindful of common hate is good this is why I abandoned the humans idea a few posts ago.
Oh, and on the post earlier about it being a coincidence. I wasn't being facetious. I don't think it had anything to do with this post. I think there are many people that can see the power of Lingering Souls in Legacy. Just for example Hanni and I were working on similar lists and met here.
My point about Engineered Plague is that its good against the format already. I'd opt to play it if Lingering Souls will take a bigger presence in the legacy card pool, which I think will happens since it won the GP. Of course, this deck isn't the same as the Esperblade deck. This one runs more than just spirits. It wasn't neccesarily an attack on this concept, just that Engineered Plague seems like a good card to play today and that it's something to keep in mind.
I think the Planeswalkers are too slow against things like High Tide and Hive Mind. Is it really that good to run planeswalkers? There won't be many scenarios where Sorin/Elspeth is simply better than Humility. Assuming Planeswalkers is the right build, I would consider running 2 Ancient Tomb.
Ancient Tomb pays for:
Lingering Souls
Spectral Procession
Midnight Haunting
Umezawa's Jitte + its equip cost
Elspeth Knight's Errant
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Elspeth Tirel
Humility
You have Lifelink through Sorin, Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte, and Ancient Tomb speeds up the deck tremendously.
My point about Engineered Plague is that its good against the format already. I'd opt to play it if Lingering Souls will take a bigger presence in the legacy card pool, which I think will happens since it won the GP. Of course, this deck isn't the same as the Esperblade deck. This one runs more than just spirits. It wasn't neccesarily an attack on this concept, just that Engineered Plague seems like a good card to play today and that it's something to keep in mind.
I think the Planeswalkers are too slow against things like High Tide and Hive Mind. Is it really that good to run planeswalkers? There won't be many scenarios where Sorin/Elspeth is simply better than Humility. Assuming Planeswalkers is the right build, I would consider running 2 Ancient Tomb.
Ancient Tomb pays for:
Lingering Souls
Spectral Procession
Midnight Haunting
Umezawa's Jitte + its equip cost
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Elspeth Tirel
Humility
Vault of the Archangel
You have Lifelink through Sorin, Vault, Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte, and Ancient Tomb speeds up the deck tremendously.
Also, this is probably pushing it but, I really like this card as a 1-off against grindy decks Sky Hussar. It basically turns any of your token generators into a Dark Confidant without being weak to removal or doing self-inflicted life loss. SHOULD you splash/play blue, you could even alpha strike with everything, drop Sky Hussar and be there to defend too :-), but even if you don't play blue, if you can drag out games, Sky Hussar in hand would be insane. It's immune to Force of Will, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Daze and Inquisition of Kozilek. The only thing that stops it is Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize, though it protects itself from Hymns by increasing your hand size every turn. Stifle also stops it, but that really doesn't matter, because its an insane trade if they do that.
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