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Thread: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

  1. #1

    [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Following all the accusations of hating dredge last time, I decided this was a good time to talk about it.

    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Dark_Side.html

    Let me hear what you think!

    /edit: All fixed now
    Last edited by Mon,Goblin Chief; 03-09-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Excellent article, as always. Feldman's primer was obviously a classic, but the archetype needs to be updated with the inclusion of new toys (Faithless Looting) and hate (Grafdigger's Cage).

    Also, not your article in particular: but a lot of great Legacy articles on SCG this week. Every week should be Legacy Week.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Great article!
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Quite a pleasure to read.

    I lose to Dredge much of the time I play against it, so it was really useful for me to get an inside view of how to play the deck...

    Thanks!

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Dredge deck in top 8...used Flayer of the Hatebound instead of FKZ...interesting choice. Looks like you nailed it, it was a strong deck to bring against the mid-range and aggro-control decks (which made up the rest of the top 8, save Spiral Tide.)
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Dredge deck in top 8...used Flayer of the Hatebound instead of FKZ...interesting choice. Looks like you nailed it, it was a strong deck to bring against the mid-range and aggro-control decks (which made up the rest of the top 8, save Spiral Tide.)
    Flayer was actually mentioned to me in the comments, which I found quite interesting at the time, too (I even mentioned the deck didn't have enough Dread Returns to support it as it was - and lo and behold, the T8 list has three of them). And yeah, I'm quite happy I called Dredge being well positioned :D
    Last edited by Mon,Goblin Chief; 03-14-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Well dredge's performance will always depend on the amount of hate it faces. One piece is usually not enough. 2+ and it begins to get crippling..

    I don't believe that individuals would have skimped on the grave hate at the GP though considering Dredge's recent growth in popularity (in regards to LED/Faithless Dredge). Not sure what Ferguson faced though. quite interested..
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    I'm Ando Ferguson. A quick note- my opponents definitely did not skimp on graveyard hate. I also loved Flayer all two days, and i agree that the three Dread Returns was a necessity to support the Flayer.

    I'll be writing up a tournament report soon, so keep your eyes peeled for that.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Klazam View Post
    I'm Ando Ferguson. A quick note- my opponents definitely did not skimp on graveyard hate. I also loved Flayer all two days, and i agree that the three Dread Returns was a necessity to support the Flayer.

    I'll be writing up a tournament report soon, so keep your eyes peeled for that.
    If I"m dread returning anything I should already be winning the game. Dread return has either been an afterthought (sure I'll Dread Return my Troll for a fatty) or its actually been a saving grace, but not because I'm reanimating a specific creature but rather because I'm generating 3-4 zombies off of it. Many a times I've dread returned an Ichorid simply to net more zombies to push through.

    Flayer seems good only in the respect that it gets around the combat step. I would venture to say that only comes up if you're playing against Propaganda'esque cards which isn't too common imo. If its there for the undying ability as it allows you to sac it twice I would rather use something like Woodfall Primus.

    1. How did you board for game 2 without knowing their hate? or did you just forgo boarding all together for game2?
    2. What kinds of grave hate did you face?
    3. How did your SB cards help you in fighting said hate or how did you interact with your opponent in that regard.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    I might be already winning, but the momentum can change pretty quickly in Legacy, so I value the ability to win "RIGHT NOW". I do not want to pass a turn if I can ever help it. (I play Dredge with a combo mentality, with zombie attacks as a plan B)

    The Flayer also lets me win in tight spots, quickly. This is relevant against combo decks of which I faced 6.

    Another feature of the Flayer is that it can win games that Flame-Kin Zealot can't. Often, I found myself winning in positions that FKZ would not have. Ex: 2 Narcomobeas in play, Cabal Therapy, 2 bridge, Flayer, 2 Dread, Grave-troll in grave. I cabal therapy, then i now have 3 creatures. I sac all to dread return flayer to play, with two zombies on the side. I sac all to dread return Grave-Troll and win. This happened a LOT of the time at the GP. It's not a position where the Flame-Kin Zealot can win in.

    1) It's pretty easy to predict what types of hate the opponent would have. If it's against anything that runs Snapcaster, I board in my Cabal Therapy and name Surgical Extraction. If its anything else, I board in my Chain of Vapors. Chain of Vapors are awesome because they are so flexible. Most hate that people play is permanent-based.
    2) I faced: Surgical Extraction, Ravenous Trap, Leyline of the Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Grafdigger's cage, Faerie macabre, Bojuka Bog, Knight of the Reliquary, and Scavenging Ooze.
    3) Cabal Therapy to discard the ones that live in the hand, and Chain of Vapors to bounce the hate in my critical turn. I did not mulligan to anti-hate, rather i made sure i had either Cabal Therapy, Chain of Vapor, or 2 lands in all game 2's.

    Any more questions?

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: Joining the Dark Side

    Quote Originally Posted by Klazam View Post
    I might be already winning, but the momentum can change pretty quickly in Legacy, so I value the ability to win "RIGHT NOW". I do not want to pass a turn if I can ever help it. (I play Dredge with a combo mentality, with zombie attacks as a plan B)

    The Flayer also lets me win in tight spots, quickly. This is relevant against combo decks of which I faced 6.

    Another feature of the Flayer is that it can win games that Flame-Kin Zealot can't. Often, I found myself winning in positions that FKZ would not have. Ex: 2 Narcomobeas in play, Cabal Therapy, 2 bridge, Flayer, 2 Dread, Grave-troll in grave. I cabal therapy, then i now have 3 creatures. I sac all to dread return flayer to play, with two zombies on the side. I sac all to dread return Grave-Troll and win. This happened a LOT of the time at the GP. It's not a position where the Flame-Kin Zealot can win in.

    1) It's pretty easy to predict what types of hate the opponent would have. If it's against anything that runs Snapcaster, I board in my Cabal Therapy and name Surgical Extraction. If its anything else, I board in my Chain of Vapors. Chain of Vapors are awesome because they are so flexible. Most hate that people play is permanent-based.
    2) I faced: Surgical Extraction, Ravenous Trap, Leyline of the Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Grafdigger's cage, Faerie macabre, Bojuka Bog, Knight of the Reliquary, and Scavenging Ooze.
    3) Cabal Therapy to discard the ones that live in the hand, and Chain of Vapors to bounce the hate in my critical turn. I did not mulligan to anti-hate, rather i made sure i had either Cabal Therapy, Chain of Vapor, or 2 lands in all game 2's.

    Any more questions?
    I understand the notion of winning outright without pussy footing around. I think that was one of the primary reasons I used the Sphinx/Zealot variant of dredge for a good minute. So I'll concede that point to you. Sometimes its just preference. And thanks for explaining how Flayer affected your games. I completely (because of ignorance) didn't see its connection with a fatty Grave Troll being recurred for the final blow. I guess this is why your version needs to run 3 Dread Return as well. You want to be able to hit on both the Flayer and the 2nd DR to bring back said troll.

    And although you said you don't usually mulligan to hate you also said you wouldn't keep a game 2 hand without Cabal Therapy (to strip their hate) or Chain of Vapor (which is used against permanent based hate)

    I guess you did say "OR" so whichever combination comes up for game 2 will be the keeper.

    No more questions... for now. lol ;p
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