In my experience, Merfolk players always side out their removal game 2 vs TES.Originally Posted by Final Fortune
If they Dismember your Xantid Swarm, you have to build up 2 less storm.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Got utterly thrashed by Merfolk today. Looks like I'm going to have to re-buy those Xantid Swarms after all. No idea why I sold them in the first place.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
I personally don't sell storm staples, as having to re acquire them later is exceptionally annoying. Also don't see the point in selling xantid warm, as the card is worth 2 dollars so if I sold a playset I'd be lucky to get $8 for my playset. But back to the topic at hand.
@Final Fortune: How many merfolk decks run dismember postboard against TES? And for that matter, what merfolk decks even maindeck dismember anymore? I haven't seen dismember in merfolk post M13 at all. Even before it started to disappear from lists. Xantid swarm is the best card against merfolk, hands down. Nothing is better than swarm. Also, if they dismember swarm on YOUR turn, you can very easily just win via wishing for tendrils after dumping your hand as dismember is +3 storm if used on our turn. Even if it isn't used on our turn, permanent storm count of 2 is quite good.
Definitely concur with Cuthbert about the grapeshot v. merfolk.
Also of note, the empty plan is great against merfolk. They can't answer 10 goblins on turn 1 ever.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
It's awesome that people are finally on the probe plan. That card has been hoss.
My maindeck is similar to Bryants, but I've cut the 4th burning wish. The card is miserable in multiples, and I feel 3 is enough when you already run 4 tutors and 10 cantrips. Also, the first wish has been the first card I board out in almost every matchup.
I finally tested the maverick matchup extensively, and it's not too pretty preboard. My plan as of now is:
-2 Silence
-3 Duress
+3 Deathmark
+2 Chain of vapor
I tried IoK and it was horrible. Having to choose between GSZ, Thalia, and/or cannonist was the worst feeling. This plan basically allows me to completely ignore maverick until they present a threat. I found that I'd rather further my game plan with a turn 1 cantrip rather than IoK on turn 1. This would lead to awkward openings with both a cantrip and an IoK.
Also, until Stax realistically becomes more than 0.000000001% of the metagame, I refuse to play echoing truth.
I suppose it's a metagame consideration, but I see Dismember in Merfolk quite often and the players tend to keep Dismember in post-board to see whether or not you SB Xantid Swarm, the same with STP in BANT.
Edit: Even if they don't keep Dismember in the MD for game 2, there's always the option to bring them back in for game 3.
Sure 4 Damage is a boon if we're holding Burning Wish and capable of storming out by hand, but you've still turned that dead card into a respective counter spell vs your disruption and you still have to resolve Tendrils thru' whatever actual counter spells they're holding.
I'm not saying Xantid Swarm is a bad card, it obviuosly shines in the Reanimator, Sneak/Show and Merfolk match ups, but it's dead vs. RUG where Silence/Orim's Chants aren't and you only have so much SB space. I think Chant effects are pretty solid vs. Merfolk too, and there aren't any Tier 1 match ups vs. Islands I can't SB them in for.
I just went 2-2 at my shops weekly legacy tournament. I'm running bryant's older list which runs the inquistions of kozileck and a second ad nauseam. I cant remember alot of it because I had been up for 24 hours so the 1 round loss to Sneak show was due to fatigue. My only other loss was to Stax that got the recurring Wasteland lock with crucible of worlds which is really annoying to say the least. My 2 wins were against Maverick where I went 2-1 and Stiflenaught going 2-0 only because the player misplayed a force of will on my inquisition of kozileck isntead of waiting for me to burning wish my tendrils. I wish i could give more details but as I said earlier I was working on no sleep and when i got home i promptly passed out but I do remember not top4ing the event.
One surefire way to fit in Xantid Swarms without cutting any (and I do mean any) storm engines or utility Wish targets would be to run Thoughtseizes in the maindeck as the targeted discard spell of choice; seems like it would sting vs. Canadian Thresh, but in having to deal with an uptick of Force of Will combo decks due to Elton Brand in addition to Maverick and blue decks not budging an inch at all in terms of tier one status, fitting in Swarm (and therefore potentially Thoughtseize in the maindeck) might be correct in that it's the only way to ensure we have all of our bases covered. There are way, way too many potential decklist (sideboard in particular) permutations floating around in my head right now to list them all (and that's before throwing in the sinking feeling that Counterbalance might be coming back and the fact that there's absolutely no possible way to fit in Pyroblasts or even one Wipe Away at this point without sacrificing (sacrificing might be a bit hyperbolic considering we can potentially have seven discard spells postboard with a multitude of certain configurations I'm thinking of, but still) one of the aforementioned matchups), but here's the very first one that came to mind, just so you can kind of get a feel for what I'm thinking of:
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn (still have no idea why people are playing a Mire here)
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Thoughtseize
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozliek
So yeah, I might just be wasting a bunch of time in testing out Thoughtseize in the maindeck, but in the few games I've played so far, it hasn't actually been that bad. So yeah, Thoughtseize in the maindeck. Try it out. Potentially makes the Maverick matchup that much better game one. In addition to that bit about Counterbalance above, I still haven't tried and/or thought up decklists+configurations with Gitaxian Probe in mind, but I'm still pretty certain in theory that playing an actual purpose-serving card over it is just going to be better.
EDIT: Didn't realize that this is Alex's exact board (minus Thoughtseize for Duress in the board, although making it so by flip-flopping the SB Duress for a Thoughtseize is indeed one of the permutations I've had in mind) on page 25. Swear I didn't bite it. Also, holy fuck, Twins bullpen just gave up nine runs.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
I run the Mire because it's Japanese foil and hot as shit.
I don't like this list at all, it sacrifices a lot of life in order to add one more Xantid Swarm to the sideboard. Have you tested Thoughtseize against RUG Delver? It sucks. You could add the third Xantid to my sideboard by cutting the Deathmark that your list isn't playing without giving up hope against aggressive Delver decks.
You're still on the 2/2 Chant/Silence split?
You're still on two Ad Nauseam?
There is also an element of bluff. You can pretend to play for example R/B Goblins. This trick was also popular some seasons ago in Canadian Threshold, using Wooded Foothills to bluff Zoo/Goblins/RG Beats. I have mindtricked this way my opponents at least 5 times while playing TES. It doesn't hurt us but can help so why not?
Mire is also cheaper which can be a factor for some players.
Pending it's an Onslaught original with the pre-8th edition border, a valid reason.
The element of bluffs and tells is the entire reason why I wouldn't run Mire and have chosen to run the far more ubiquitous Tarn. Mire is no Verdant Catacombs (to pose as like a Junk deck) in Reanimator; people are either going to put you on Aggro Loam or TES once they see it. I don't know, maybe I'm giving my opponents too much credit in their deductive skills, but I just can't foresee them thinking, "Oh, Bloodstained Mire, probably a R/B deck, I'm gonna tap out and not leave up Spell Pierce/Lightning Bolt."
It's sacrificing life so that it can not have "dead" cards (Chants aren't necessarily a blank, still haven't come to the conclusion over whether or not they're okay to leave in when on the play or draw postboard, but we'll just call them that for now; if they aren't, then Thoughtseize probably wouldn't be necessary) postboard vs. Maverick actually, in addition to having a better game one. Thoughtseize might be shitty, that post yesterday was more of a brainstorming exercise to find a way to have solid board plans against the field without cutting any of the eight "fundamental" Wish targets than anything really, but I could also foresee it being quite good. But yeah, if I come to the conclusion that Chants are actually still decent against them, we could actually honestly bump Swarm up to a four-of in the board and still have plenty of room for Maverick (thus reverting back to Duress as the maindeck 3/4-of targeted discard spell); this is, of course, assuming Swarm is a desired sideboard card over something else (going back to that fear that Counterbalance could be coming back en masse).
F'rinstance, if Chants are okay vs. Maverick, this could be the SB (again, one of a plethora, though I'm kind of starting to fundamentally like boarding in cards to deal with permanents as opposed to leaving them in as Wish targets; if I come to a conclusion on that, it would cut down a lot of the total number of possible sideboard permutations):
8 fundamental Wish targets (Thoughtseize as the discard spell, since we're playing 4 Duress main; Grapeshot the sole disruption for permanent-based hate)
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor/Deathmark/Inquisition of Kozilek
4 free slots (Xantid Swarm, IoK, Pyroblast, Wipe Away, etc.)
The board plan vs. Maverick being -4 Duress for +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Echoing Truth +1 Chain of Vapor/Deathmark/Inquisition of Kozilek. It could even be correct to board in Grapeshot, leaving open another potential SB slot, as one wouldn't necessarily need to even play Deathmark at that point. It might also be correct to forgo hand disruption, leave in the Cov/DM slot, and board in Grapeshot over Thoughtseize.
Pretty certain it's correct.
Pretty certain it's correct.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
I have been enjoying the one Ad Nauseam. I don't think I would ever go back to two.
What about the 2/2 Orim's/Silence split? Has anyone done any testing with this lately?
Surgical Extraction and Meddling Mages are such corner cases that I don't think these should be reasons to run or not run a split. There are usually much better targets for aforementioned cards rather than hit our silences.
So I believe it boils down to fighting Leyline of Sanctity & Misdirection versus fighting a quick creature attack.
The only deck that runs Leyline of Sanctity and/or Misdirection is Sneak and Show.
It is only really good to have 4x silences versus one deck, but it does help a lot in this match up.
The only creature decks that put pressure on us quick enough is maybe goblins or affinity. Orim's Chant can timewalk an aggro deck to get better use of an Ad Nauseam as well.
But like I initially asked, has anyone done any real testing with both? If so what conclusions have you made?
Well, my answer is a lot more basic than that. I don't own any Zendicar fetches at all, but I own all of the Onslaught fetches. So I make do with what I own.
I played four Silence at StarCity St.Louis. Never saw a single Meddling Mage or Surgical Extraction. I did see Leyline of Sanctity, twice. Silence definitely shined in that matchup.
On a different note, I saw three decks that could go MoM-Thalia-win top @ the Las Vegas Open. *cough*Infest*cough*
Just some thoughts,
Matt
@Bryant
Question:
Regarding the Strategies to Side:
Why is better to side out the Ponder instead the Gitaxian.
Overall Gitaxian seems weaker.
and because of extirpate effects I don't think it worths.
Thanks
Japanese Foil Bloodstained Mire only comes that way ;)
I don't think Mire really screams combo. If anything it says burn, discard, or some sort of mid-range deck to me. But if you're really on the mind-fuck with your fetches plan, I'd suggest playing a full playset of Flooded Strands. I just don't give a shit, how often is your opponent going to make snap judgements off of fetchlands? You were probably going to beat those kinds of players anyway.
I was talking about Thoughtseize vs. RUG Delver not Maverick. Obviously it's better in the Maverick match-up, but our Maverick match-up isn't really bad. In fact, I think it's pretty damn good after sideboard. Silence is fine game one against Maverick, but after sideboard I board out the Duress then as many Silences that I can. I wouldn't want four Xantid, it's really only good in match-ups with little to no removal in their deck. See: Reanimator, Sneak Show, and Merfolk. That's about it. Counterbalance isn't coming back in mass any time soon, it's played in some UW Miracles lists and that's about it.
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deathmark
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
The only slot here I'd be willing to cut is the Deathmark for another Inquisition.
Sideboarding (With Mind Break Trap)
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Deathmark
+2 Echoing Truth
-4 Silence
-2 Gitaxian Probe
Sideboarding (Without Mind Break Trap)
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Deathmark
+2 Echoing Truth
-4 Silence
-2 Duress
It's not.
It's not.
I haven't gotten around to updating that, it's probably better to side out Probes.
EDIT: Did a quick update at work, I apologize if anything is wrong.
EDIT 2: Updated a bit more carefully and organized the decks generically by type.
Interview with the guy who top 8'd SCG: St. Louis: (Probably not worth putting in the opening post)
http://blip.tv/scglive/stl-lgc-inter...kinson-6261529
Last edited by Bryant Cook; 07-26-2012 at 12:10 PM.
As someone who's done testing with both, I still prefer the 2/2 split (although 3/2 in favor of Silence is probably correct if one should wish to run five Chants now), as you will often times need the benefits that either offers; needs to be 2/2 and not 3/1 because of Infernal Tutor. A very common line versus Dredge is to Diminishing Returns on turn two with the intention of Chantwalking the following turns into the win, and you don't want to lose life on one of those turns because of any unfortunate Zombie tokens already in play pre-DR; this is in addition to the aggro decks you brought up, plus corner-case stuff like preventing Annihilator triggers. You can basically throw out the Meddling Mage scenario (and, even though you yourself, the best pure hitter in all of baseball, didn't bring it up, the Cabal Therapy scenario in Dredge as well), as Mage will never usually name a white one-mana instant (it will usually be incorrectly naming Tendrils; it should in general be naming Lion's Eye Diamond unless the opponent has more information).
@Terrible Tim— there's a public access show host, based in Staten Island if I'm not mistaken, that bears your Source handle; are you that guy?
@Bryant— I feel like there's a bit of miscommunication going on concerning why I brought up Thoughtseize; we both realize that losing two life vs. Canadian Thresh is super shitty, but it was a way to have bona-fide hate v. Maverick, blue decks, and Fow-based combo decks without cutting any Wish targets/having any wasted post-board slots in the starting 60, as your config does v. Maverick. If I can get off of work early, there's a weekly tourney tonight that I can attend in preparation for a bigger one this Sunday; since it's smaller scale, I might try out the potentially shitty Thoughtseize config. Probably will report back on how it does if I can.
Also, I'd like to clarify/amend what I said previously. Running just one Ad Nauseam might indeed be correct, but it's replacement shouldn't be a card that seems like it does absolutely nothing, such as Gitaxian Probe; it could be a 14th land, a 9th disruption spell (that could potentially free up a precious sideboard slot), etc.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
No, that's not me. I live in the beautiful, cloud covered, misty, rain soaked Pacific Northwest (not by choice). My "handle" comes from my racing. I race THIS at our local short track, Evergreen Speedway and my nickname at the track is "Terrible Tim". My car number is "68". Thus the "TerribleTim68".I just use the same handle on every message board I visit.
What I enjoy about Probe is that it's .5 of a protection spell. It doesn't actually protect but it does it's job well enough that you know to not run your head into a wall. The other .5 is a cantrip against non-blue decks. Opening hands full of protection against Maverick or Goblins can just suck.
I'm not saying that making the two Probes into Inquisitions or Thoughtseizes would be bad, but it would hurt in non-blue match-ups with opening hands full of non-relevant cards. What would go in these new sideboard slots? More protection?
I could see something like:
The EPIC Storm
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Silence
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
2 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
This is what I would be on with nine main deck protection spells. But don't you think that's a lot of protection between the main deck and sideboard? How do you sideboard against decks where protection is bad? You literally cannot sideboard out Silences or Duress. What're you going to bring in? More protection?
I think I'll stick with Probe (List on the opening post).
@Bryant:
The 2 probes List was the List I finally reach also,
- I didn't want to play 2 A.N (Initial idea)
- 2 Probes act as Parity (Concept well known in Programming)
Now and looking at the GP Ghent and to the List, I think I'd like to move to the No Chant Effect List.
So I'd like your suggestion:
The changes I'm thinking of are:
- 4 Silence = + 4 Therapy
- 1 C.Mox = + 1 Probe
Maybe let in 4 Duress and 3 Therapy instead.
I'd really like to play 4 Probe so, maybe taking out a Land could work.
Long time ago TES worked with 11 lands, maybe go back to 12 and 4 probes...
Still thinking next I'll test.
For sure, I would not play 1 C.Mox only.
The 3 B.Wish number I think is an error, at elast in the TES archetype.
Please let me know your ideas or tests if you made.
If anyone has any idea related please let me know.
Thanks
Bests regards.
Another point, related to the suggestion,
the move I'd suggest will be:
-1 Inquisition = + 1 Probe
OR
-1 Inquisition = +1 A.N. (you'll loose sometime becuase of having the 2nd A.N. but once occured the next time it will tkae long time untile it happens again...)
/ ******Edit Start ****;
Currently TES With Therapies Testing List:
With these ideas I'll post my Currently TES with Therapies Testing List:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [JGC] Flooded Strand
2 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [U] Underground Sea
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [7E] Duress
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [PD3] Cabal Therapy
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
Points:
- I really didnt miss the 13th land.
- A.Nauseam is still strong
- Therapy is a great card, Althouth I recognize is extremely powerfull in the appropiate hands.
- Seems that when playing 4 Probes, the cards that seem to be repeated more are the lands and the Moxen, Have I been understood with this? I mean, Probes simply thick the deck and Moxen is the card that you don't want to see more than 1 and with all these cantrips you re probable to see them more often that not, and the same for lands, for the rest of cards, I think the numbers seem to be ok.
- I'm not sure if moving to 11 lands 4 moxen.
/ ****** Edit End ****** ;
Last edited by Pelikanudo; 07-27-2012 at 07:57 PM. Reason: just sharing my thoutgh about the new build
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote