[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[culby218]

Royce on to the semis!!! Congrats on making the PT as well.

[Lemnear]

Lem, Looked at that list! good approach!

One suggestion if I'm allowed:

it will run totally 17 lands which is a huge amount, DDFT runs 16 as example I won't know how can this affect to the hellbent issue.

Therefore, the first thing I will try to do will be to compress to 4 Gemstones and No Bayou in base - we have then 16 lands.
The problem with C.M is that I really consider it as any percentage of my lands-mana generators, shit I just sometimes use it as the unique mana generator to win games!. meaning that I asume sometimes I just will use C.M as my main mana source even! having total 15-or 15 and a half of mana generators.
Well if we dont consider CoT a land then you' re playing just 12 and a half land and 8 fetches meaning you really can lock yourself as an example of the result. or not getting the correct mana at the ritgh moment. Having any number of C.M reduced drastically this possibility.

Also, I recognice at the begginning I was an Anti EtW until Bahamut conviced me, from that time and the switch to full discard I don't remember a first Game lost in ages.
So maybe the second thing will be to include EtW somehow instead of the resulting 17th land.

The 3rd thing will be to maybe include a 3rd duress instead of 4th CoT having then 15 lands...
Definately it will be just my Build but replacing 3C.M. for 3CoT.

But I just cannot disagree on the statements Bryant pointed just after the posted List.
I hate C.M. also but I really think it is a neccesary evil in the TES strategy. remember Surgical precission means having the possibility of a T1-2 Win!

Well just my first thoughts do with them what you see convenient. ;)

I think you guys miss an important topic: how many turns/landdrops you play, in average, against decks with protection?

Realistically, you play at least 3 turns in that case, you want to make your landdrops and you run a shitload of cantrips to grab LED or shuffle lands away if you fear that infernal could become blocked. The issue only appears during turn 1 & 2 and I make the bold statement, that I doubt, that you successfully combo off T1/2 more than 18% looking at all games (pre- & post-board), but that the majority of these kills require/feature LED. I suggest setting all this into relation and deeply think about that. It can't be, that we discuss a possible addition aimed for games lasting longer than two turns (which are sure more than half the games I play, especially the post-board ones) with arguments like "but Chrome Mox can give us hellbent turn 1". Tell me honestly how many times, Mox was required for you to get hellbent for a turn 1 combo?

Just to highlight: I did not remove EtW, because I (the guy, who brought you the "tri-force" of Probe/Therapy/EtW in the first place) suddenly think the card is bad. I still love to fling the tri-force, but you sure realize, that the hate for the goblin burst did not decrese and that we board it out often to not scoop to Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Terminus, Engineered Explosives, Izzet Staticaster, Toxic Deluge, Electrickery and stuff. Why bother with Moxen every game 2 & 3 if the main reason to run them is boarded out so often? With the current low on MB defense against storm game 1, I was lately able to win as easy with AN as with EtW, so I chopped the 6-mana playline off Infernal to DRASTICALLY improve the number of cards you can flip to Ad Nauseam which balanced out the loss of the 3 IMS named Chrome Mox.

I don't get why you think you lose the ability to combo turn 1 or 2 just because of the moxen. You still have plenty of 6/7/8/9 mana playlines for turns 1/2/3 which can even profit from the manaboost.


things to have in your head:

~70% of the meta are FoW-decks
~28% of the meta are Daze-decks
In every game 2 & 3 against those decks, you play against a very defensive hand
You need to overcome the defense which takes time
You have a ~18% chance to find a T1/2 combo in your opener

Question: Can we seriously justify the focus on T1/2 and likely give away every game lasting longer than these turns?



Edit: There is sure a lot of space for discussion in regards to CoT vs. Vein and how many to run ... or not. It's hard to discuss if the concept is still not clear

[Bryant Cook]

I think what you're failing to realize is the deck you're attempting to make is just a worse version of ANT.

• Without Chrome Mox you're slower, it's a fact. No amount of City of Traitors will change this. In match-ups like Death and Taxes/Elves/MUD/Maverick/Burn we need to win quickly before we're either dead or they play something critical. Mox helps us do this, more importantly it allows for even more turn one Empty the Warrens by letting us cantrip into the missing piece AND THEN make goblins.

• Our rituals aren't as strong as ANT's if we wait, we don't have the natural powerful PIFs that they do that they gain by being slower. What do we gain? I don't see much of anything.

• We now have issues with becoming hellbent with 16-17 lands, even more than ANT.

• You're praising greatness against soft-counters in a metagame that is currently cutting them.

• You've removed the turn one Empty plan off of six mana and the synergies with Therapy making the deck weaker.

• Only having Ad Nauseam makes us very narrow in our approaches and everything becomes too costly. What about the games you don't draw your Sol lands, that will happen.

• Color issues will happen in a 3.5 color deck that's trying to support colorless lands.

• Half the removal spells you mentioned rarely see play and the others are only out of 2 decks.

[itrytostorm]

I went 3-1 in a grinder, 4-4 main event, and 2-1 in 2 win a boxes. I'm loving the position of the deck (running the 6 fetch md bayou version). I'll post my notes later.

[Bryant Cook]

I had a few friends day two with TES after chatting with them and then Royce, I may try out Carpet of Flowers over Needle as the TES players said it was really underwhelming on the weekend with the lack of Reanimator/S&S running around. I would still side in Carpets against Miracles making the SB-ing plan:

-3 Chrome Mox
-2/3 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Empty the Warrens

+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Xantid Swarm
+3 Abrupt Decay
+0/1 Tendrils of Agony

Having Carpet also allows us to become stronger against the UR/UWR Delver/SFM decks after they side in their soft counters they've been shaving from their main decks for Treasure Cruise.

[redhamjack]

So I wound up with 27 points after starting day two a disappointing 1-3. My overall record was 9-3 (8-1 day 1), so with another win I could have likely moneyed, but I couldn't justify missing a day of work on a couple of $200 coin-flips. I wish I could have stayed but was pretty tilted and I'm glad I had a ride back with my friends (who were going further west than I).

My list:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstrom
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine

SB:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past In Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacare
1 Temlin Performance
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor

I settled on the Temlin Performance after seeing and hearing a lot of folks on storm this weekend. It allows you to steal a game in the storm matchup, helps with Sneak and Show, and can occasionally win you a game against any creature-less deck (Energy Field/RiP Miracles). Honestly, it won me one game all weekend, and likely could have just been another slot. I never really wanted the sideboard discard spell, but right now I'm replacing the Preformance with a Void Snare.

I never sided in Abrupt Decay (None of my matches called for it) and every time I sided in Needle it was disappointing. I might try to look for another card to use here, but there isn't much that gives us that kind of flexibility.

The other choice I made was 12 lands, 6 discard, 2 cabal ritual. I had no problems finding lands, and only mulliganed a few times the whole weekend. 6 discard gives you one when you need one, but doesn't overwhelm your hand. I like 6, but could definitely see the desire to run 7. I'm running Thoughtsieze because a lot of the cards I hate losing to are creatures and in my mind it's worth the two life. I like the extra speed offered by Cabal Ritual game one. The other benefit is a ton of players will see the Cabal Ritual and bring in a lot of graveyard hate game two, hopefully blanking more relevant threats. I usually side out these two first for any sideboard card.

32X doesn't warrant too much discussion. I'm disappointed in how I played day two. It was my first ever GP Day Two and I think part of it was nerves and the cards not being there. I had 2 turns to find any win con against dredge. 2 ponders shuffled me into nothing and a brainstorm locked me out of that one. Gave up tough long game 2&3s against RU and RUW. I look forward to continuing to practice with the deck. I still feel like I'm learning something every game I play with it.

Thanks to all of you guys on here. I don't post too much, but I appreciate your effort at evolving this deck. Keep storming!

[Final Fortune]

I used to run Wastelands in my vintage storm decks to kill Workshops and Academy while also playing around Thorn and stuff, but switching Moxen for SB lands in big style in Legacy is a waste of space

It's only a waste of space if you presume it's a waste of space, I find being able to modulate my mana sources between speed and consistency based on the deck I'm facing extremely useful, I don't care if it's a land, Carpet of Flowers or Cabal Ritual some times you just want to be able to play like TES and other times you just want to play like so your deck is better adapted to withstand whatever it's facing rather than trying to address the problem directly with more situational cards. You're pretty much trying to do the same thing, except back wards so you can keep a bunch of do nothing cards (IMO) like Pithing Needling in your board and drop matches vs Death&Taxes etc. by not being able to gold fish game 1 in time.

[Lemnear]

It's only a waste of space if you presume it's a waste of space, I find being able to modulate my mana sources between speed and consistency based on the deck I'm facing extremely useful, I don't care if it's a land, Carpet of Flowers or Cabal Ritual some times you just want to be able to play like TES and other times you just want to play like so your deck is better adapted to withstand whatever it's facing rather than trying to address the problem directly with more situational cards. You're pretty much trying to do the same thing, except back wards so you can keep a bunch of do nothing cards (IMO) like Pithing Needling in your board and drop matches vs Death&Taxes etc. by not being able to gold fish game 1 in time.

Modular mana does not solve your problem of drawing a potential slow hand against Eidolon and Thalia. Adding this fact to the density of blue decks in the metagame, I don't see myself running "stockup" mana in the SB rather than strong MB mana and fixes for problematic matchups in the side.


Edit (a bit late, because I was not in the mood and had barely time):

• Without Chrome Mox you're slower, it's a fact. No amount of City of Traitors will change this. In match-ups like Death and Taxes/Elves/MUD/Maverick/Burn we need to win quickly before we're either dead or they play something critical. Mox helps us do this, more importantly it allows for even more turn one Empty the Warrens by letting us cantrip into the missing piece AND THEN make goblins.

I'm fully aware that our T1/2 burst suffers which is primary relevant against D&T, Burn and other fringe decks (Goblins are not a super good play against Elves tbh), but not in most other games where we need to slice through defense or sculpt a hand for 1-2 turns.

• Our rituals aren't as strong as ANT's if we wait, we don't have the natural powerful PIFs that they do that they gain by being slower. What do we gain? I don't see much of anything.

Correct. That why I hope that the combination of DR, RoF and CoT can compensate for that. We gain a graveyard independent way to go beyond turn 3 with an advantage otherwise only CR can offer.

• We now have issues with becoming hellbent with 16-17 lands, even more than ANT.

Possibly. Encountered the problem 5 times so far and 4 times I was able to fix it with a Brainstorm or a LED.

• You're praising greatness against soft-counters in a metagame that is currently cutting them.

I still see Daze, Pierce and Thalia played, even if Pierce is going down due to UR Cruise taking RUG Delvers spot. If players cut down the softcounters it still offers the manaboost to power the combo

• You've removed the turn one Empty plan off of six mana and the synergies with Therapy making the deck weaker.

No, I removed the turn 1, 6-mana EtW via one of your 3 MB Infernals and the natural drawn EtW. Thats all.

• Only having Ad Nauseam makes us very narrow in our approaches and everything becomes too costly. What about the games you don't draw your Sol lands, that will happen.

I'm not sure what you want to express with the last sentence. If you want to highlight them not offering mana if revealed to Ad Nauseam, then I like to hint at the lowered manacost and more outs to draw Petals. Tbh, I don't see a Problem

• Color issues will happen in a 3.5 color deck that's trying to support colorless lands.

The 3 Moxen can only fix these if you have also an on-color card to spare. I'll sure have an eye on that topic

[Bryant Cook]

I'm fully aware that our T1/2 burst suffers which is primary relevant against D&T, Burn and other fringe decks (Goblins are not a super good play against Elves tbh), but not in most other games where we need to slice through defense or sculpt a hand for 1-2 turns.

In my opinion, Goblins are fine on the play since Elves is a turn three deck. But you don't ever encounter hands where Mox allows you to cast Duress/Therapy on turn two and then win with the mana it generates? Because I do. I think you as well as some other people make Mox out to be a lot worse than it actually is. The card is fine, it's not fantastic but it's the best option we have.

Correct. That why I hope that the combination of DR, RoF and CoT can compensate for that. We gain a graveyard independent way to go beyond turn 3 with an advantage otherwise only CR can offer.

Chaining Tutors to win hasn't been much of an issue past turn three if need be, I don't see Sol Lands having a big influence there. Especially at the cost of making Ad Nauseam worse.

Possibly. Encountered the problem 5 times so far and 4 times I was able to fix it with a Brainstorm or a LED.

I'm going to call this one a small sample size, also, in real gameplay you won't want to be using Brainstorms to get hellbent. You'll want to sculpt and hide cards from disruption.

I still see Daze, Pierce and Thalia played, even if Pierce is going down due to UR Cruise taking RUG Delvers spot. If players cut down the softcounters it still offers the manaboost to power the combo

The Thalia argument is absurd since even with Sol Lands they don't generate enough mana to win through her anyway. Pierce is on the decline and we can help agains soft counters post-board with Carpet of Flowers.

No, I removed the turn 1, 6-mana EtW via one of your 3 MB Infernals and the natural drawn EtW. Thats all.

Which is relevant. When I won the Grand Prix side event in Boston in the finals two games in a row I went six mana into Empty the Warren – both times with Infernal Tutors! I can have on lookers vouch for me on this one. It's an important line that you removed.

I'm not sure what you want to express with the last sentence. If you want to highlight them not offering mana if revealed to Ad Nauseam, then I like to hint at the lowered manacost and more outs to draw Petals. Tbh, I don't see a Problem

There are games in which we don't draw the Chrome Mox/Empty the Warrens slot. This will hurt your Ad Nauseams, even with a slightly lowered curve (1 card from 4cmc to 0). There's a reason ANTs Ad Nauseams are worse and relying on four Lotus Petal is part of it.

Also, your gameplan now is very one dimensional AND costly. In order to do anything you must Ad Nauseam or Burning Wish (even more expensive if you have to tutor for it).

The 3 Moxen can only fix these if you have also an on-color card to spare. I'll sure have an eye on that topic

Not true, while it can produce the desired color – making a blue to filter as a colorless is still valuable opening up Volcanic Island/Underground Sea to tap for the appropriate color.

[Final Fortune]

Modular mana does not solve your problem of drawing a potential slow hand against Eidolon and Thalia. Adding this fact to the density of blue decks in the metagame, I don't see myself running "stockup" mana in the SB rather than strong MB mana and fixes for problematic matchups in the side.

Huh? It doesn't "solve" the problem of drawing a slow hand vs Eidolon or Thalia but it decreases the statistical likelyhood compared to cutting Chome Mox and playing 14+ lands. I don't expect any given card to solve any given problem, some times when you Thoughtseize they have 2 hate bears, that doesn't mean Thoughtseize's ability to discard creatures is irrelevant.

I don't see what match up Pithing Needle is "fixing," you guys are playing a lot of shit in your SBs these days that doesn't do much of anything other than take up space. Personally I'm happy to give Reanimator a favourable match up, if it means I can play a better deck vs the majority of Islands out there. If you want to ruin the fundamental turn of your MD in order to play cards you could've SB instead, that's your business I suppose.

[Tammit67]

My list:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstrom
4 Preordain

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine

SB:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past In Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacare
1 Temlin Performance
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor

4 Preordain and 0 Gitaxian probe?

[redhamjack]

Complete brainfart. I typed my post on our way home and I was extremely tired. Must have missed that before I posted. I actually run 4 probe, 0 preordain. I've edited my post. Sorry about that!

[Tammit67]

Complete brainfart. I typed my post on our way home and I was extremely tired. Must have missed that before I posted. I actually run 4 probe, 0 preordain. I've edited my post. Sorry about that!

Congrats on your day one performance, hope to see your name up there again at other events.

[itrytostorm]

Just the win/losses:

Grinder - Beat UR Delver twice with no siding (super easy), Enchantress on turn 1 and 2, then lost to Junk Stompy. Main deck Chalice and 3 ball got me.

Main Event - Bye, Lost to Merfolk with main deck chalice, beat Cheerio's, beat UR Delver, lost to Infect, lost to Reanimator, beat Dredge, lost to BUG Delver.

Win-a-box - Got in a pod with 3 UR Delver, Nic Fits, 2 Elves, Affinity so I was pretty happy. Rolled on Elves and Nic Fits, then "drew" with the UR Delver player with me getting 20 packs and the BS sleeves knowing he was a heavy underdog. Tried another one but lost to UR Delver.

I feel like a lot of the losses came from poor rips. Against infect and Reanimator I had them with 0 coutners and/or Xantid in play. Even with Iona in play I was live with the Chain in hand but couldn't draw a tutor for my life. Merfolk ripped running Cursecastcher, Chalice after I Probed and layed on Xantid. Overall I'm happy with how I played and may try out a Carpet of Flowers over a Needle. Keep storming, everyone :)

Ran the stock list:
Dig:
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm

Disruption:
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Tutors:
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

Mana:
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

"Finishers":
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Land:
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor

[Lemnear]

In my opinion, Goblins are fine on the play since Elves is a turn three deck. But you don't ever encounter hands where Mox allows you to cast Duress/Therapy on turn two and then win with the mana it generates? Because I do. I think you as well as some other people make Mox out to be a lot worse than it actually is. The card is fine, it's not fantastic but it's the best option we have.

Elves are able to shit out quite some blockers by turn 2 and run a combination of discard, MBT, Nullrod + NO->Ruric Thar postboard. EtW is not quite a win on the draw.

Sure I know the hands which have 7 mana, a duress and an Infernal/Wish. I'm just fed up to die in beauty if I don't have the nuts and my opponent is able to drag out the match for 2-4 turns because my hand does not contain 7+ mana, a Tutor/Wish and a protection-spell, because I can't ever catch up, if I have to 2-for-1 myself for the chrome mox. I know it's the best option for going for AN flips with zero floating, but I think we can run without it and still be the best AN deck

Chaining Tutors to win hasn't been much of an issue past turn three if need be, I don't see Sol Lands having a big influence there. Especially at the cost of making Ad Nauseam worse.

I put quite a lot of time into calculation to determine IF Ad Nauseam actually became worse and if you can float a single colored mana into AN and factor the extra cards you draw thanks to the removal of the 4cc card and the overall lowered cc, the result is unsurprisingly on par.

The Thalia argument is absurd since even with Sol Lands they don't generate enough mana to win through her anyway. Pierce is on the decline and we can help agains soft counters post-board with Carpet of Flowers.

It's not about winning through her; it's about being able to cantrip/Wish for solutions. With CoT, I can save the SB space for stuff like Carpet, don't have to bother getting hands on a green source, nor am required to play against at least two islands in play to have the same +2 manaboost CoT gives (however colorless)

There are games in which we don't draw the Chrome Mox/Empty the Warrens slot. This will hurt your Ad Nauseams, even with a slightly lowered curve (1 card from 4cmc to 0). There's a reason ANTs Ad Nauseams are worse and relying on four Lotus Petal is part of it.

ANT suffers because of their increased number of cantrips (to reveal) and additional 3-4cc cards they flip like PIF, ToA, Grim Tutor or the like.

Huh? It doesn't "solve" the problem of drawing a slow hand vs Eidolon or Thalia but it decreases the statistical likelyhood compared to cutting Chome Mox and playing 14+ lands. I don't expect any given card to solve any given problem, some times when you Thoughtseize they have 2 hate bears, that doesn't mean Thoughtseize's ability to discard creatures is irrelevant.

I don't see what match up Pithing Needle is "fixing," you guys are playing a lot of shit in your SBs these days that doesn't do much of anything other than take up space. Personally I'm happy to give Reanimator a favourable match up, if it means I can play a better deck vs the majority of Islands out there. If you want to ruin the fundamental turn of your MD in order to play cards you could've SB instead, that's your business I suppose.

Yeah Mox increases the possibility of T1/2 Goblins while CoT helps to recover from a landed Thalia game 1, then you did not had a clue that you needed to hold a very fast hand. Postboard is a totally different game as there are options like 2nd EtW from the SB, CoVs or other stuff against hatebears to consider.

"A lot of shit"? Decay, Needle, Xantid and CoV are "shit"? Have you noticed that we actually reduced the number of fancy 1-offs in the sideboard since we cutted Silence? I'm eager to hear your suggestions, if Needle on Griselbrand or SDT is such a bad play for your taste.

You need to realize, that the current structure of the metagame delayed our combo turn (especially Postboard) with the number of non-blue decks (our T1/2 combo prey) keeping to drop. What I consider relevant for the decks development is, that now more than 85% of decks we face either run Turn 1 discard (since Hymn got replaced by Thoughtseize in most BUG lists and give us less time to act) and/or free counterspells and I try to analyze how much those can delay us and how we can make up for the time our opponents gained. I'm no longer fine with focusing on a shrinking number of matchups and dedicating MB slots to them rather than SB slots. If CoT is the solution or if we pickup the Cabal Rituals again to play them alongside of Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame, does not change the direction I choose with the deck for the moment (as it still has much better ANs than ANT, still has more T1/2 combo-lines and still gives a fuck about DRS/RIP). Take this as a summary.

[Lemnear]

My dear friends, would you mind to list me your losses and reasons for them (details welcomed!) you suffered at the GP for my data collection? Thanks a lot

[Bryant Cook]

Elves are able to shit out quite some blockers by turn 2 and run a combination of discard, MBT, Nullrod + NO->Ruric Thar postboard. EtW is not quite a win on the draw.

Sure I know the hands which have 7 mana, a duress and an Infernal/Wish. I'm just fed up to die in beauty if I don't have the nuts and my opponent is able to drag out the match for 2-4 turns because my hand does not contain 7+ mana, a Tutor/Wish and a protection-spell, because I can't ever catch up, if I have to 2-for-1 myself for the chrome mox. I know it's the best option for going for AN flips with zero floating, but I think we can run without it and still be the best AN deck

Which is why I stated on the play - 12-16 Goblins on turn one should be Elves. We've also been discussing game one's this entire time, since your arguments have all been directed at them this entire time.

To use your argument with too many lands, "Just fix it with Brainstorm." shuffle those Chrome Moxes back. Late game Moxen still have value in being free storm counts if the mana off them isn't required to make the natural kill without an engine much easier. It's about being consistent and I don't believe we can do that with only four Petals and still be the best Ad Nauseam deck.

Let's create a situation:

You've used two Lotus Petals to power out Ad Nauseam and you're at sixteen life with nothing floating. Do you stop at eight against UR Delver because you're likely dead if your Ad Nauseam fails? Your list only makes Ad Nauseams, what if you've expended your resources? It's not a pretty picture.

I put quite a lot of time into calculation to determine IF Ad Nauseam actually became worse and if you can float a single colored mana into AN and factor the extra cards you draw thanks to the removal of the 4cc card and the overall lowered cc, the result is unsurprisingly on par.

I'm sure you have, like I stated all you did was change a 4cc to a 0. The problem is now your initial mana sources are unreliable and you won't always be able to float mana.

It's not about winning through her; it's about being able to cantrip/Wish for solutions. With CoT, I can save the SB space for stuff like Carpet, don't have to bother getting hands on a green source, nor am required to play against at least two islands in play to have the same +2 manaboost CoT gives (however colorless)

We can Wish/Cantrip without a colorless land in our deck that causes us to be worse in other match-ups. I'd rather have Carpet in my sideboard to make me better against taxing counters than ruin my maindeck. I consider taking away some of our strengths in being fast against certain match-ups, removing the Cabal Therapy synergies and color issues ruining our deck. We can fix these metagame issues with two sideboard slots - I'll do that.

ANT suffers because of their increased number of cantrips (to reveal) and additional 3-4cc cards they flip like PIF, ToA, Grim Tutor or the like.

But part of it is still relying on Lotus Petals as initial mana sources, we've all lost games with Ad Nauseam without ever revealing a 4cc card.


EDIT: I updated the opening post with my newest list and some of the content.

[redhamjack]

My dear friends, would you mind to list me your losses and reasons for them (details welcomed!) you suffered at the GP for my data collection? Thanks a lot

I my loss day 1 was to Sneak and Show. He won the die-roll, probes me, sees a hand with some potential, drops ancient tomb, lotus petal, and resolves show and tell into Emmy. He wins next turn.

Game 2 I'm on the play. Mull to 6, keep a hand with t2 potential but no protection. I shuffle away my ponder into nothing while he makes a t1 emmy. He has flusterstorm and force of will in hand.

At the very least this loss let me get food which wasn't afforded to slower players.

Day 2 I lose to R/U after stealing game 1. Games 2 and 3 he just had all the protection against me and played them well. He brought in a ton of cards and had way more counters than I had threats. My notes show me probing into Daze, Pierce, Pierce, Fow, Fow, Land. Just loaded on counters.

I also lost to dredge in tough games 2 and 3. I won die roll, went on the play and after a probe shows me what I'm against I tendrils t2. Game 2 he's on the play and has the luckiest dredges into therapies and narcomebias and bridges and just all of the things. Game 3 I'm on the play and keep a 6 card hand with everything but a win con (a brainstorm and a ponder though). Neither find me action and he gets me on his t3.

My final loss was to RWU. I won preboards, but post he had mages, pierces, forces, flusterstorms and too much hate for me to fight through. I was also pretty tilted at losing my previous two matches, which might have helped him.

[Lemnear]

I my loss day 1 was to Sneak and Show. He won the die-roll, probes me, sees a hand with some potential, drops ancient tomb, lotus petal, and resolves show and tell into Emmy. He wins next turn.

Game 2 I'm on the play. Mull to 6, keep a hand with t2 potential but no protection. I shuffle away my ponder into nothing while he makes a t1 emmy. He has flusterstorm and force of will in hand.

At the very least this loss let me get food which wasn't afforded to slower players.

Day 2 I lose to R/U after stealing game 1. Games 2 and 3 he just had all the protection against me and played them well. He brought in a ton of cards and had way more counters than I had threats. My notes show me probing into Daze, Pierce, Pierce, Fow, Fow, Land. Just loaded on counters.

I also lost to dredge in tough games 2 and 3. I won die roll, went on the play and after a probe shows me what I'm against I tendrils t2. Game 2 he's on the play and has the luckiest dredges into therapies and narcomebias and bridges and just all of the things. Game 3 I'm on the play and keep a 6 card hand with everything but a win con (a brainstorm and a ponder though). Neither find me action and he gets me on his t3.

My final loss was to RWU. I won preboards, but post he had mages, pierces, forces, flusterstorms and too much hate for me to fight through. I was also pretty tilted at losing my previous two matches, which might have helped him.

Thanks!

Just from your gut feeling: How many games did you steal with a T1/2 IT->EtW this weekend? How many games you played did go longer than your turn 3?

[redhamjack]

Thanks!

Just from your gut feeling: How many games did you steal with a T1/2 IT->EtW this weekend? How many games you played did go longer than your turn 3?

Actually quite a few, I'd say I won games with t1 warrens at least 8 or 9 times day 1. So many opponents were not prepared for it game 1, and I even stole a couple of game 2s and 3s with it. I was always worried about pyroclasm and friends but nobody seemed to have them. I am leery of going for goblins game 2 after stealing a game 1 with it because I fear people bring in hate for that plan, but maybe I'm overestimating the depth of folk's sideboards.

I've seen the discussion in here about going for EtW against elves, and I won two games against two elves players with the red men, but I always had cabal therapy support. Without therapy I wouldn't want to go for 12 goblins t1.

As far as the number of games that went past t3, I'd say a few of my games went longer than t3. I won 3 or 4 with 3 lands in play, but I also lost a few, maybe 3 on saturday, and 6 on Sunday :( that went long and my attrition couldn't keep up.