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Thread: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

  1. #8701

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    In the dark I lead discard off of Swamp turn 1. It hurts more to get chaliced than to blow a discard spell early against decks with counter spells. Info is always good.

    That said, If the fetch is my only land and my hand also has a cantrip it's harder. In that case it's pretty much out of question to fetch Swamp and risk not drawing a blue land soon. In that case you have to weigh the chance to get wasted against the chance to get chaliced. I'll usually Ponder off of USea turn 1 as a default there.

    Unfortunately I don't think it's viable to play Island, Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame in the same deck. Our sisters with 4 Cabals over Rites can afford anything up to 4 Basics if they want to, but I don't think TES can afford even just a single land that makes neither R nor B.

    I also miss Therapy's power with Probe, but it's time to move on imo. I also wouldn't say Therapy is particularly better against control than the other discard spells, because as a matter of fact the card is weak against the card Brainstorm as such. If you Probed someone and saw a Brainstorm your CT was often useless. Duress/Seize is always good.

    As someone who's been playing both Storm variants over the years I do admit I'm off of Rite of Flame at the moment, because EtW is worse than it used to be and Ad Nauseam as the only reliable / fast kill con is something I'm not very comfortable with. With DRS gone the maindeck low-resource PiF loop of ANT is also stronger than ever. I still play Burning Wishes because as such I like TES's options over ANT's linear nature, but I don't currently like Rite and EtW, which may just be due to the current meta being pretty hostile towards our mana base and/or EtW being weak.

    TES has moved more towards a pseudo Belcher-esque gameplan to combat the meta from what I understand watching Bryant and others' latest videos. And for that gameplan durdling with one-off Preordains, Islands and Cabal Rituals over the full set of Moxen and such doesn't seem the best.

  2. #8702

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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  3. #8703

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelikanudo View Post
    @wonderPreaux, F.Fortune and who wants to join:

    I've had bad experiences my last 2 torunamnets with TES sadly...
    I really don't spend much time lately playing MTG...

    I think the main issue I am facing is the absent of GP. I mean, at its simplest:

    Now I really don't know if it is good to fire a discard or ponder or just wait... or even landing a land if it is my unique one in hand!
    there are a lot of casuistics that I just can't handle well enough. I mean I can play duress off a land and then wastelanded - loose or I can just do not play duress and loose equally because of cahlice next turn, the same applyes to cantrips, etc.

    So I think I definitaly need to change my mana base to one with fetches and swamp.
    Also I've been hating quite a lot playing 4 CM, 3 has always been a number I've been happy with. Ialso see that sometimes 8 discard are too many, however I miss a lot the CT power... Ideally I would love toplay 7 discard and 3CT 4 TS. and really don't know how it will perform, but vs control decks CT is just better, not vs Combo/chalice.

    Having in mind this list: which seems to be the staple - mine is the same but the manabase. and -1 EtW +1 duress.
    I've been thinking in:
    -1 CM +1 CR
    -1 Duress + 1 preordain
    -3 Duress +3 CT - dont know on this... but 3 CT stay in my side no mater what.

    I really think that 1 CR instead of CM is fine now I play 8 fetches, 1 preordain I think is fine also instead of 8th discard - it could be EtW as 10th threat but having so much fetches and CR and 1 less CM seems like the proper replace. maybe 2nd EtW is the right call... + 4 CM.

    and the manabase exact as you wPreaux!
    related to your manabase, I'd like you to ask:
    which is the need to play 2 swamps? why do you prefer it to 2nd USea or 9th fetch? - this was going to be my fetch manabase same but -2nd swamp +2nd USea.
    However I think I would like 10 outs to a swamp 1st turn.
    I think I could play Island, but it makes sense in a more cantrip focused build like 2 preordain and 2 CR, and apart of that - well you know my feelings on island.

    which are your opinions on this?

    Alright, so there's a lot in this post, I guess I'll take it point by point.

    Turn 1 Discard Vs. Cantrips

    Generally speaking, I don't try to play the most protectionist route when I'm playing, I think the aim should be to evaluate the hand and see which path sets you up best to win the game.

    Now, I think the most difficult considerations are on the blind, as a lot of the dynamics become clear once you know the opposing archetype. So, let's say I'm on the play, against an unknown opponent with, let's say, the option of a turn 1 Thoughtseize or Ponder. Which do I play?

    I'd first consider the rest of my hand -- do I need time or is there a chance to go off? If my hand is Ponder, Thoughtseize, land, but then the other 4 cards are Petal x2 and LED x2, I'd probably jam Ponder and dig for a turn 1 win. Not only do I have all my business spells as outs, but that hand doesn't offer a superb long game anyway. If, however, the other 4 cards were land x2, another cantrip, and another discard spell, I might use the discard spell first to insure a Chalice, Hymn, Counterbalance, or opposing combo doesn't wreck me while I hit the land drops and resolve my cantrips.

    Now, when your hand isn't that polarized, you have to look at finer nuances. Like, if I know, Wasteland or not, that I need to find one or more lands, or a business spell, I might play the cantrip right away so it won't get Daze'd or Pierced. A discard spell in that case would be more like "playing to not lose", since you might stop the opponent's threat, but you could get stranded hoping to draw off the top to get a chance to resolve your cantrip. I'd rather "play to win" by setting up the initial mana source or business spell. You'd don't always need the discard spell to win, after all, whereas you always need mana and a threat.

    Additionally, you can consider the play pattern of your hand. For example, if you instead had Duress + Brainstorm, you may want to play Duress first before they play their only spell (like, say a Ponder of their own), and then have the follow-up of Brainstorm + fetch the next turn (gotta love that Underground Sea + Badlands opener).

    Cabal Ritual / Preordains
    I don't much like these cards at all, Cabal Ritual is a pseudo-non-combo with Chrome Mox (as is Past in Flames, which I feel is a miserable maindeck choice), and Preordain is not quite as good in this deck that looks to go off around half a turn faster than ANT.

    I think Chrome Mox is very underrated by a lot of players. Granted, I draw 2 of them more times than I want to think about, but the ability to lock in the second color of initial mana and Ad Nauseam from low life totals while allowing and facilitating multiple EtW is just too good to pass up. One of the big things people noticed in storm, broadly, is the speed loss from the Probe ban as ANT lost easy Threshold and TES lost easy storm count and info for the EtW all-ins. The 4th Chrome Mox and, in my case, 2nd MD EtW over the 8th discard spell are ways to get the speed up, still consistently hit Ad Nauseams, and improve the fundamental proficiency of this deck -- explosive, threat-dense gameplay backed by stabler, more consistent infrastructure than the glass cannon decks.

    My previous and current list, and various remarks there-in
    So I see the list you posted there is one of my lists from the challenge a couple weeks ago. I've since revised the list based on some more testing. For reference, here's what I'm currently testing:

    I want to comment on some of the non-standard choices, as I think they might make for good discussion overall.

    2 Maindeck EtW
    I consider this the TES equivalent of ANT's 2nd PiF. Both are taking the place of an 8th discard spell that often ends up in the sideboard, and both are red spells that indirectly beat counter-magic, increase threat density, and hurt your Ad Nauseams a bit. I think it's a worthwhile addition, as the tactic overall works better in TES -- we can Wish for the sideboard Duress in some matchups, and having an extra EtW turns hands that are all mana/discard into wins, wheres ANT still needs to find a Tutor or get lucky on cantrips. Moreover, the matchups where the 2nd EtW is dead weight don't really challenge your life total too badly (combo matchups have your life at effectively "high" or "basically dead" a lot of the time), so I haven't had a lot of Ad Nauseam troubles or anything.

    Diminishing Returns
    In the list you posted, I had this taking the place of Dark Petition, as I was often siding out an Infernal Tutor to make room for Pyroblasts against Blue, but I found the blind-spot against Show-and-Tell decks to be too irksome, so I'm running Diminishing Returns and Dark Petition in the sideboard. The reason for this is to make Burning Wish more powerful against Black-based combo and other incidental situations where Burning Wish isn't too great (for instance, against Bojuka Bog/Tabernacle that Rotate in to blunt Dark Petition and EtW). In this way, I fell like I can more effectively utilize Wish, as the idea that you'd try to just use it to find PiF is too narrow and you often can't afford to leave Duress in the sideboard against combo like Reanimator. I think, among the blue wishes like Bibery or Telemin Performance, Diminishing Returns is the best one at keeping Wish's value as a threat against the combo decks that can make it lack-luster by beating EtW and it's been the driving reason why I use it and Void Snare over Grapeshot and a removal slot. My Burning Wishes are high-utility cards that I can confidently move into any matchup.

    4 EtW in the 75
    I like these as the most convenient and comfortable option agaisnt the UBx/URx spectrum of tempo/midrange decks. You can also do trick-plays against Miracles where you bring Ghirapurs and then, once they have single target removal in and ready, you pivot to all EtW and grind them out with waves of 4-8 Goblins (YMMV, pivot with caution).

    Pyroblasts/Hope of Ghirapur
    I was testing Pyroblast as a disruptive combo of Pyroblast + EtW waves against Miracles, while using Pyroblast as disruption against combo decks' cantrips or headliner Show and Tell. I liked this a bit as I didn't like how poorly Hope of Ghirapur interacts when Shown in, you have to proactively play it instead, or how an opponent could just play Counterblance in response to Hope and lock me out. The idea was that Pyroblast could beat a counter or solve the Counterbalance/Show and Tell problem. In practice, though, I ran into the very obvious dis-synergy of playing countermagic in my Infernal Tutor/LED deck, so, I'm all in on Hope of Ghirapur now. Perhaps a split is worth considering, but I'll get to that later on.

    When it comes to 2 Swamp, the question is something like why Basics > why 2 Basics > why 2 Swamp? I like having minimum 1 Basic, as sometimes you want to get a land on the board for a discard spell and then go off next turn, so the basic Swamp is easy to justify at the start. However, with Ghost Quarter, Assassain's Trophy, the occaisional Veteran Explorer, and the ever-present Daze, the 1st Basic land is easy to justify, and it can be good to have a 2nd Basic land. In my case, I found I always wanted Swamp -- it enables all the plays I want most, threats and protection. Too often, I'd need a third land to play Echoing Truth through Sphere/Thalia and would lose a land anyway, so why not lose the blue source and guarantee I have a black source through Ghost Quarter or Rishaden Port? It's really silly to me playing a Basic land that just ends up being Darksteel Citadel on the combo turn when the whole point is to consistently get Red + Black. With two Swamp, I can still search blue sources for bounce, but I can also setup plays like discard spell + Dark Ritual in response to Spell Pierce, all on Basics. I also never have to worry about Port or Ghost Quarter cutting me off my business color. I figure, there's a more consistent need to resolve critical or numerous series of black spells, so the 2nd Swamp is better overall.

    I haven't missed Basic Island in over a hundred matches without it. This latest mana base might be too low in blue sources, though, only having two physical Islands with 8 fetches, but I wanted 3 physical Mountains for Pulverize, and 2nd Volcanic Island was pretty middling. If I find I don't have enough blue sources, I might switch back from 2nd Badlands to 2nd Volcanic Island, or consider a 2nd Underground Sea over the 8th fetch or, perhaps, 2nd Swamp.

    I hope that helps give you some pointers, hopefully spurs everyone to keep giving the deck some attention. I've been having a great time playing TES and feeling pretty excited about testing this new build.

  4. #8704

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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  5. #8705

  6. #8706

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Hey Guys!
    In the SB guide on (which is GREAT btw) Goblins seems to be treated as a hatebear deck which Iím sure exist. The guide advises for bounce and a tendrils empty swap.
    Our local Goblin hero, however, plays a black splash, (which i believe is superior btw) givning him access Discard and the almighty Earwig squad. Since he has a powerful etb effect boucing him is the last i want to do.
    How would you guys board here? I opted to board nothing so that opponent couldnít exile tendrils and i rather kept duress to nab Thoughtseize surgical and the possible mindbreak traps.
    Has anyone given any thought to this? I appreciate the help

  7. #8707
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Has anyone given any thought to this? I appreciate the help
    I dont see a reason to board. Its a deck you have to race - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

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  8. #8708

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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  9. #8709

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I dont see a reason to board. Its a deck you have to race

  10. #8710

  11. #8711

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I dont see a reason to board. Its a deck you have to race
    As someone who has frequently tested RB Goblins with discard I would agree with this
    Boarding duress to hit the opp's thoughtseize doesn't make sense and the black splash versions basically never play mindbreak

  12. #8712

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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Does anyone remember the 75 for the list that played Cable Ritual and 1 Infernal Tutor in the board? A page number would be just as appreciated.

  13. #8713

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    3 Gemstone Mine
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island

    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Dark Ritual

    3 Infernal Tutor
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Duress
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Ad Nauseam

    1 Bayou
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Xantid Swarm
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Void Snare
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Massacre
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Past in Flames

    The deck is in a state of flux, there isn't much point in spending a ton of time constantly rewriting the opening post.

    I'd much rather see Treasure Cruise than either of the other two cards.
    IIRC, it was something close to this with -1 Chrome Mox and discard spell for 1-2 Cabal Rituals, didn't dig around too much but the variants of this list came about around Q4'2014 before Cruise was added to the SB to replace Tutor and then Petition replaced Cruise.

    NVM, it was summer of '14, my memory is bad, here's another list:

    Also, for the two slots, depending on whose list you look at, it was 2 Cabal Rits out of 3rd Mox, 4th Wish, 13th land, or 7th discard, exact configs subjects to change.

  14. #8714
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Very close indeed. I really liked that list and it won me some money, so I remember.
    Short version: -1 Mine, -1 Mox, -1 EtW, +1 dual, +2 Cabal Ritual. Also I think we ran 4x Duress back then.

    Full list:
    2 Gemstone Mine
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Bayou /13

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Infernal Tutor
    1 Ad Nauseam /20

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Rite of Flame
    2 Cabal Ritual /20

    4 Duress
    3 Cabal Therapy /7

    My sideboard was a tad different from Bryant's, and I don't remember exactly what I played.
    At least a few Abrupt Decays to battle all the CounterTops that were running rampant, and also I ran 2-3 Xantid Swarm I think.

  15. #8715

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Has anyone been playing with the new list that has 2 mox opal in it?

    I've tested it with proxies myself, but I'm curious on others opinions before i decide to actually buy them lol.


  16. #8716

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by mewanyk View Post
    Has anyone been playing with the new list that has 2 mox opal in it?

    I've tested it with proxies myself, but I'm curious on others opinions before i decide to actually buy them lol.

    Tried it in the last challenge, every time I saw Opal I was happy to see it. 2 seems to be the sweet spot, since it was very smooth for me as far as not drawing multiples and being able to manage enabling the 1 I might see. Bryant's been having an altogether positive experience with it too, from his posted leagues and such.

    Edit: My Opals just arrived in the mail today, if that's also a recommendation to you

  17. #8717

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by mewanyk View Post
    Has anyone been playing with the new list that has 2 mox opal in it?

    I've tested it with proxies myself, but I'm curious on others opinions before i decide to actually buy them lol.

    You should check out Bryants latest youtube video, match3 game3 versus Grixis D where he (spoiler!) tendrils with discard protection on turn 1 on the back of opals. Looked powerful to me.

    I like this more moderate list (with a full playset of RoF and no ghirapurs main) a lot. Iím very reluctant spending money on Opals though because i think the art is ugly. :(

  18. #8718
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm


    I wanted to answer you,but had no time.
    thanks for your insight wejust share opinions and that is something Ialwayslove.

    I really thought from thebeginning of the banning of GP, that a list with 2 EtW and 7 disruption and 4 CM 14 lands was going to be the staple and I really believe that likely those numbers are the right thing in the meta - you don't loose too much speed and things like that.
    But the speed exist alwaysin a context - mymain concern are the S&T match ups which Iam facing toomuch and EtW does not do much - now less with no therapy and as always EtW is great for 1st games but for 2nd and 3rd games is not always that great and just feel that sometimes in certain matchupsjust EtW is dead as hellthats why I don't want to play morethan 1.Ialsoprefer tohave other lines - itisfine the belchermode - but don'twant to be advocated to commit that line. Sure full EtW is fine for 2nd and 3rd math ups and that is another story.

    related to what to do in 1st turn - well I've changed my manabase to fetch and seems logical those lines.

    related to the mabase - now I've been on 2 swmps - one of them snow to see the implications of drawing it over a U.Sea. but I must disagree on 2 swamps 2 badlands and 1 volcanic.
    fetch to swamp is now an staple play and the next land you want to draw after this is V.Island no matter what, even if it is wastelanded. Even if you want to play ponder, VIsland will be the land you'll fetch most of the times, as black is the manasource you are going to more likelyto draw. so with 2 swamps 2 v.island seem to be the correct choice even I dislike volcanic as the worst card in the deck likely- playing only 10 bue producers seems to me quite risky - by the moment I am at same manabase as yours with 2 swamps2volcaninc1 sea 1 badlands and by the moment the 2nd swamp didnt cause me too much troubles....still evaluating...

    related to preordain / cRit - well I also dislike these cards in TES too but I think on terms on 5th ponder and 5th long term LED and - yes - i - dislike no - hate- drawing multiples Mox - I would play 4 mox if I would play 2nd EtW main and as said likely this is the correct move - but i dont want to be advocated to some too much linear lines.
    thats why I am on 1 preordain 1 cRit and am not dissapointed about that - those are cards that ANT play and likely the next cards TES can play and now that there is no DRS we can take advantage of more CRit lines with PiF or like - this is joke as I only play 1, but I 've been also evaluating to make more use of CRit like old TES lists with 2CRit - that is not a bad card at all!

    I am playing no matter what 3 therapy side, and really don't understand why people dont play at least 1,it issuch a strong card and beatifull card to play...

    @to whom may interest: related to new list with Opal:

    It is always curious to me that always new decks of TES shows up with - apparently new tests done - and arguing that maybe it is a good idea and that it is INNOVATING - and that by here people don't innovate - when this is completly false and I dare to say that this is backwards. but the reallity is that I was the first man that tried an TES opal list 5 years ago and concluded some things, there it goes if may help to develop those "new" TES lists - I believe TES Team used my finding 5 years ago to develop that super new opal list, well, that or they reached my same conclusions..., well not the same because they finally play them in their lists and I don't!:

    - Opal needs 2 more artifacts in order to not to be dead - so you can use it in the combo turn only or when you have landed 2 artifacts means vs discard is bad because you need to land those artifacts before some are discarded. a total of 12 artifacts are really not enough to support opals.
    - you can choose to play 4 opal but you'll need to determine to play RoF or not, then you can play less opals - if the number is not 4, then 1 or 2 is the correct number, but again the impact can be huge.
    - you need to play 4 CM if you play OPal - thing I dislike because you sometimes for 2nd and 3rd games want to side out 1 cmox.
    - it makes non sense to play 13 lands - sure playing 2 opals and expecting to be .5 land... because they sometimes are DEAD - this is arguable - but come on - 1 island among those 13 lands...? if you assume that opal is .5 land then when that occurs, you'll need to play LED andpetal tojust play a misserable ponder?
    - if finally you determine to play opals, then DU is a card to have in mind, I would play that card with 4 cmox.
    - the most important thing to me to not to play opals is that sometimes is dead, which is something that does not occur with NONE of the TES base cards (remember thatoccurred 1 time with that RoF from Lem list...). that is important to me when building TES,as TES simply does not play dead cards unless they are disuption or threats.
    - having cards in TES that depends on other cards to acomplish its function is just shit. having a card that depends on 2 more artifact cards to provide you 1 mana is nonsense in TES unless: a) you really have so many artifacts that this dependency does not affect to the statics of providing 1 mana b) you play 0 or 1 copies - preferably 0 copies.

    Iam more likelydone with TES in this new meta which likely is 2 EtW 4 CM or things like 2 or 1 cRit and 1 preordain and things like this. sure sometimes I just go back to silence genstomes lists because i really enjoy playing nostalgic lists... likely my next list will be 3 silence 4 tseize 2 EtW 4 old TES manabase consisting on 2 cob 4 gemstome and 4 cmox. but now I am investigating the CRit lines like old 2 CRitlists sometime ago were played.

    @final Fortune:
    how are youdoing with your TES list man? long time ago we don't hear about you!
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  19. #8719

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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  20. #8720

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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