Togores:Originally Posted by Togores
Sad that silence left the deck T_T
Was one of my favourite cards. I will test the new deck and see if I find the discard better. But I think not playing silence we just lose to senseis divining top and this card is in a ton of decks. And discard dont get rid of a taxes hand of doublé hatebear.
Lets see what time says.
I've always knew that Silence < Discard in at least our Spanish meta, just keep on playing the silence TES list as a pet deck, I just love the card...
I just ask myself if TES decks will put up their numbers in top 8 from now on...only time will let us know this. I believe so!!!
I'll test the Final Fortune List with 11 lands and 4 moxen with 3 T.Seize, I'm not saying it is his list, as my Black TES list is like Bryant except -1T.Seize + 1 Duress. but I like again the 4moxen approach, maybe i stop playing when I see that moxen are drew in excess, as there is no worse hand in TES that the one which is not able to win in 1st turn and has any number of Moxen in it...
please feel free to email me to agree on Strategies on how to side so that we both have a common testing grid with TES in our so hostile meta, last time I made 5-2!!!
@F.F. I'll email you to see strategies on how to side.... this new list seems the perfect one to handle my so hostile meta....
SP Meta for reference: http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index...c,15793.0.html (5-2 ou yeah in here!!! will win now with T.Seizes!!)
Related to T.P. vs Bribery, because of results from Bryant seems Telemins better on averge, but not sure, by the moment I've been testing bribery for a while and wasn't bad. I also liek to avoid scenarios like happend to Bryant....
@Lem:
I would not play I.Unbound in the 75, just 1 DD in side, for those cases in which you have to go off at a low total life and dont want to give the oponent his fows back ups... as we talked before, there are scenarios which are perfectly handled by the Brainstorm piles and the unique need is to have any number in cards in hand plus a cantrip. I find now that we don't have silence any engine too win but with no gy dependancy and no IGG effect like D.R.; DD provides us this, but not sure if this is really needed, it doesn't seem a deck like TES need this...
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Honestly my SBing plan is -1 Infernal Tutor for +1 Pyroblast for any UW deck and for any other aggro-control deck -1 Infernal Tutor for +1 discard, vs Show&Tell and Reanimator it's -4 discard, -1 Infernal Tutor for +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Tropical Island.
I don't think BUG is a bad match up, it feels favourable to me because Hymn to Tourach is slower than Thoughtseize.
The list I've been playing against have both at a 3 Hymn/2 Seize split backed by Force/Daze/Wasteland (paired with Deathrite at times). We're not always on the play, getting Hymn-d happens. It's either that or always have a turn one while they don't have Force of Will.
Wow. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But it's all good, because the format is cyclical. I'm sure the next TNN will trigger more changes
More discard makes sense at this point. Maybe we should call everything Storm since they're all variations of each other, whether it's ANT or TES. I mean, ANT decks Empty the Warrens too, right?
I say "stay the same" because 3 years ago I was experimenting around with a 3 color TES build that was suggested on the storm boards. I was playing Swamp and Badlands and upping the Thoughtseize count. Of course, Gitaxian Probe wasn't a thing back then, and I was rocking maindeck Tendrils, but still. Was also playing Pulverize in the board because Decay didn't exist yet. Good times.
Nostalgia aside, it might be time to give this new configuration a spin. I just need to tell some of the locals to stop playing RUG and get with the program.
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Yeah, I'm not saying that Hymn to Tourach isn't a problem I'm saying Hymn to Tourach gives us more of a chance than Thoughtseize does to either go off or discard their disruption before they can cast it. I think Force of Will, Daze, Thoughtseize is > than Force of Will, Daze, Hymn to Tourach and UBWg is a worse match up than BUG for us because of faster disruption, Batterskull and hate bear., I have a really good record vs BUG, I don't fear any aggro-control deck that doesn't play white at this point.
I also pondered about grimtutor in the sideboard like ANT does to get an extra copy of "demonic tutor"(sometimes ant plays burning wish which is horrible in my opinion)
I like the Deck alot,the only thing i really dislike is the weakness of the rituals and rites,it's really hard to win via Past in Flames or Tutor Chaining.
If a game tends to go grindy and our life total goes down we are on a tough spot.
I know TEs is a superbroken deck if it goes ad nauseam from a high life total during turn 1-3 but in the lategame neither ad nauseam nor empty the warrens work.
Is there anything we can change to improve the pif,strategy?
Maybe cutting 1-2 Chrome Moxes for cabal rituals or something like that?
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I just think that's the nature of the beast, game 1 is rarely as grindy as games 2/3 in my experience because you have the advantage of expecting blue decks while they have the disadvantage of not knowing whether or not they should mulligan to Force of Will etc. After that you have Infernal Tutor in your SB for the rest of the match so SBing Grim Tutor seems like a waste of space, and the 4th Chrome Mox while annoying reduces your average life total for going off with Ad Nauseam and increases your win% off of Diminishing Returns.
I think a lot of the time it just comes down to D.Rit and pray.
When I say "a lot has to go right" i don't mean it in a "i'm winning already" kind of way, i mean it more like "I must have had some significant tool to get me here". Since I was advocating for Xantid Swarm, which is good at getting me to that point without getting countered. Your build leans very heavily on Xantids as it is, so you get options like Tutoring for Ad Nauseam at similar mana cost to Wishing for Bribery, and you may even be able to land Diminishing Returns. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the most prominent issue with reanimator seems to be the counters since they can Grisel into them on my turn and they tend to play more counters than discard, though I can't exactly write-off the threat of discard.
I feel like that would just slow down the deck and make it like an odd Burning ANT variant. If you envisioned a bell-curve for each decks fundamental turn, ANT's would probably center around 3.5, they rarely get 1st turn kills, and 2nd kills might come up, but Cabal Ritual is a fundamentally slower card, so they are better suited to a protracted game. TES's bell-curve centers at around 2.5-3.0, but to achieve that you play cards like Chrome Mox and Gemstone Mine which gives us a lot of freedom to string a combo together, but ofc a longer game is going to be more difficult. It isn't impossible to win a long game, though, Bryant Cook's tourney reports have some good examples of very long games, but I think this deck is just really poorly-suited to a grindy game.
@Sawatrix:
do not play Grim Tutor in the 75 in TES, I tested it, it is a s***.
Also ANT-3 B.W. is not a horrible deck, at least in the opinión of 2 of the 3 known storm players from our meta think its the perfect storm deck for this specific meta.
@F.Fortune:
@Bryant
I've played some games with the 4 moxen list. really didnt tested any important macth up, all won (Miracles 1-1 - didn't finish the last one, BG Discard, Gobs, no BUG)
related to BUG Tempo etc. : What I felt is that is sometimes invitable to go to the long game, they play several pieces of disruption, so sometimes the best play for them is to take out a Brainstorm and let you at the top deck mode with that C.Moxen as an scenario example. In my experience you just play Raw power vs Raw power and finally win, and this means no moxen and no RoF = more Lands C.Rit., but this is other list.
So taking in consideration the F.Fortune list I would side: -1C.Mox,-1Gitaxian = +1 Tropical+1Inquisition.
3 C.Moxen in base is enough even if we want to have chances of a winning the game quick, thing I don't expect.
we are replacing 1Gitaxian for 1 Inqusiton it is a Show effect like IoK and is a .5 Land. and at top deck we absolutly want Ponder over Gitaxian.
The thing is that there is a great difference between on the draw or on the play, as it seems you want the most odds of winning on the play, rather than fight fire with fire? I really think that the statistics dictates that on the draw you should also to side like this as you don't want C.Mox and prefer Ponder over gitaxian as you'll need to finally fight fire wit fire.
I think this is what I'd do vs BUG, not sure on the play i'd just play the initial list,but dnt think so. any tests done on this?
@F.Fortune
For what I've seen about the list is that Xantid is still weak vs Reanimator and the new setting for our TNT deck is to play 3 more discard effects in side and surgical, I only think that Xantid is needed vs Leyline but if we don't expect it, Xantid is perfectly questionable, I've been thinking in using some how the pyoblast plus surgical to win the omni+Leyline match up, but really I dont expect too much this, I've been thinking in surgical also to use it vs miracles as an alternate to leave the counter on top.! maybe the mixed set up side from Bryant is the correct...
My points of view to be debated:
a) Xantid is not as good vs reanimator, if we go in the disruption route, why are we make a stansdtill with Xantid instead of use surgical for this or just more discard?
b) Xantid is good vs S&T, I agree because even they have no Leyline, its is slower than Renimator, this will be the unique reason to play Xantid. Again, the conjuntion of pyros plus even more discard will win us the game in a same manner, at least guarrenteed with other Storm Deck versions.
b) Xantid can't be sided in vs Miracles, Surgical will help us on sticking both, full of c.b. discard OR respond to a fetch ability. So discard plus pyros plus Surgical should be enough.
@Lem and Bryant and Royce:
The second Volcanic has been good or prefer a CoBrass instead? When I played versions of TES I finally left the 1CoB as wanted still 10 Green mana sources post board.
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The second Volc has been great, I think one time I've had a problem with it not making black mana, but other than that it's all upside. You are really required to play a Trop if you cut Cities though, having 4 fetches + Trop + Gemstones to make a turn 1 Xantid or turn 2 Decay postboard is really important. The Trop is pretty good in general though, boarding out a Mox for a Trop is what you want to be doing in almost every matchup, as the games 2/3 are generally slower.
Also I'm baffled by the idea that Deathblade is a worse matchup than BUG Delver. Hymn makes playing a long game so much harder, and having extra free counters makes it less likely that you're going off before Hymn happens.
Might depend on what version of Deathblade people are playing against you, those decks very much play Daze in my experience.
AN from 8-10 is pretty reasonable and can get you there quite often in my experience. Pif is still reasonable late game, you don;t generate buckets of mana like ANT. sacrifices and timing on engines i guess.
ANT uses PiF better and TES uses AN better, they can use the other but they are not as effective. pick your primary and realize the other will most likely be worse due to time in the game the engines are most effective. there may be a middle ground somewhere but i am not sure what it is.
I've considered a more Hybrid list with two Cabal Ritual over a Chrome Mox and the Duress in my list. I haven't tested it, mainly due to concept theory in that we're not a turn three deck. Rarely will we have Threshold and the lack of Moxen will smake our Empty/Ad Nauseams worse. I might be worth looking into, but I doubt it will test successfully. I could easily see one over the Duress slot, but we would really like a second for Infernal Tutor possibilities, that's where I find trouble finding a slot to shave.
I'm going test TEs with 2 cabal rituals in the main tomorrow in a local event,hope i succeed and then i'll give a dhort report on that.
It's mainly because of PIF
Which is very hard to execute with only a few week rites.
Having a lategame plan whih is not life-total dependent seems good here.
Concerning the manabase,why are still gemstone mines in the deck?
We can arrange a land-base with only duals and fetchlands (-> to improve cantrips.I've seen that marcelo65 replaced a brainstorm with a serum vision because of the lands and the lack of shuffle-effects)
He has to be a genius somehow.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
We still need green mana for cards out of the sideboard, not to mention that Badlands sucks really badly. Not being able to cast your cantrips is awful, this is a twelve land deck. You're going to open hands that are Badlands + 2 blue cantrips.
I recommend against cutting the mox, to be honest, I'd rather see an Infernal pushed to the sideboard (Albiet this lowers consistency for game 1 - it does allow Wish-> Tutor-> Ad Nauseam).
I'm not talking about badlands butmore fetchlands and more underground seas,here an example that i can imagine right now:
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Raunforest
3 Scalding Tarn
An underground sea could be replaced by tropical island in postboard games if decay is needed.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
You can run whatever you'd like, I'm still happy with Gemstones. I'll let you know if that changes.
I actually really like this. I had the same idea a few months back, but never tried it and decided to keep it to myself as to not get flamed for cutting Silence. Maybe you could get away with 2 U. Sea and 1 Trop, freeing up a sideboard slot in the process.
The fact is, having extra fetchlands makes your Brainstorms and Ponders MUCH better with little downside.
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Amazing how peeps forget that this is a deck with only 12 lands and therfore these lands have to produce various color over several turns. Show me alternatives to being able to produce green for SB cards, enabling cantrips turn 1, demolish opponents hand with discard and being able to feed Rite of Flame without having to control 2 or 3 lands and we can talk about those.
This deck does not always have the pleasure to get 3 out of 12 lands into play without being molested by Wasteland so you can cast all spells. There is sadly no alternative to goldlands for having that color flexibility the deck needs in early turns with limited IMS'
Having to fetch a T1 Tropical is like the worst you can do to this deck and your own following turns
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I agree with Lemnear here. If you want to go Duals and Fetch only, you should drop green.
But I feel the current meta needs green for Swarms and Decay.
Some time ago, I tried Duals and Fetch only (no green in board), and I was satisfied with how it played out.
But that was in a meta with lots of Canadian Thresh and Jund. Or so I thought. I had to play two mirrors...
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