[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

If I were to try that approach it would be this:

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Ad Nauseam

[Pilhas]

Thoughts on running a grapeshot in the SB? Since that list relies so much on empty it seems like a good fit

[Bryant Cook]

New article: http://www.theepicstorm.com/flex-spo...ndecisiveness/

[Jordon-mtg]

Hey guys! So I just made top 8 of the legacy classic again playing TES. So I'm 2 for 2! Lost to the MUD player twice, once in swiss and again in top 8. Really hard to beat chalice for 1 on turn one and trinisphere turn two every game :(

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=98017

[Bryant Cook]

We congratulated you in the Facebook group, either way, well done!

[Gikkman]

The EPIC Storm's homepage seems to be down (for me at least). Does anyone have the hybrid list readily available? I can't recall it 100%

[Pilhas]

Played my first tournament with TES (12people 5 rounds) and ended up first(tiebreakers) :)

Went with this list:


4x Burning Wish
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame

1x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

1x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

1x Ad Nauseam
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual


Sideboard (15)

4x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Dark Petition
2x Dread of Night
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Massacre
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Void Snare


I will only talk about the sideboard since I can't recall most of the games

R1 RUG Delver 2-0
SB: None

R2 UR Delver(With the new 2CMC prowess guy) 2-1(Combo over Eidolon in second and third game)
SB(Game 2) +2 Chains -1 Probe -1 Ponder
(Game 3 after I saw Eidolons) -1 Ponder +1 Grapeshot

R3 Oops All Spells(With the new 2CMC prowess guy) 0-2
SB(Game 1) +2 Chains -2 Ponder

R4 Sneak and Show (With the new 2CMC prowess guy) 2-1
SB(Game 1) +2 Chains -2 Ponder

R5 Miracles 1-0(Ended in turnsof second game, I was dead on board after tendrils leaving him to 1)
SB(Game 1) +1 Tendrils +4 Decay -1 Chrome Mox -1 Rite of Flame -1 Ponder -1 Gitaxian Probe


Thoughts:

• Grapeshot was awesome to close out games
• Think I should have brought the PiF against Miracles to become more Grindier
• Felt helpless against Oops. Is that normal?
• Missed Xantid in the S&S matchup
• Have no ideia of the SB I am doing
• Missed the second Chrome mox, but got cut for the Bayou to make space for the Grapeshot

Any comment and help with the sideboards are greatly appreciated.

[LDX]

Your maindeck has 59 cards, and you said you didn't play a second Chrome Mox. What were you playing in that spot?

[Pilhas]

the 2nd chrome mox was cut for the Bayou.
Card missing is a Duress.

[LDX]

Ok. I'm done with Shattering Spree. Meta is still infested with Chalice of the Void, but too many times I can't even cast a proper, good Shattering Spree because I lack red mana.

I thought Lotus Petal would be often but people are catching up, they first cast at 0, then at 1. It leaves me only with a Volcanic and a Badlands to use the replicate, so yeah, it's not working.

What are the options?

Abrupt Decay
That's implying I can get a green mana. Most of the times, I'm just getting screwed with Wasteland and Ports when it comes to that. Not fetchable with Burning Wish. However, not counterable, is a must in SB anyway because of Counterbalance.

Meltdown
Can easily be countered, tho most decks playing Chalice of the Void don't run many counterspells. Is fetchable, but can't be used at the end of turn; requires a turn to clean, then next turn to win. Won't get countered with an other Chalice.

Chain of Vapor
Can't be used game one, but can be used at the end of turn, has other options like extra storm counter. Biggest counter? It costs 1, I can never cast that due to Chalice @ 1.

Echoing Truth
Can be used at the end of turn, costs 2 so is rather safe vs other Chalice, but can't be used game one, and doesn't get rid of Chalice + Ethersworn like Meltdown can.

Thoughts?

[Maikhell]

Pulverize is also an option against chalice... kind of a clunk one, but still... it's wishable.

There is always stuff like Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild, but it also seems too narrow.

[Lemnear]

Pulverize is also an option against chalice... kind of a clunk one, but still... it's wishable.

There is always stuff like Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild, but it also seems too narrow.

How often do we control two Mountains? You plan to cast Rebuild against Lodestone Golemn and/or Wastelands?

[Maikhell]

How often do we control two Mountains? You plan to cast Rebuild against Lodestone Golemn and/or Wastelands?

LDX just said that he uses a Volcanic and a Badlands, wich is more plausable to be using Pulverize than in a 2 Volcanics build. Considering that he have said about Rishadan Ports in his opponents lists then I'm inclined to think that he's talking about D&T. Therefore, it hasn't Lodestones. Hurkyl's still a better option than Rebuild.

Anyway, against D&T (and similar builds) I would not try to respond their lock pieces. I would rather try to combo as fast as I can... you know, like going belcher style.

[LDX]

Maikhell, please note that the D&T I face are running Chalice of the Void 4x, Ethersworn Canonist, and Enlightened Tutor to reach those pieces at will. As I said before in here and in some articles, simply rushing doesn't help when it can be 100% impossible to win game 2. By that, I mean, we're on the draw, they play Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1 on their second turn. It requires you to win T1 without artifacts. Which never happened to me yet.

I appreciate your Pulverize suggestion, but yeah, I believe at this point that being able to remove all artifacts before your actual combo turn is better than being wishable. And being honest, I was pointing that two red sources (let alone Mountains!) aren't enough for Shattering Spree, so yeah, I wouldn't see myself cast Pulverize at any time. For this reason, I have to consider Hurkyl's Recall over anything else, competing for now with Echoing Truth, which as some other uses.

That being said, the reason I ask is because I was very lucky to have a lot of help here, but then my playgroup started lurking this thread and adapt to the answers I was given. Since we aren't playing Magic as of late, this is just the best time to ask. As also said before by others, the ''classic'' TES list is built to win large tournaments, not small playgroups in which people adapt to you. Again it might explain my struggle.

But then, I'm playing on Cockatrice more than anything else, and Chalice of the Void became really popular with this new set. I want to test against the hate there.

[Lemnear]

Maikhell, please note that the D&T I face are running Chalice of the Void 4x, Ethersworn Canonist, and Enlightened Tutor to reach those pieces at will. As I said before in here and in some articles, simply rushing doesn't help when it can be 100% impossible to win game 2. By that, I mean, we're on the draw, they play Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1 on their second turn. It requires you to win T1 without artifacts. Which never happened to me yet.

I appreciate your Pulverize suggestion, but yeah, I believe at this point that being able to remove all artifacts before your actual combo turn is better than being wishable. And being honest, I was pointing that two red sources (let alone Mountains!) aren't enough for Shattering Spree, so yeah, I wouldn't see myself cast Pulverize at any time. For this reason, I have to consider Hurkyl's Recall over anything else, competing for now with Echoing Truth, which as some other uses.

That being said, the reason I ask is because I was very lucky to have a lot of help here, but then my playgroup started lurking this thread and adapt to the answers I was given. Since we aren't playing Magic as of late, this is just the best time to ask. As also said before by others, the ''classic'' TES list is built to win large tournaments, not small playgroups in which people adapt to you. Again it might explain my struggle.

But then, I'm playing on Cockatrice more than anything else, and Chalice of the Void became really popular with this new set. I want to test against the hate there.

Trygon Predator... shhhhh

[LDX]

Trygon Predator... shhhhh

Haha, I actually don't know if it's a real suggestion, or a piece of that legendary german humor. :) I feel like this is a fool trap or something.

I'll bite, let's elaborate a just a bit more on Trygon Predator.

The main issue is that its effect isn't relevant before turn 4.

Other issues include, but are not limited to:

-Creatures can be removed (even if most spot-removal are gone against us post-board, some still fear Xantid and keep some, or some multi-effect cards like Lightning Bolt hits hard)

-Only remove one piece of hate at time (in other words, 1 swing is MINIMUM, could need more swings to remove Chalice @ 1 + Chalice @ 0, not talking about Ethersworn, Trinisphere, etc.)

-Can be blocked by Delver or any other flying creature (thus making its effect unusable)

-Forcing the vulnerability to Wasteland before our combo turn (turn 3 to cast, turn 4 to have a first effect, turn 5 if needed... so much time not hiding behind fetches)


Now let's re-explain the whole situation in a proper, logical manner.

Locks are locks. Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, and Chalice among others are very hard on TES.

Two solutions: 1) win before they get dropped 2) answer them.

It seems that, without a perfect T1 hand on the play, I can't win before facing some hate. And that's being lucky, meaning my opponent doesn't play Leyline of Sanctity (which is not an artifact, I concur.) Even if we drop all our artifacts on turn 1 proactively trying to counter the Chalice @ 0 coming next, we must win on our turn 2 at max, because they'll keep that Chalice @ 0 for a Chalice @ 1 now, on their turn 2. It is technically possible to win without removing a Chalice @ 1 if you dropped some artifacts on turn 1, but let's be realistic: these scenarios are the exceptions, not the norm.

When a piece of hate is down, we can try to rush through it, but we'll all admit it becomes harder and harder as time goes by, right? Because we couldn't win before it was landed, and don't focus on removing the lock piece.

Now I wish I could do proper maths, but I don't believe the coefficent Trygon Predator gives to us is a proper sweetspot between speed and removal.

You know my position, I prefer to give myself a chance at winning despite a hate that comes too often, than sitting in front of 2 Chalices that lock me at 100% (like, impossible to win) with 0 & 1 counters. Is is not that I want to argue ''removal > speed'', it is that, most of the time, ''speed = 1% chance winning, removal = 10%''.

For this reason, I'm trying to find the best removal possible. Honestly I think anymore justification on this point would be just redundancy. Let's move on.

That leaves us with the debate of which hate to choose. To be honest, I couldn't see myself play Trygon Predator, especially as every turn is so important. Even if the only option left is the removal, there's still room to play between the power of the removal and the speed of it, and I would argue that Trygon Predator is nor fast, not powerful for all the reasons listed above. I'm ready to listen because I acknowledge your abilities more than mine, but please explain to me how it's a better solution than any of the previous ones listed. I mean, the only, very tiny advantage I see is that extra 2 damage, but it comes by turn 4 (!) in a match-up you try to win by, at best turn 0, at worst turn 1, at impossible level turn 2.

What am I missing? Please enlighten me because the more I write about Trygon Predator, the more I feel like the card just... shouldn't be played.

Meanwhile, one thing I'm trying to do to gives me more chance with speed is to mulligan and shuffle better. While shuffling isn't a factor on Cockatrice, I indeed watched myself win a game or two with 5 cards in hands, when I had a previous 6 cards with removal hand. I'm really trying to understand and apply that speed should be the main factor, and this is something I can actually work on.

But it's not reliable.

[Spam]

In my experience, the only good ansew against artifacts is rebuild. It costs 3, but man the joy it brings.

[Lemnear]

-Only remove one piece of hate at time (in other words, 1 swing is MINIMUM, could need more swings to remove Chalice @ 1 + Chalice @ 0, not talking about Ethersworn, Trinisphere, etc.)

And how does a board of that win against Trygon? You fly over for two damage (aka one storm less required), destroy a card and repeat next turn while your D&T opponent locked himself out of Plowshares. As long as you play fetchlands, Petals and Chrome Moxen dropping the card turn 2 is pretty reasonable

[Bryant Cook]

New article on preparing for SCG: Philly - http://www.theepicstorm.com/the-curr...hain-of-vapor/

[LDX]

And how does a board of that win against Trygon? You fly over for two damage (aka one storm less required), destroy a card and repeat next turn while your D&T opponent locked himself out of Plowshares. As long as you play fetchlands, Petals and Chrome Moxen dropping the card turn 2 is pretty reasonable

Man, I could write down the thousand win conditions of that deck, each hit of even Mother of Runes if needed, that grind the hell out of our Ad Nauseam. Thalia hits hard too, but I understand that Hurkyll's Recall doesn't take care of her either. I must admit this is very abstract in my mind, how Trygon can't help us, I mean, I can't settle down on which scenario to bring because it seems there are too many. That overflow of thoughts make me unable to write about it, just to feel how bad the idea seems to me.

But at the same time, I totally understand that feelings aren't something we can argue on, and that doesn't prove you that you're wrong.

I can get over that and try it on my own, it will surely either give me real, concrete scenarios to discuss, or prove me how wrong I was. I acknowledge enough to do that. Coming back to TES seems even harder than before lol.

On an other subject, I read that ''Top Five Legacy Decks'' by the ''experts''. I just wanted to let you know that I can't hate someone who can express his thoughts as clearly as you do. You surely bring some ideas out of the box (sometimes, way too far out of the box, let's admit it, lol), and some of your content can be a bit stretched, but most of the time, it makes sense. I can't agree all the time on substance, but the form is always sharp. I appreciate that. Makes you way more relevant than most around here, if I may.