Bryant just won a game he shoudn't have. Opponent has double Force + 2 blue cards. Bryant goes Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Burning Wish (Force of Will), Burning Wish (resolves!!!) for Tendrils, Chrome Mox, Petal, Tendrils for 16 while opponent is at 15 with Force + blue card in hand.
I thought your canadian delver match was pretty interesting. At 6, and with 3 cantrips to back it, I don't think it wouldve been right to mull to 5 even if that hand is a one-lander. I mean, what 5 could you have mulled to that wouldve gotten past Stifle + Wasteland and still been able to win? Anyone who doesn't recognize that as a great opening for RUG in that game is being an idiot.
I also thought the game 2 Xantids were pretty interesting. Given that you're not running Pyroblast, were you just at a shortage of cards to bring in, or were you using the fact that you were on the play to force him to either a) have bolt and thus not be able to waste, hold up stifle/pierce, delver etc. or b) get Swarm going and try to go off t2? I think on the play that can be a pretty good pincer, especially if you had Swarm off a Gemstone Mine.
Great matches, great work, will there be a tourney report to look forward to?
EDIT: Given how much RUG Delver popped up in the top 8, would you consider returning to some number of Pyroblasts, taking that top 8 as a metagame signal? In a more general vein of curiosity, how were you liking the 75 throughout the tournament?
@Bryan: How did Void Snare perform at the open?
Last edited by kavaki; 07-21-2014 at 01:08 AM. Reason: overtly hostile post, deleted it to show my main point
Punishing Nic Fit
If we wanted to be playing ANT we would be. That's really all there is too it. You don't build a deck like this without looking into the other options as well. Each for our own reasons decided TES was the deck for us. So you can say all you want, I have made my choice, as have many others so your doing yourself no favours by coming here.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
Originally Posted by Spam
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
On the one hand I certainly have forgotten to congratulate you to your top16 finish but on the other hand either my post was a bit misleading or hit on a raw nerve, which was not intended.
I don't want to talk about ANT's results in the US... that's another story, I guess. Nonetheless, I think it's very immature that TES players use genitals as a comperative analogy - really disappointed that you reacted like this.
Sure there are still Belcher, SI and whatever.storm and they all have their warranty in this format. I just wanted to point out the fact that you are TES's figurehead which may lead to the idea that people are playing this deck due to your commitment in developing it further. Nothing bad here.
In fact, beating a turn one Griselbrand is a nice move although I haven't seen it on camera yet. (To state clear: I know that this happened yesterday but wasn't able to see live. Don't get mad.)
Not sure which post you read but let's stay ontopic, dude.
Last edited by CabalTherapy; 07-21-2014 at 06:04 AM.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
Perhaps I can help you out in that respect:
I think what winds up happening on The Source is that some folks do extremely well with their pet decks or deck of choice. In this instance, T.E.S. is Bryant's Legacy deck of choice and one that he's been playing for a number of years. In fact, he's been the primary architect on its design for nearly a decade. When someone invests that much time and energy into creating a well-oiled machine and performs brilliantly with it time and time again, it becomes clear that it's not the pilot masking the flaws of the deck - it's the deck masking the flaws of the pilot.
What this means is that while the deck may be difficult to play, there are times when a straight-up double-Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam is good enough to win a game, flat-out. Grind 'em out affairs and other intricate decision trees, however, require a great deal of intuitive and technical skill and I think that is where the disconnect exists that a lot of Storm players seem to be having between each other. Everyone is verrry protective of their go-to archetypes, and that's fine. But I think the reason Bryant is retaliating that way is due in large part to people not taking the time to actually comprehend the fact that - perhaps - he not only knows what he's doing, he's so comfortable playing the deck that the lines of play open up seemingly at will when he plays it.
This mastery creates aggression in others because they just can't or haven't reached that level of patience and expertise with the deck to play it well consistently. This is why you see a lot of unknowns who make myriads of mistakes in the Open Top 8s due to inexperience, camera fright or inability to play the deck accurately. Again - the deck masks the pilot's flaws in high-level competition.
The fact he's keeping it "interesting and alive to others" is through no fault of his own and that is simply a byproduct of his updates and tournament play; he chooses to play the deck because he excels with it. Mimicry is one of the highest forms of flattery and if other players see someone constantly doing well with a deck or archetype, they're going to gravitate to it no matter what or who it is.
Have you told them about that match where your opponent conceded when he had the win on the board? I think what... round 5?
Bryant, we chatted for a bit, i said that I switched from ANT to your list. I played all 9 rounds, finished 6-3. got 69th place based on breakers.
Anyways, here's a small Tourny report from Baltimore. Please forgive the formatting and shitty notes. I don't write reports that often.
Rd 1 - Loss to Reanimator. 0-2.
I misplayed game 1, casting Empty for 14 goblins, and not using the back end of cabal therapy to strip his reanimate. He rips entomb off the top and gets Elesh Norn.
Rd 2. - Loss to Miracles. 0-2
Game 2, he kept 2x land, 3x counterbalance, rest in peace, misdirection. I played Probe, land cabal therapy. He misdirects, and i name something that isn't in my hand obviously. Turn 2, i cast infernal tutor to get a second abrupt decay, and am able to destroy both his counterbalances. I continue to draw rituals, but no tutors or dig spells. he lands a jace, and wins.
Rd. 3. Win against u/r delver. 2-0
Game 1, he drops a goblin guide turn 1. My turn 1, i empty my hand into empty the warrens for 12.
Rd 4. Win - opponent never showed up. Bitter sweet.
Rd. 5 Win - show and tell. 2-0
Can't remember what happened game 1, Life totals are at 17/16 in my favor on my notepad. I must have gotten to Ad Naus, and won.
His turn 1 he drops Petal, Land, G. Cage.
Game 2, I kept a really greedy hand of: Petal, brainstorm, LED, Infernal Tutor, G. Probe, Dark Ritual, Ponder. I lead with Probe, and see (Show and Tell, Emrakul, Island, Brainstorm, Misty) Off of probe I draw Infernal tutor. I cast Lotus petal, brainstorm into U.Sea, petal, LED. I put back LED on top, and Tutor underneath.
His turn 2, he show and tells emrakul into play.
My turn 2, i cast ponder, I see another dark ritual.
His turn 3, he swings with emrakul. Dropping me to 3. I sacrifice my only permanent, Underground sea.
My turn 3, I cast Petal, Petal, D. Ritual, Rite of flame, LED, LED, Infernal tutor, cracking both LED's, grab Infernal, Grab Burning wish, Tendrils for 10. Felt pretty good.
Round 6. Win against jund 2-0
Stripped his hand game 1, and went off with tendrils.
Game 2 was a shit show for me. I messed up when I was storming off after Ad naus. I ended up not having enough mana to kill him with tendrils, and I had already cast past in flames, AND used all my mana from the Graveyard. I ended up killing his tarmogoyf, Deathrite, and Liliana with grapeshot. And i still had a good grip to go off hopefully the next turn. I knew his hand was M. Pulse, and Golgari charm, thats why I never cast empty, even though I had 1 cabal therapy in my graveyard. Next turn, my opponent casts liliana, and we both discard, he discards his golgari charm. On my turn, I go off for 14 goblins, and strip his Maelstrom Pulse with my Cabal Therapy from the graveyard. All he has in play is a 6/7 tarmogoyf, while he's at 16 life. I'm at 1 life this whole time. He concedes. I asked where his outs were. He said that he only kept in two lightning bolts, and took out both Punishing fires. Both of his Bolts were already in his graveyard. So his only out was an engineered plague. So that felt good.
Round 7 - Loss to Elves -0-2
Yeah, sucks so much losing to a good matchup. All he did was drop 1-2 beaters. and kept hitting away for 3 points of damage. I never drew what I needed to win.
Game 2 I stripped away two glimpse of natures, which was good. but he had well timed thoughtseizes, and beat me down.
Round 8 - Win against death and taxes. 2-1
Game 1 he lays down a plains, and passes. My turn 1 I drop underground sea and cast cabal therapy in the blind naming thalia. He seemed impressed, I got it. Turn 2 he drops SFM. I cantrip into nothing, he beats with batterskull. (Empty for 10 isn't really that good on turn 4 against death and taxes)
Game 2, I probe, cabal therapy away his thalia. His turn 1 is an aether vial. My turn 2 I Ad naus down to 2 life, and tendrils for 10.
Game 3, he plays another turn 1 Aether vial. My turn 2 is another Ad Naus for the win. Both games 2 and three, he had ethersworn cannonist in his hand when I went off.
Round 9- Win against death and taxes. 2-0
I cannot really remember what happened game 1, but My life total is at 3, and his at 26. I have chicken scratch marks up to 15, so i guess I had either tendrils for 30, or 30 goblins.
Game 2 was another shit show for me. I cast Probe turn 1, saw 2x SMF, 3x Thalia, 1x plains, 1x Cataclysm. I had Ad Naus down to 2 life, and did NOT have the kill on the board. But i had a bunch of cabal therapies in hand and a lot of black mana floating. So naturally, it was only 3 therapies to strip his hand. Felt pretty sweet. His turn 1, he plays a land. Two turns later i get to 10 storm and tendrils.
So overall, i felt pretty good with the list. Like Bryant told me at the event, he was really happy with his current list. I agree. It's really good. It just seems so much stronger then ANT right now, and faster. (I played ANT for like... 6 months). I've been jamming TES for the last two months, probably going to play it for Eternal Extravaganza at Cafferys.
That hand was fine, I didn’t think he was playing Stifle as Beottcher and him were discussing how tight the deck was on slots and how he managed to fit in Probe. I was punished, it happens. My deck was on the wrong side of variance, perhaps I’m even for the match I stole against Todd.
I sided them out quickly for game three after seeing he kept in Bolts. He admitted to not being familiar with the match-up and I wanted to see if I could punish him.
Not likely, I don’t write reports for not top 8’ing an event. As I said yesterday on a social media page, “It’s top 8 or last place.” I could care less about a top 16.
I have no interest in playing Pyroblast at the moment. My seventy-five was fine, I’m probably not going to run the Massacre again, it’s three or four events in a row I haven’t used it. I’m considering trying out the Pithing Needle approach that Lemnear has been jamming or possibly a Chain of Vapor?
Cabal Ritual was just okay at this event, I’ve noticed how much weaker my Ad Nauseams have been at times with one less Chrome Mox. However, I’ve liked not drawing Moxen in my hand and instead having Cabal Rituals. I’m at a loss, I may try the Tropical in the main again with the third Mox instead of the Rituals. Creating two sideboard slots for Pithing Needle, however, this creates five slots to bring in which is more than likely too many. I have some tinkering to do.
Used it twice, once to pitch to Chrome Mox after casting Wish as bait before casting Ad Nauseam. The second time to bounce Leyline of Sanctity game two versus a post variant.
My opponent did his math wrong when I was at one life, I had to keep flipping - revealed Lion’s Eye Diamond. He counted wrong a second time and then picked them up. Top card of my deck was a Brainstorm and I needed a non-fetchland land to be revealed (Mox or Petal would’ve done too).
In other news, the links below have been added to the opening post.
07-20-2014 Bryant Cook vs. Todd Anderson
07-20-2014 Bryant Cook vs. Dylan Donegan
If Massacre is being cut, is it worth adding Deathmark to the board or does Void Snare//grapeshot just deal with the hatebears?
Bryant, you mentioned adding a trop to the main, what would you be cutting for it? (Apologies if you already said and I didn't read it).
Legacy: UWr Miracles and Nic Fit
Modern: RG Tron and Nauseam Combo
Established Scrub.
sounds like he is considering, but not liking the thought of, cutting the Cabal Rituals for a 3rd Mox and Trop.
Punishing Nic Fit
That's some pretty good reads, then. Of course, the reads/mind games stole that game 2 from him later anyway, Swarm or not...
Oh well, better luck next time. Do you have plans for another run at an Open soon?
I've been playing with Pithing Needle myself, and I can vouch for it's quality. It's not quite the same approach as Xantid in Griselbrand matches, but i feel its very flexible and relevant in a handful of matchups to make up for it. Why are you no longer interested in Pyroblast? I liked at least 1 to handle Mage and also deal with Clique/SCM/Delver, made tempo a somewhat mroe comfortable matchup.
The swap between Chrome Mox/Cabal Ritual is pretty understandable, I've had lots of matches where I looked at one in the opener/off Ad Nauseam and wished it was the other, or when it really didn't matter which I was holding. I don't know if I'd want Tropical in the main though, it feels so awkward to just have that non-basic Island in a lot of cases. Would 4 Chrome Mox be too disadvantageous these days? or maybe 3rd CM some sort of 1-of mana ritual/tech? If you have a list and don't have time to test, you could PM/post it here and I could run it through some MTGO dailies.
I've been brainstorming lists this afternoon, I'm not settled on anything. Pyroblasts are in a couple of them, but they're not where I'd like to be. One-of cards aren't great because Infernal can't find a second copy of it, also, I can't see the reasoning for increasing Mox up to four when we don't want to naturally draw them.
Shoving the Tropical Island into the main creates a sideboard slot for more experimenting with cards such as Needle.
I don't think I'd really be wanting to Infernal a Pyroblast anyway, I'd be more inclined to have the 1-of just so I can hit off Ad Nauseam and kill Meddling Mage, sorta like how there used to be a 1-of CoV for Leylines.
While I can see why Chrome Mox isn't incredible at 4, I don't think I'd be thrilled to have Trop in the main. It just does so little in game 1, and then in matchups where i'm not wanting Decay/Xantid it slows my hand/gets sided out. Part of the good part about 3 color builds that I/Lemnear have tried is that you don't have an awkward land that only powers cantrips/sb cards, the exchange being you don't have directly powerful effects of Xantid/Decay.
Though, however many colors you want is a digression, my main point is that Tropical is probably better than a 4th CM, but I'm not thrilled by it either. It just feels like it dilutes the deck on it's own and even if Cabal Ritual is "just okay", Rit at least is providing storm count and relevantly colored mana. This might be an incorrect attitude, but I put a lot of stock in winning g1, since siding tends to help opponents more than me (examples: flusterstorm, lol). Thus, maining a card that doesn't pitch in to help g1, so that siding is somewhat improved feels like poor value to me.
You could just run a somewhat generic card like Preordain, if you want to avoid high CMC 1-ofs. You could run a 4cmc bomb like PiF/Tendrils main, since removing 2 Cabal Rituals for CM and a 4 cmc card is the same average cmc for Ad Nauseam, but having the extra CM skews the outcome somewhat in your favor, so you have better Ad Nauseams and possibly more routes to victory (note: your Ad Nauseams are better on average because the average CMC is the same, but there's 1 more CM, so you don't have to go as deep. However, 1 CMC 4 card means the variance is higher, even if on average you should be succeeding more, so, you have a greater capacity to be punished by bad luck, but I don't think thats quite relevant to deck building, just something to keep in mind).
for mana effects, which often are replicated by infernal, you probably would want to just run 2 with 2 CM. the issue i have is that I can't really think of one thats better than cabal ritual in terms of output and we're already playing all the cheaper CMC effects so you cant really improve on that front either :/
@Bryant:
Have you been using grapeshot lately?
EDIT: apart I just feel that t.siland doesn't belong to the base.
@sawatrix
@WonderPreax
I've been using Brybery lately and for my purposes is beeing ok, I also use D.Returns in the side I think these 2 cards in conjunction makes the maths vs several archetypes in the terms of speed, but what I like from TES is the ability to resolve puzzles vs the differents we can face via B.W.
a) I just use D.Returns vs Discard, Dredge ,as a WinInAturn button piece, sometimes just because its the unique chance of winning. one puzzle piece
b) Bribery is an A.N 7 mana cost or even better as you dont need to discard your hand to get it! vs Reanimator and S&T, this fact was beeing demonstrated in some mutch ups I played lately. another puzzle piece
c) I just use EtW vs Agro in general as main strategy so grabbing I.T. is sometimes a remote strategy -> so no need from any target of b.w. apart of tendrils or discard
d) I just win control match ups with Jedy mind tricks -> so no need from any target of b.w. apart of tendrils or discard - i.t.
e) V.snare in conjunction to massacre makes g.shot a redundant puzzle tool.
The con is just 1 less side space. i just to add decays, more discard and pyro or xantid - I've beeing confortable to just add more discard to batle S&T or likes, just potentiating the discard or win strategy. really I just don't do much.
EDT: Also wonderpreaux, having 1 pyro vs m.mage does not worth it, you can or not with A.N and does not work the same way as CoV. as you can not PiF to grab it. so playing 2 grws up the chances to the double.
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My one-of comment was at Cabal Ritual. Not Pyroblast.
You're missing the point, it's not about how useful it is at all. It's about conserving sideboard space. I have little interest in cutting green.
Four Chrome Mox used to be a staple, but drawing them in multiples is fairly miserable. Which is why the current lists play less than four, I don't want to put myself in those situations.
for mana effects, which often are replicated by infernal, you probably would want to just run 2 with 2 CM. the issue i have is that I can't really think of one thats better than cabal ritual in terms of output and we're already playing all the cheaper CMC effects so you cant really improve on that front either :/[/QUOTE]
I'll figure it out. A main deck Tendrils may be fine, but I rarely want one. As of right now, if I do remove Cabal Rituals it will be to slide the Tropical in. But who knows?
Ah, ok, that makes more sense
I get that it's about SB space, I'm just of the opinion that we get less value out of improving the SB than other decks, especially when we get that space by carrying Trop in the main. If you're dropping Massacre, you could just shave that and a Xantid for 2 Pithing Needles anyway, since Needle and Xantid sounds incredible in Griselbrand matchups. Needle also performs well against Miracles, so you could drop to 2 Decays and fit some other card in. Though, idk what new plans youre brainstorming, you might be really strapped for space in the SB for all I know.
Tendrils could be interesting, opens up the occasional Infernal Tutor chain, gives us some relief from Extraction and control matchups might benefit from it. Aside from that, all I can think of are weird cards like Dimir/Sapphire Charm, lol. Trop might just be the best of a whole lot of "meh" cards, its too bad we cant just run 5 Infernal Tutors in the 75
I have often wanted to side the tendrils in but never would I want it main without one also in the board. If we are conserving sideboard space, I will probably add the second copy.
I side the Tendrils in anyway if I have to subvert Extractions, since we have a sb Infernal Tutor. Maining a Tendrils just lets you off the hook for that and gives you some occasional spell-chain lines. Also, if you main a Tendrils and side an I. Tutor, you can ramp up mana, and then go Wish > Tutor > Tendrils in addition to being able to Wish > Tutor > Wish > Tendrils, so you get that natural line at both inflection points.
@Bryant: didn't you have a list a few months that had 6 discard, 2 Cabal Ritual and 3 Chrome Mox? You'd have 2 Cabal Rituals for Infernal Tutor, 3 Chrome Mox for Ad Nauseam, why not run that? If 6 discard isn't enough you could keep 7 discard and drop a Ponder, perhaps.
EDIT: Ok, so this is my last idea on what to do with Cabal Ritual's slots. I think a good thing to do with them, and the thing Im going to test either tomorrow or wednesday, is replacing the 2 Cabal Rituals with Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide. SSG is super-old-school, and probably isn't very attractive at 3cmc but I think it provides what I'm looking for: better Ad Nauseams. Compared to 2 Cabal Rituals, SSG + Chrome Mox is 1 CMC less, so your average flip is less damage, and SSG and Chrome Mox are both initial mana sources, so you can Ad Nauseam with nothing floating more often or, more generally, just not have to dig as deep. The issue with one-ofs that you can't use with I. Tutor isn't relevant with SSG because SSG doesn't benefit from multiples and also isn't a spell, but it isn't as god-awful as opening 2 Chrome Mox.
SSG also has fringe benefits as a castable 2/2, it flashes back Cabal Therapy against control, and can stall Meddling Mage/Canonist while you dig for solutions. As I mentioned before, I'll test this either tomorrow or the day after and report back. Considering I picked up a playset on MTGO for 12.4 cents apiece, I won't exactly be crushed if this doesn't go well. If it turns out to be a bust, I guess I'll just get hyped for Tropical Island in the main. Happy storming, everyone.
Last edited by wonderPreaux; 07-22-2014 at 02:38 AM.
I'd rather run a MB PIF than a MB Tendrils to open up the line of BW -> IT -> PIF -> IT -> BW -> ToA. Personally, I kept the 4th infernal in the MB as my usual mid-/lategame plan is IT -> BW -> PIF -> IT -> BW -> ToA.
For the discussion about the CR-or-not topic, I kinda miss the point being made that the 2 CR + 12 Lands + 2 Moxen version had only 18 IMS while the one with 13 lands and 3 Moxen has 20. For my taste that is a significant difference for hitting IMS' for both, starting hands and AN flips while lowering the average damage dealt to yourself by flipping cards to the 5cc instant.
In regards to SB, I can see a 2/2/2 split between Decay/Needle/Xantid to have a total of 4 slots to board for Miracles/Griselbrand.dec (we did a similar split with Pyroblast as well).
I don't see this making much sense. You have one more IMS here for casting AN fast, but its a horrible card to reveal to AN as well
By the way, I would not squeeze in discard for the cost of cutting a Ponder
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