My experience with BUG is complete different. Fighting discard with discard don't help because you can't Win on the back of a single topdecked creature. You'll need a flurry of spells. My last tournament match vs. BG NicFit was won due to luck after we riped our hands and upkeep-silence is golden vs. Decks with Hymn.
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Silence IS good versus discard decks since you can just silence-walk them instead of taking an IoK and then they topdeck that Thoughtseize.
Legacy:
Dredge
U/R Delver
T.E.S.
Belcher
Deadguy Ale
Modern:
Scapeshift
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Played a local tourney tonight. Chopped top 4. Sweetness.
Round1: Jund
This guy just took 20th at the Open on Sunday
Game 1: Made a bunch of Goblins on T1 after he plays a DRS. Got there.
Game 2: I keep a slower hand He Hymns me, then plays a liliana and starts going to town with a Bob. I die to a large Goyf and Bob.
Game 3: My hand was SUPER Sketchy on a mull to 6. He kept his 7. My 6: 2x Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Gitaxian Probe. I probe him and see: 2x land, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Bob, Surgical Extraction, Liliana. I laugh a little bit and comment how I am just dead. I draw Abrupt Decay, play out my petals, play out chrome Mox Imprinting Decay. Pass. He thoughtseizes my Infernal Tutor and Surgicals it after drawstep (which was a land). I cast Burning Wish for PiF and hope to god I get there. He plays out Bob and Liliana and I draw: Land, Dark Ritual, LED. meanwhile he has put himself to 14. I rip for the turn Rite of flame. He has Liliana at 6, and Im at 12. All or fucking Nothing. Cast ROF, Crack LED to flashback PiF. Cast ROF, Darkritual. Im all or nothing on my Gitaxian Probe getting me my 3 outer of Burning wish. I get it. Tendrils for exactsies on mana and Storm count. I apologize.
1-0
Round 2: UW Delver (Same guy I lost to in top 8 last week)
Game 1 I probe and see, Spell pierce, 2x Stifle, Snapcaster, Daze, and a Jitte. I get beat down by snappy a bit while trying to form a defense. He draws Geist of Saint Traft and I die shortly after.
Game 2: I probe and see, 2x Land, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Mindbreak trap, Brainstorm. I slowly run him out of counters But he got a geist of saint traft. My hand is Dark Ritual x2, Ad Nauseam, petal, and silence with a gemstone on board. He hits me to ten. I cast the petal, And Silence him. He has a MBT and Force in hand but decides to just let me go for it. I need this Ad Nauseam to be very good. It was pretty great.
Game 3: I keep an empty hand that needs one single initial mana source to go off for 14 goblins on T1. He says fuck it and keeps his six. I have double probe. I probe and see 5x Lands and a Force of Will. Dont get there. I probe, dont get there. Mean while while Im durdling for a single mana source he rips, Spell Pierce, Delver and Geist of saint traft. I never got there and I die. :((((((((((
1-1
Round 3: Mono Black Pox
Im on the draw
Game 1: He does land go. I have an insane T1 Adnauseam Hand and he dies.
Game 2: I have an Awesome Ad Nauseam Hand. he leads off with the Rack. I go off. My flop was pretty shitty. I end up fizzling and discard to 7 at 2 life hoping he doesnt play Bloodghast. He plays 2 Shrieking Affliction. I dump my hand but am 2 storm short (bad math) so I tendrils him for 16 to go to 18 to buy some time since I put him to 4 and I have a Burning Wish. A couple of turns later Grapeshot gets him for exactsies. this is why I love the grapeshot.
2-1
Round 4: Spanish Inquisition
Game 1: Im on the play! I set up a turn 2 kill. I dont get to see Turn 2 :( Damn unfair decks!
Game 2: he mulls down a bit, I have a Turn 2 Kill and it gets there.
Game 3: He Mulls to 6, and I have a somewhat clunky hand, but it does have potential plus a silence. He goes T1 Dryad Arbor pass! I play my 5 color land and just hold silence. He goes Exile Spirit guide, manamorphose, Sacrifice his dryad arbor to culling the weak. I silence in response. He slaps the table somewhat angrily but in a joking manner. I duress and just take his LED hoping that was the right call, meanwhile my brainstorm was absolute dog shit. After I draw 3 from Brainstorm I have 2 Infernal Tutors and 3 burning Wishes. Super duper yuck. He tries to go for it while Im tapped down though and casts double Summoners Pact to try to Cruel Bargain to get there. He is one mana short and scoops! Yay!
3-1
Top 8: GB Smallpox
Despite this being almost unlosable, its against my roommate. We split whatever winnings we will get but play it out for fun.
Game1: He is on the play because he is a higher seed. He doesnt disrupt me and I make 18 dudes. I win.
Game2: He casts cabal Therapy. My hand is like 2x LED, 2x ROF, Chrome Mox, Probe, Brainstorm and Silence? he names IT. Woo! I draw a gemstone and brainstorm and find a probe and a Burning Wish. I make 18 goblins and his top doesnt find him a pulse or deed.
4-1
Overall the deck was great as usual. That one game 3 against UW Delver was overall frustrating as shit to me because I should have won. I was playing to an 18 outer. It happens though. I wrote in my notes in the Jund Match in Round 1: "Probe got there!". Underlined a billion times. Sometimes this deck just makes me giddy. Past in Flames, now that I have learned how to use it went from being my least used card in the wish board, to the best (though Ill-Gotten Gains is still my favorite loop to cast).
Props:
-As always the top of my deck
-Gitaxian Probe for being fucking insane
-My Jund Opponent for being a good sport about my luck sack
Slops
-The top of my deck for not getting there against delver...
-my Opponents for playing discard > Force of Will
-Greg Mitchell for playing Value town and not something unfair. If you arent going to play your Korean Dark Rituals Ill trade for them ;)
If you've played hundreds of games you should eliminate the luck-factor and get an idea about the average performance. Sometimes you draw the nuts, sometimes the deck screws you, but that was not my topic. It's calculating odds of these 2:
- How many turns does it take to have "at least 2-3 lands" in play in a deck with 12 lands in average if you main targets for Ponder, Brainstorm etc. are Tutors or mana boosts like LED and Dark Ritual?
- how likely is it that the 8-mana-play to wish for Spiral is successful after you gave your Control/tempo opponent (the only archtypes which you'll grant that many turns) 5+ turns to develop (Topic Wasteland, Daze, Counterspell, FoW, Spell Pierce, etc.)?
The conclusions he drew are so off from my experience that I questioned him about that, but I get the same response I get since months: justification via ominous playtesting, discredit and insults. *shrug*
Maybe I'm just being sick of so many new guys on TheSource which tell fairytales about "3 years playtesting" and come up with blue Control decks without Brainstorm and Fetchlands because "Ancestral Visions is superior" (MUC Thread), Eternal Dragon is UW's best killoption and Nevi Disk a solution for the meta (both Old School U/W Thread) or introduce BG(r) decks with a manabase which doesn't even produce red or black mana (Development Thread BG Nether Void/Planeswalker).
I guess I should just quit to try to help people... *sigh*
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Eh if people say it works for them, Id say let it work for them. If people come to you for help and you tell them what is wrong and why it is wrong and they vehemently deny it, then let them lose their games and wonder why. I would like to play Time Spiral one week at the local for fun, but deep down I know its not as good.
We know Bryants take on Spiral and I have tested it in 1 tournament soon after it got unbanned but was unable to generate 8 mana in both situations the card was a possible wish target during 5 or 6 rounds I played back then, aside from the case that Gemstone Mine can run out of counters over such a long Game and isn't available after Spiral
It's outright cocky imo, to take something that a single man said as a justification for Spiral even if that single mans take on Spiral is very clear.
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Ok, let's agree on this:
I'm not able to get a flurry of spells vs BUG variants, even in 2nd and 3rd games they will counter my gitaxian... as they re full of good cards/resources vs us . Hymn, Fluster, T.Seize apart of Pierce and FoW.
If you do know the oponnet has Hymn , you can Silence him, but only if he has Hymn, for this scenario if he has FoW and Hymn, Therapy is much better as you will name Hymn with Therapy, and Silence in this scenario will be bad.
If you are playing vs a Deck wich has both FoW and Hymn, Therapy is better as can target both of the cards. This is applicable to other scenarios: (Ex. The opponent has multiple discard effects and Decay and you have LED, you can name Decay, play LED and wait for bomb making the rest of discard from oponent irrelevant)
The match ups I've won vs BUG was because of Silence + Diminishing OR Empty Plan. (for 2nd and 3rd games the Go Off As Soon as You Can Plan is no longer valid.) I just would not like to win so much times with D.R. I don't think it is the proper plan.
As said, even Therapy is good in the Empty plan for 2nd and 3rd games.
So in conclusion Silence is good vs BUG if you do not expect variable hate (pro active and reactive) , Therapy is just more polivalent as can target a Dark confidant, Hymn, T.Seizes, etc. BUT Silence helps us to Get the D.R. Plan only safety.
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Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Variable hate is hard to beat for Storm in any case. Versus Hymn a silence-walk can be enough to win off the additional draw, sometimes wishing for PIF and waiting for artifact mana and lands is the right strategy ... depends. I'm just curious how you plan to Board between the 4 therapy SB and 4 Silence, 3 Duress mainboard (or such) for value in certain matches because I feel it's very redundant at some point.
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Something like this:
-2 Silence
-1 C.Moxen
-1 I.Tutor
=
+4 Therapys
Leaving the 3 Duresses in main.
Leaving the EtW main even if I expect massive removal, I do not expect more than 3 copies of (Pernicius D. OR Golgari Charm OR E.E. OR Maelstrom Pulse)
I'm not sure about the C.Moxen, but when looking at the Timo Strategies He sided out 1 Moxen leaving 14 Mana Producers which is what we have have with this strategy,
I won't side out any Gitaxian and I would prefer Poder in Base rather than I.T. To smooth the deck.
Opinions?
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Like what you said about playing hundreds of games and learning averages from the experience. In the end it's not objective, Legacy is a format for pet cards and decks. People's opinions run strong and personal.
Unless Dragon's Maze prints anything for this deck, or something that makes other decks popular (however I don't think they'll print two Deathrite Shaman caliber cards in one set), there's really little innovation to take place in this thread. Just enthusiasts sharing results and hopefully helping others.
Hi guys,
I've been playing some games with the deck but couldn't really playtest it intensively.
I read lots of posts/reports/topic about the deck but couldn't not find any sideboard plan vs some deck like Show and Tell, Reanimator, Shardless BUG (is that similar to BUG control?
As I plan playing the deck do the GP strasbourg this week end, could anyone give me some tips on those match up?
Thanks :)
I don't think MD Cabal Therapies and SB Xantid Swarms are mutually exclusive if you leave the mana base for 5 colors, but as far as Cabl Therapy vs Silence I think the issue is that a resolved Silence is much better than a resolved Cabal Therapy because your Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns plan will proceed uninterrupted by a new hand of potential counter magic where in the case of Cabal Therapy your Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns plan is more of a gamble so you end up leaning on Empty the Warrens and flashback Cabal Therapy which could be a liability.
Cabal Therapy is definitely better vs discard strategies tho', I think a lot of people are putting too much faith in being able to Chant walk and go off the next turn and it doesn't always work out that way unfortunately.
I don't think there's like "one and only" disruption configuration, I play 4 Duress and 3 Silence for instance because God hates me and I can't draw a gold land for shit even when I play 7 of them MD, and I don't think anyone can really say definitively that it's strictly worse than 4 Silence and 3 Duress vs a whole metagame because the extra discard spell is going to have pluses and minuses vs this and that.
I agree, the unique reason to play Silence vs Therapy is probably this: Makes D.R. stronger. At least in my meta Therapys have been strong vs sooo much discard and Blue.
By the moment I'l try the Therapys in Side, but full of them. As said I've fallen in love with Therapy...
Having in mind these things, maybe I post you privately to see options of a Black TES, as said, in my meta ChantingWalk the Oponent is an option, but remote, maybe as remote as Silence + D.R., and because of this I maybe prefer Full of discard package, and then Xantid can come in from Side as you say!. I'll send you my proposed list. This one for sure will have EtW main!
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Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Try reading the primer. For S&T and Reanimator, now that we're back on Xantid Swarm, you could potentially not bring in both Therapies, cut a Silence, or cut an Infernal Tutor to bring in both Swarms. You don't want to overboard protection though. Shardless BUG should be a joke. At most cut a Silence, Ponder, or Infernal Tutor for a Therapy and be sure to play around Engineered Plague if they know what they're doing. Otherwise, just be careful for Mindbreak Trap and roll them.
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My bad, it seems I just missed the show & tell part!
Thanks for the reminder :p
I see that you guys are often siding out a infernal tutor, what the reason of this?
Good job for the rest, primers and discussion are really deep :)
Siding out Infernal Tutor gives you a lot of play options, while making room to side in hate/bounce.
Example play:
Play some spells
Drop 2 Lion's eye Diamond
Cast burning Wish, respond by cracking the two Diamonds for BBBBBB or BBBRRR
Wish for Infernal tutor, search for Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens
New Report!! Check it out
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