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Thread: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

  1. #3001

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by davelin View Post
    Opening hand - EtW, RoF, City, Chrome Mox, Silence, RoF, Wish

    BUG T1 - Mulls to 6, Polluted Delta for Underground Sea, casts Ancestral Visions
    TES T1 - Draw Gitaxian Probe, cast Probe (18 life) see Flusterstorm, FoW, Wasteland and Shardless Agent. Draw and play Gemstone.

    Anything obvious I could've done differently or just one of those games?
    You could've cast Silence, Mox (Wish), RoF, RoF, EtW for 12 Goblins.

  2. #3002

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    You could've cast Silence, Mox (Wish), RoF, RoF, EtW for 12 Goblins.
    Smacks forehead!

  3. #3003
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I'm sceptical about Capet for the current meta. It's not helpful if I face discard-heavy decks near every round (sans RUG Delver and OmniTell) which is an effect of DRS/A.Decay being a central part of the Metagame.

    For the matchups I would side in CoF (Tempo and to consider: S&T) I fixed the problem of being blocked by Daze, Pierce, etc. a while ago for doing calculations about adding the 4th Fetchlad and ending up with it in place of the 3rd Mox and I'm full aware of natural T1/2 EtW/AN suffering from that.

    It's a metagame decision, because I was very successful battling Heavy discard with stable mana and in Germany the Dark Mavericks and German T.hold(BURG with DRS + Delver + Nimble Mongoose + Probe + Thoughtseize + Daze) take over.
    Well you wouldn't be siding it in against BUG decks. It would be for the RUG/UWR/Grixis tempo decks and Miracles/various control decks as well as the Blade decks (Perhaps maybe Omni/Sneak, I haven't figured that out yet). Hey dude, if you want to play an additional land go right for it, I can't control your deck list - but I don't agree with your decision.

    I'm also considering a Tropical Island and a third Xantid Swarm in our sideboard since the Bee would help in our worst match-ups (Omni/Sneak&Show/Reanimator). The land in theory could also be good versus Tempo decks, but I'm unsure if it would be a good idea to side it in against a deck like RUG.
    Last edited by Bryant Cook; 09-15-2013 at 12:07 PM.

  4. #3004
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    Well you wouldn't be siding it in against BUG decks. It would be for the RUG/UWR/Grixis tempo decks and Miracles/various control decks as well as the Blade decks (Perhaps maybe Omni/Sneak, I haven't figured that out yet). Hey dude, if you want to play an additional land go right for it, I can't control your deck list - but I don't agree with your decision.

    I'm also considering a Tropical Island and a third Xantid Swarm in our sideboard since the Bee would help in our worst match-ups (Omni/Sneak&Show/Reanimator). The land in theory could also be good versus Tempo decks, but I'm unsure if it would be a good idea to side it in against a deck like RUG.
    What would you board out for that Tropical and which matchups did you have in mind for siding it in?

    The 13th Land is an approach to tackle all the tempo decks locally via more stable mana. I asume your idea about Carpet and the Tropical share that goal.

    I just have doubts because the new BURG Tempo archtype isn't sitting on Daze and Pierce, waiting for your Carpet to negate them but runs active disruption in form of discard (especially Grixis Delver with Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy). I have more issues with them picking my hand appart than with my mana overall. It's not that Carpet makes more than 2 mana against Tempo

    Just an idea to tackle the Euro-meta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  5. #3005
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    What would you board out for that Tropical and which matchups did you have in mind for siding it in?

    The 13th Land is an approach to tackle all the tempo decks locally via more stable mana. I asume your idea about Carpet and the Tropical share that goal.

    I just have doubts because the new BURG Tempo archtype isn't sitting on Daze and Pierce, waiting for your Carpet to negate them but runs active disruption in form of discard (especially Grixis Delver with Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy). I have more issues with them picking my hand appart than with my mana overall. It's not that Carpet makes more than 2 mana against Tempo

    Just an idea to tackle the Euro-meta
    I haven't really figured out that goal yet. I normally sideboard out an Infernal Tutor for a Cabal Therapy in the tempo match-ups. I would likely side out a Ponder and keep the third Chrome Mox in the deck. I pretty much only side down to two Mox against slow blue decks - the more traditional Esperblade or Miracles. I could see siding in Tropical in those match-ups, perhaps?

    I like that we would have a searchable green source for Xantid and Decay. I dislike that I would have to change my fetch-land configuration (Oh well).

    But I really think the third Xantid could really improve bad match-ups. I'll say this, I haven't given-up on Carpet yet. I think it deserves more testing.

    I haven't really had to deal with this BURG deck yet, but Carpet is actually really fucking good against the Grixis Young Pyromancer decks. It's an on table mana-source that doesn't get hit by discard that continually produces mana meaning that top-decked tutor effects are much better.

  6. #3006

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Hello
    I' m a European player. I made some Top's and won 2 tournaments with Bryant's list.
    I think the list is awesome and don't need any changes.
    The strenght of the sideboard is that plays the best generic cards to battle any matchup. Play specific cards like Carpet of Flowers hurts this strenght.
    Not playing IGG for me is a mistake. It's an other path to victory and the most powerful storm engine against non blue decks.
    Don't change the list please, it works perfect.
    Regards and excuse me for my bad english...

  7. #3007
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by albertomp1985 View Post
    Hello
    I' m a European player. I made some Top's and won 2 tournaments with Bryant's list.
    I think the list is awesome and don't need any changes.
    The strenght of the sideboard is that plays the best generic cards to battle any matchup. Play specific cards like Carpet of Flowers hurts this strenght.
    Not playing IGG for me is a mistake. It's an other path to victory and the most powerful storm engine against non blue decks.
    Don't change the list please, it works perfect.
    Regards and excuse me for my bad english...
    As Bryant said, feel free to play a list YOU are happy with. Begging that the deck should not adapt to a changing metagame or be improved is total nonsense
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  8. #3008
    Rob Rogers
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post

    The 13th Land is an approach to tackle all the tempo decks locally via more stable mana. I asume your idea about Carpet and the Tropical share that goal.

    I just have doubts because the new BURG Tempo archtype isn't sitting on Daze and Pierce, waiting for your Carpet to negate them but runs active disruption in form of discard
    Except for the fact thar BURG plays zero discard spells total in the 75. Sure there's Grixis, but that deck is completely different and Bryant seems to like Carpet against them, so it's more than likely a good card there.

    I think Carpet is a good idea. If they can't counter it, it's really tough for them to win. If they do counter it they risk just losing next turn. Looking at their sideboard strategy against Storm, they take out half their clock for more counters. Their general plan is +2 Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm, +2Pyroblast +1 Nihil(terrible)//-2 Mongeese, -2 Goyf, -2 Decay, -1 Bolt. I really disagree with this plan here and it's possible other BURG players do as well, but if they are siding like this, they just scoop to Goblins every time. Also they are siding out answers to Vagina of Vaginas..erm I mean... Carpet of Flowers.
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  9. #3009

    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    As Bryant said, feel free to play a list YOU are happy with. Begging that the deck should not adapt to a changing metagame or be improved is total nonsense
    This.

    Bryant changing his list to adapt to his metagame doesn't force every TES player to do the same. If any changes are clearly wrong for him, his testing should eventually make that clear. Sometimes the only way to really test if a wishboard target is necessary is to go without it and see if you actually miss it.

    It does seem like the IGG and 3rd Abrupt Decay are the weakest links in the sideboard - they're both very narrow cards because (a) the games where you actually need IGG to win are rare and (b) the third decay comes in against only a few decks compared to the first two. They're not flexible generic cards at all. As a result, if there are different narrow cards that are better against your metagame, it makes sense to replace them. At the moment, I'm considering leaving IGG intact, and replacing the third Decay with another Fetch, because I wouldn't mind another card against wasteland / stifle decks (probably boarding out a Ponder, as Bryant suggests.)

  10. #3010
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    I put a tropical island in the SB over the IGG (which was rarely used, and hasn't been missed much yet), but my regional meta still points towards 3 decays, and they've been good. So I've taken a half step towards the more mana (carpet) plan. Reliable swarms and decays, with an extra land against wasteland is very rewarding.

  11. #3011
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Did some testing tonight against RUG.

    I tested with a sideboard of 17 cards (Two Carpet and then 3rd Xantid/Tropical). I tested each 15 cards sideboard against RUG (All games post-board). The additional land was marginally good, there were two situations out of 10 games where Tropical was relevant. One of them was that Tropical was the last possible land I could search for, the other being it provided a mana after seeing two activated Wastelands. Carpet was phenomenal the three games I drew it out of five or six, but that was to be expected.

    I haven't had a chance to test against Reanimator/Omni/Sneak with the third Bug but I imagine it's just as good as two bugs with a higher concentration of them in the deck.

    As of right now, I'm leaning toward the third Xantid and a Tropical in the sideboard. But that could change?

  12. #3012
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    An additional land in the side is not a bad idea at all. You could board it in against Canadian Thresh (and other mana denial decks), and you could use it against decks that don't require you to play 7+ protection spells (IE all the very good matchups), improving your entire deck a bit:

    Siding -4 Silence, -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Abrupt Decay +2 Cabal Therapy, +1 fetch land.

    In this way you have all the usual hate you would want to use, AND you've improved the deck itself a bit (one more land = lower chance of no-land mulligan & more initial mana = higher chance of going off quickly). This would lower the chance of losing to a good matchup.

    By the way, the fact that Bryant lost a game against that Goblins player due to a Mindbreak Trap is a very rare thing. A Goblins deck that plays such narrow cards in the side normally doesn't score well enough to go top-8 in a tourney of that size. He must have been really lucky. Of course he deserves credit for the fact that he played well (which I am sure he did) but Goblins just isn't a very good deck right now.

  13. #3013
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    An additional land in the side is not a bad idea at all. You could board it in against Canadian Thresh (and other mana denial decks), and you could use it against decks that don't require you to play 7+ protection spells (IE all the very good matchups), improving your entire deck a bit:

    Siding -4 Silence, -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Abrupt Decay +2 Cabal Therapy, +1 fetch land.

    In this way you have all the usual hate you would want to use, AND you've improved the deck itself a bit (one more land = lower chance of no-land mulligan & more initial mana = higher chance of going off quickly). This would lower the chance of losing to a good matchup.

    By the way, the fact that Bryant lost a game against that Goblins player due to a Mindbreak Trap is a very rare thing. A Goblins deck that plays such narrow cards in the side normally doesn't score well enough to go top-8 in a tourney of that size. He must have been really lucky. Of course he deserves credit for the fact that he played well (which I am sure he did) but Goblins just isn't a very good deck right now.
    Yeah... I'm not playing a fetchland.

  14. #3014
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Hmmmm ... we're testing a third CoV in the board atm and a Pyroclasm against Elves, Tempo, Goblins and Hatebears ... I hate Pyroclasm but will test that teammate Suggestion...

    I think that's redundant and i'm unsure about IGG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  15. #3015
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    I'm not playing a fetchland.
    Indeed, I should have posted an argument for mentioning a fetch instead of the Tropical.

    The Tropical does have its uses:
    - Fetchable green for Swarm, Decay.
    - Fourth land to fetch if a game goes long against a mana denial strategy.
    But it also has its disadvantages:
    - Doesn't tap for the main combo colours B and R.
    - WTF, it doesn't tap for B or R?? Oh wait, I mentioned that already.

    So one disadvantage for two plus points. One of the pros is a doubtful one, since you could also play a Sea or Volcanic, but I'll let the Trop have two versus one in pros/cons analysis. But the con is a very serious one. Let's not forget we're playing TES here, not ANT.

    ANT has 8-9 fetch, additional cantrips and in general a slower game plan. Next to that ANT only needs red for Past in Flames or maybe a Wish. Often the red dual isn't even needed since that colour can be drawn from LED, or occaionally a Petal. So ANT has less issues in playing lands that don't tap for red, since it's not an important colour anyway, and it's only rarely needed as initial mana. We know that one black mana as initial combo mana is often enough, so this allows ANT to play more lands that don't tap for either B or R.

    TES is a different beast. It has to be able to work well with just one or two lands, since it only plays 12/13. Also it plays no basics at all, so Wasteland can be a serious issue. Next to that TES plays both Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame, so the situation will come up pretty often that TES needs both R and B as initial mana to be able to go off at all. Having a land that doesn't tap for either colour seems like a very great risk. But... I did like the idea of adding a land to the sideboard, because of the reasons I posted, so I would recommend we try a fetch instead of the Tropical. The fetch is good for our cantrips and it gives us an additional initial mana source. This should help lower the chance of having to take a no-land-mulligan, and in general increase our odds to go off as soon as possible (better cantrips, more mana in the deck).

    During my tournament play I very often came across matchups where I wanted to sideboard -4 Silence, -3 Duress, +2 Cabal Therapy (or in my case Thoughtseize, because I played that at the time), +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 card that increases my chance of going off in general. I never had that card, but a fetch could be that card.

    Long list of arguments and explanation, but still it's only an idea. I'm not saying it's the way to go, because I myself also feel that adding a random 'good TES card' to the sideboard should be a wasted sideboard slot.


    One other thing: I also disagree with the cutting of Ill-Gotten Gains. It's an engine that often works when others don't (or just with terrible odds, like Returns). I still use it every now and then, and I feel sort of vulnerable without it. (Come to think of it though, perhaps siding in the Gains could be an option to increase the chances of going off very fast.)

  16. #3016
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Indeed, I should have posted an argument for mentioning a fetch instead of the Tropical.

    The Tropical does have its uses:
    - Fetchable green for Swarm, Decay.
    - Fourth land to fetch if a game goes long against a mana denial strategy.
    But it also has its disadvantages:
    - Doesn't tap for the main combo colours B and R.
    - WTF, it doesn't tap for B or R?? Oh wait, I mentioned that already.

    So one disadvantage for two plus points. One of the pros is a doubtful one, since you could also play a Sea or Volcanic, but I'll let the Trop have two versus one in pros/cons analysis. But the con is a very serious one. Let's not forget we're playing TES here, not ANT.

    ANT has 8-9 fetch, additional cantrips and in general a slower game plan. Next to that ANT only needs red for Past in Flames or maybe a Wish. Often the red dual isn't even needed since that colour can be drawn from LED, or occaionally a Petal. So ANT has less issues in playing lands that don't tap for red, since it's not an important colour anyway, and it's only rarely needed as initial mana. We know that one black mana as initial combo mana is often enough, so this allows ANT to play more lands that don't tap for either B or R.

    TES is a different beast. It has to be able to work well with just one or two lands, since it only plays 12/13. Also it plays no basics at all, so Wasteland can be a serious issue. Next to that TES plays both Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame, so the situation will come up pretty often that TES needs both R and B as initial mana to be able to go off at all. Having a land that doesn't tap for either colour seems like a very great risk. But... I did like the idea of adding a land to the sideboard, because of the reasons I posted, so I would recommend we try a fetch instead of the Tropical. The fetch is good for our cantrips and it gives us an additional initial mana source. This should help lower the chance of having to take a no-land-mulligan, and in general increase our odds to go off as soon as possible (better cantrips, more mana in the deck).

    During my tournament play I very often came across matchups where I wanted to sideboard -4 Silence, -3 Duress, +2 Cabal Therapy (or in my case Thoughtseize, because I played that at the time), +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 card that increases my chance of going off in general. I never had that card, but a fetch could be that card.

    Long list of arguments and explanation, but still it's only an idea. I'm not saying it's the way to go, because I myself also feel that adding a random 'good TES card' to the sideboard should be a wasted sideboard slot.


    One other thing: I also disagree with the cutting of Ill-Gotten Gains. It's an engine that often works when others don't (or just with terrible odds, like Returns). I still use it every now and then, and I feel sort of vulnerable without it. (Come to think of it though, perhaps siding in the Gains could be an option to increase the chances of going off very fast.)
    Since cutting Ill-Gotten Gains I've played in two full events and tested roughly 35 games against RUG. Not once did I want Ill-Gotten Gains, not to mention the last time I used 'Gains it could've been Past in Flames if I wasn't feeling lazy. It's simply just a safety net at this point.

    I haven't had any issues with Tropical yet, I say yet, because your points are valid but I think the Tropical could be necessary if we decide to add a third Xantid Swarm. Sideboarding in three cards that want to be cast on the first turn without a Tropical to search for could be difficult.

    I think playing a fetchland in the sideboard is very questionable.

  17. #3017
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    Since cutting Ill-Gotten Gains I've played in two full events and tested roughly 35 games against RUG. Not once did I want Ill-Gotten Gains, not to mention the last time I used 'Gains it could've been Past in Flames if I wasn't feeling lazy. It's simply just a safety net at this point.
    Against Canadian Thresh I also don't want Gains, but against Jund, Maverick, Goblins, Deat&Taxes and so on it can be a really nice engine. It saved my butt against D&T during my last Storm tourney and I could have used it against Jund if I wasn't so confident of my Empty the Warrens (which ended up running into his one-of Maelstrom Pulse...). Gains meant waiting a turn in that case, but the chances of him hitting a new discard spell were of course not very high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    I haven't had any issues with Tropical yet, I say yet, because your points are valid but I think the Tropical could be necessary if we decide to add a third Xantid Swarm. Sideboarding in three cards that want to be cast on the first turn without a Tropical to search for could be difficult.
    Would you think it's a really bad idea if we tried Bayou instead? That one at least gets to tap for one major combo colour, as well as a protection colour. It doesn't tap for blue though, which is a pretty big deal...
    (Heck I'm even thinking about adding a City of Brass now. Unfetchable, but does tap for everything we want.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    I think playing a fetchland in the sideboard is very questionable.
    I'd be the first to admit it sounds rediculous, but if you only have 12 lands main deck, and a sideboard slot left, the arguments are there to at least give it a shot. It's pretty hard though to calculate how much better it makes your general odds. I'm sure it's marginal, but I have no idea how to calculate the advantages.

  18. #3018
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Against Canadian Thresh I also don't want Gains, but against Jund, Maverick, Goblins, Deat&Taxes and so on it can be a really nice engine. It saved my butt against D&T during my last Storm tourney and I could have used it against Jund if I wasn't so confident of my Empty the Warrens (which ended up running into his one-of Maelstrom Pulse...). Gains meant waiting a turn in that case, but the chances of him hitting a new discard spell were of course not very high.

    Would you think it's a really bad idea if we tried Bayou instead? That one at least gets to tap for one major combo colour, as well as a protection colour. It doesn't tap for blue though, which is a pretty big deal...
    (Heck I'm even thinking about adding a City of Brass now. Unfetchable, but does tap for everything we want.)

    I'd be the first to admit it sounds rediculous, but if you only have 12 lands main deck, and a sideboard slot left, the arguments are there to at least give it a shot. It's pretty hard though to calculate how much better it makes your general odds. I'm sure it's marginal, but I have no idea how to calculate the advantages.
    Because I'm sure for some reason neither Past in Flames or Diminishing Returns could've gotten there, right? Safety net. Think about how often it's actually used in events, it's pretty damn rare.

    I believe that tapping for cantripping mana is a lot more relevant than tapping for combo colored mana for the sideboarded land slot. I think the cantripping mana is more relevant than the ability to tap for a red or black. Otherwise, we would've added Badlands years ago.

    Having a land to help cast difficult spells to cast is more important in my eyes than an additional shuffle effect that doesn't really improve the deck. It's a wasted space.

  19. #3019
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    Because I'm sure for some reason neither Past in Flames or Diminishing Returns could've gotten there, right? Safety net. Think about how often it's actually used in events, it's pretty damn rare.
    Have to agree. Just curious though, what do you think has changed from a year ago when you convinced me to play IGG? Is IGG a meta consideration or a playstyle one?

    Went 4-0 at a local 30-man with your recommendation of -1 AD, -1 IGG, +1 Trop, +1 Swarm. I also tried out -1 Chrome Mox, +1 fetch in the main despite it seeming like a step in a less aggressive direction.

    Sneak & Show 2-1
    Shardless BUG 2-0
    Rw Goblins 2-0
    Rw Goblins 2-1

    Sneak and Show game 3 was pretty interesting. She kept a 7-card hand with no Leyline and my Swarm resolved on turn 1. She Pondered and kept. On my second turn I Brainstormed into a hand that could cast Empty for like 12, pass, or Diminishing Returns with nothing floating. I decided to DimRet thinking that she must be pretty likely to kill me the next turn, and after the match she confirmed that. I didn't draw any IMSs, but just won the next turn.

    I lost G1 to the second goblins player thanks to maindeck Thalia. So hateful. I got him back by winning G2 after he Mindbreak Trapped my t1 Infernal Tutor with 5 floating. He didn't draw a third land or a W source.

    So I brought in the Trop against Goblins and S&S. It was never relevant in the match, but I'm definitely not opposed to having more lands against Goblins. I boarded out the 4th fetch for it against S&S, and against goblins I brough out 4 Silence, 2 Duress for the Trop, 2 AD, 2 CoV, and 1 Cabal Therapy. I'm definitely not opposed to this build moving forwards, deserves more testing. I never had a double Chrome Mox hand, which made me happy, but I bricked on an IMS off an Ad Naus from 13. Won on my next turn though. I'm going to continue testing with the 4th fetch, but I'm much less sure if it's right than the board changes.

    I think that Carpet is too narrow, but I'm really not a fan of the card in general. I like something that helps our worse, common matchups like Show and Tell and Reanimator.
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  20. #3020
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Have to agree. Just curious though, what do you think has changed from a year ago when you convinced me to play IGG? Is IGG a meta consideration or a playstyle one?
    A year ago, Maverick was still huge and Deathrite Shaman didn't exist. Maverick couldn't interact and Deathrite wasn't making it worse.

    As of right now, if the Invitational was tomorrow I would run three Chrome Mox and the Tropical/Swarm (3) in the sideboard.

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