[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Lemnear]

I think there's a big misconception with the fact that basics slow you down. You can win with basic swamp/island on turn one just as easily as you could with Underground Sea, the same could be said for turns two or three - the real difference is that they allow for a longer game if need be. I've been playing with the basics for more than a few months at this point and there's yet to be a situation where I thought, "If this Island was Volcanic Island I would of had a turn one kill."

You got me wrong. It isn't about deciding which land you fetch to be able to kill turn 1/2/3, my comment was about "autopilot-fetching" the Island as first land against anything, no matter if that harms your turn 2/3 or not (therefore the focus on the third IMS). That behaviour is that I consider slowing down the deck

[Bryant Cook]

You got me wrong. It isn't about deciding which land you fetch to be able to kill turn 1/2/3, my comment was about "autopilot-fetching" the Island as first land against anything, no matter if that harms your turn 2/3 or not (therefore the focus on the third IMS). That behaviour is that I consider slowing down the deck

I would agree with that general sentiment.

[Final Fortune]

You got me wrong. It isn't about deciding which land you fetch to be able to kill turn 1/2/3, my comment was about "autopilot-fetching" the Island as first land against anything, no matter if that harms your turn 2/3 or not (therefore the focus on the third IMS). That behaviour is that I consider slowing down the deck

That's a misquote, I don't auto-pilot fetch Island vs anything, it depends on the composition of the hand and whether or not the opponent is unknown. If I can afford to fetch an Island in order to cantrip and wait for my second land to produce black vs an unknown opponent then I'd rather wait for the second land to produce black than risk a Wasteland - it's essentially the same with Swamp and discard as well now. Furthermore you obviously deviate based on whether or not you have Gitaxian Probe in your opening hand or you're on the draw and see their first land drop, I just played that way because originally every fetch was blue since Tropical Island was in the SB and thus Island was the only basic.

My main point is that fetching Island doesn't slow the deck so much that it relegates you to winning on T3 necessarily, and even if it does winning on T3 isn't exactly slow either. You seem to have a bias against Island and believe it always color screws you because you can't guarantee two lands that produce B/R on T2, but frankly I just haven't had that problem myself and considering the deck used to need UBRW regulary I find it kind of puzzling that you don't think the deck can have UBR by T2/3 because of 1 or 2 basics. Cantrips and artifact mana generally sort out the color requirements fwiw.

[Lemnear]

That's a misquote, I don't auto-pilot fetch Island vs anything, it depends on the composition of the hand and whether or not the opponent is unknown. If I can afford to fetch an Island in order to cantrip and wait for my second land to produce black vs an unknown opponent then I'd rather wait for the second land to produce black than risk a Wasteland - it's essentially the same with Swamp and discard as well now. Furthermore you obviously deviate based on whether or not you have Gitaxian Probe in your opening hand or you're on the draw and see their first land drop, I just played that way because originally every fetch was blue since Tropical Island was in the SB and thus Island was the only basic.

My main point is that fetching Island doesn't slow the deck so much that it relegates you to winning on T3 necessarily, and even if it does winning on T3 isn't exactly slow either. You seem to have a bias against Island and believe it always color screws you because you can't guarantee two lands that produce B/R on T2, but frankly I just haven't had that problem myself and considering the deck used to need UBRW regulary I find it kind of puzzling that you don't think the deck can have UBR by T2/3 because of 1 or 2 basics. Cantrips and artifact mana generally sort out the color requirements fwiw.

No, I don't think you can calculate with UBR turn two as a given standard against Stifle, Wasteland, Chalice, Spell Pierces, etc. If you shift your gameplan more towards turn 3 or 4 to actually have a more realistic chance to assemble that UBR mana to be able to combo off (given you started with Island) you not only go into ANT territory or critical turns but seriously harm your Ad Nauseams and RoFs like I mentioned on the FB Group. The complete point about playing TES over ANT is getting absurd if you aim for turn 3-4 kills because of sheer fear of being hit by a random wasteland.

If you calculate with 3 IMS anyways against Wasteland it does only make a difference against Daze if it is Island + Swamp + Petal or U.Sea + volcanic + Petal if we look at the sheer ability to produce BR by turn two.

Going for the basics is fine if you KNOW there is wasteland in your opponents hand or if your opponent runs any wasteland-lock like via Loam, but deciding to go for Island because of fear is a mistake I mentioned even back at the time Bryant came up with the idea in this thread

[Asthereal]

I feel we may be discussing the wrong things regarding Basics in TES. Most people here are good enough players to calculate and decide which lands to fetch to accomplish the highest chance to win a certain game from a certain point. Besides, whether decisions are difficult should not be an argument for or against playing a certain setup. The main problem is that you sometimes draw a Basic when it's bad. A Swamp when you want to be casting cantrips, or the Island when you need a combo colour. This happens to me quite often in ANT, which already plays more lands than TES, but generally requires no initial red mana. This scares me away from Basics in TES. Maybe unjustified, because I haven't tested it thoroughly, but this is my main concern.

PS. I have requested access to the TES group on Facebook. If you see a request from a guy with an (in English) unpronouncable name, and a profile pic with chess pieces, that's me.

PPS. Holy shizz Bryant, that was fast! Do you have the day off?

[Lemnear]

I feel we may be discussing the wrong things regarding Basics in TES. Most people here are good enough players to calculate and decide which lands to fetch to accomplish the highest chance to win a certain game from a certain point. Besides, whether decisions are difficult should not be an argument for or against playing a certain setup. The main problem is that you sometimes draw a Basic when it's bad. A Swamp when you want to be casting cantrips, or the Island when you need a combo colour. This happens to me quite often in ANT, which already plays more lands than TES, but generally requires no initial red mana. This scares me away from Basics in TES. Maybe unjustified, because I haven't tested it thoroughly, but this is my main concern.

PS. I have requested access to the TES group on Facebook. If you see a request from a guy with an (in English) unpronouncable name, and a profile pic with chess pieces, that's me.

PPS. Holy shizz Bryant, that was fast! Do you have the day off?

I share your concerns. You get either punished by the Basics if you want the Belcher mode off 1-2 IMS or the game drags into the turn 3-4 range where the lower Individual card powerlevel really hurts compared to ANT plus the know problems with the red initial mana.

On the FB Group: we have hit 97 members today! Wasn't aware there are that many peeps even interrested in the deck lol

[Alix444]

So I finally got to play testing against my friend playing elves, I had a blast fizzling left and right. I think I was getting too ambitious with my lines. How often does everyone win with an empty for 12 goblins or something close to that? And maybe my ad nauseams were just bad too.... This deck is crazy stylish and a blast to play.

[Lemnear]

So I finally got to play testing against my friend playing elves, I had a blast fizzling left and right. I think I was getting too ambitious with my lines. How often does everyone win with an empty for 12 goblins or something close to that? And maybe my ad nauseams were just bad too.... This deck is crazy stylish and a blast to play.

12 is at least not enough against Elves. You need 14 to get around DRS/Nettle blocks before they trample over you ~turn 3 otherwise. AN are rarely bad in this deck of you know what you are looking for and floating the right colors. Being greedy with AN and drawing yourself basically and/or literally dead is a no-go

[Ebonclaw]

So I've slotted Diminishing Returns back into the board because I sometimes found myself really wishing I had it when reaching with a Burning Wish- the local meta doesn't feature a lot of blue- and the other day I really really screwed dredge over with it, even though I didn't win that turn. Storm players looking to hate on dredge might do well to squeeze this back into the board- it still performs its originally intended function as well as it ever did if you're careful in its deployment against some decks. I still also pack the PiF engine as well.
I'd be interested in knowing how the higher level players feel about bringing this card back- is the only thing stopping it the difference in local vs national metas, or do you find PiF to be a blatantly superior engine?

[Lemnear]

So I've slotted Diminishing Returns back into the board because I sometimes found myself really wishing I had it when reaching with a Burning Wish- the local meta doesn't feature a lot of blue- and the other day I really really screwed dredge over with it, even though I didn't win that turn. Storm players looking to hate on dredge might do well to squeeze this back into the board- it still performs its originally intended function as well as it ever did if you're careful in its deployment against some decks. I still also pack the PiF engine as well.
I'd be interested in knowing how the higher level players feel about bringing this card back- is the only thing stopping it the difference in local vs national metas, or do you find PiF to be a blatantly superior engine?

Against non-blue you can reach for EtW and win in two swings instead of just hoping to draw into the nuts with DimRet. Dredge is a marginal popular deck and also presents a race you can win with Goblins or AN anyways (especially Manaless Dredge).

The overall Problem of DimRet remains the average format metagame and the Roulette factor. It doesn't serve it's original purpose anymore (life independant wishable engine). Between PIF, which serves a similar role, and EtW, there is no space for relics like DimRet or IGG.

[paeng4983]

Participated at yesterday's GPT here wherein we had it 5 rds cut to top4.
But the top 4 decided to split the prizes and let one of them get the bye.
My MUs were:

Grixis Tempo 2-1
Miracle 2-0
Belcher 2-1
BUG 2-0
BUG id

After swiss I landed first.

@Cook, How was your day at PA?

[Bryant Cook]

I went to The Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravangza 2 this past weekend, I think it was a productive event. I certainly feel my record doesn’t reflect the decklist.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames


Round 1 - Dark Maverick:

G1- He mulligans to five on the play and leads off with Bayou before passing. I put him on Shardless BUG or Jund because Elves would’ve likely have played a one drop. My hand is Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm, Burning Wish and Lion’s Eye Diamond. I draw for the turn and it’s another land. I decide I’d rather save the Probes for the following turn’s storm count - on top of that, if I’m hit with Thoughtseize or Hymn they’re essentially a blank. I play Polluted Delta to act as a control deck and pass. Savannah into Gaddock Teeg - well then. I draw for turn and it’s Duress. I fire off both Gitaxian Probes revealing Sylvan Library, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary. Drawing Rite of Flame and Cabal Therapy. I Brainstorm (didn’t take notes on this), fetch and Duress away Sylvan Library. Wasteland’s my Underground Sea and plays Thalia, I slowly lose after this.

G2-I mulligan and play Cabal Therapy on Thalia turn one, he has Forest, Dryad Arbor, Horizon Canopy, Cannonist, Hierarch, SFM and Green Sun’s Zenith. He draws, thinks and plays Canopy into Mother of Ruins. I draw and pay Gitaxian Probe, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy (SFM) and Empty the Warrens (Naturally). Flash back both Therapys on GSZ and Cannonist. His next two draw steps are Deathrite Shaman and Green Sun’s Zenith for a second Shaman to recover and eventually win the game. There was a situation while grinding in the mid-game where if I had a Grapeshot in my sideboard I couldve killed his team forcing him to tap Mother so it couldn’t block that turn and kill both his Shamans. Where neither ‘Clasm nor Masacre would’ve worked.

0-1

Round 2 - MUD:

G1 - I Probe him turn one to see Ugin, Sundering Titan, Staff of Domination, Wurmcoil Engine and three lands. Shockingly, I won this game.

G2 - At one point he had two Trinisphere and two Lodestone Golem. Shockingly, I didn’t win that game.

G3 - My opening hand is Bloodstained Mire, Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Abrupt Decay and Rite of Flame. I have two options, I can play Bloodstained Mire, Chrome Mox (Imprinting Infernal Tutor) and Lion’s Eye Diamond and pass. This way, I can destroy Chalice on turn one and then untap and Ad Nauseam if I draw a mana source. This loses to a second Chalice that turn or if he can cast Trinisphere. The second option is to make Goblins and hope he doesn’t have Ratchet Bomb in his deck. I took the ladder.

1-1

Round 3 - Sneak & Show:

G1 - I Probe him turn one to reveal a pair of Force of Will, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Ancient Tomb, Volcanic Island and Emrakul. I follow up with Cabal Therapy, he Forces pitching Force. He plays Volcanic Island. I play Ponder. He plays Show and Tell, I put in a land - he puts in Emrakul. I untap and hardcast Ad Nauseam (4 lands and Rite of Flame!), it resolves.

G2 - He plays Volcanic and passes. I play Xantid Swarm, he Forces pitching Spell Pierce. He draws and passes missing his land drop, over the next three turns I shred his hand with 3 discard spells including Burning Wish for Thoughtseize. Following this, I Infernal for Ad Nauseam after leaving him with Sneak Attacks and an Emrakul.

2-1

Round 4 - Elves:

G1 - I have turn two Ad Nauseam, Elves can’t interact.

G2 - I asked his opening hand after the game, he said it was Bayou, Thoughtseize, Therapy, Therapy, Natural Order, Visionary and a fetch. I got wrecked this game but did manage to see him Natural Order for Ruric Thar.

G3 - A super long game where I ended up casting all 4 of my Burning Wishes, it was really a discard battle.The first Wish was for Pyroclasm to clear his board. The second Wish was to get Void Snare after a Natural Order for Ruric Thar. He says okay, I reach for my sideboard, he says take 6. I say I’m going to call a judge because I believe he’s missed his trigger, the judge agrees. I get Snare and bounce it. I go to 8 instead of 2. He plays a Deathrite Shaman (which would allow him to cast the Thar on his next turn - only Thar in his hand). I draw a Ponder, draw Brainstorm, fetch so that I can get a look at new cards. Brainstorm, finding the third Burning Wish. Wish for Empty (8 Goblins) and flashback a Therapy. He draws and passes. I draw Duress, play it, he reveals Craterhoof. I attack, he blocks and gains two life. This happens for a few turns, but also finally draws a creature - a second Deathrite Shaman. I draw Infernal Tutor, I only have six lands at this point, no other mana. If I had a Grapeshot in my sideboard, I could attack, let him block and gain life, then kill both using a Grapeshot leaving me with 3-4 Goblins. Instead I Infernal for Wish. I don’t cast it, because he has Therapies in his Graveyard. But if I draw a spell on my turn that I can cast with before Tendrils, I win. He plays Natural Order sacrificing a Deathrite getting another Deathrite as he needed a creature to gain life with or else he would’ve lost. I draw a spell and kill him.

3-1

Round 5 - Jund:

G1 - I play Delta, Sea and Ponder. He plays Bayou into Deathrite. I play Ad Nauseam. Before I kill him, I cast Probe to get more information, he doesn’t concede - he shows me he’s on Jund.

G2 - A longer game. We get to a point where I make 12 Goblins but am actually forced to chump block against his two Goyfs, Bob and Ooze. I kill the Ooze and the Bob. He plays Lilliana. I no longer hand a hand. I draw Infernal, count my lands. I have exactly enough mana where if I get LED next turn I can cast Burning Wish for Past in Flames with a mana floating if I can draw Wish off the top. He shuffles my deck, I actually drew one of my two remaining Burning Wish! Take that line and make 18 Goblins. He reveals the top card of his deck for his draw step and concedes!

4-1

Round 6 - Esper Deathblade:

G1 - Another long grindy game, it comes down to a Clique on my draw step, where I draw Brainstorm that turn and cast it. Hiding both Ad Nauseam and Empty before revealing a ton of mana, Ponder and Probe. He takes a Petal trying to shut me off mana. I draw both cards that turn after a Probe revealing Batterskull, Force of Will and Ponder. I play Dark Ritual which makes him Force or else I could run away with the game. If Lloyd draws a fifth land he could cast his Batterskull. He draws a Wasteland and cuts me off my fifth mana for Ad Nauseam instead by wasting my Volcanic. I draw Ponder, cast it into Therapy. Discard his Batterskull and the following turn make 10 Goblins against his 5 lands and a Clique.

G2 - I don’t have any notes other than “Get crushed, son!”

G3 - We both play Fetchland go for a few turns, on my draw step he Cliques me on turn three. My hand is all gas, I was waiting for an opening. He takes something but it doesn’t matter. I Probe and see True-Name Nemesis, Dig Through Time, Stoneforge Mystic and lands. I Therapy him for Stoneforge, make 16 Goblins and then take Dig. He draws another Dig, casts it but doesn’t find one of his two Zealous Persecution.

5-1

Round 7 - Sneak & Show:

G1 - Similiar to my first go against this deck. I Probe and see a pair of Force of Will, Emrakul, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Volcanic Island and Sneak Attack. I play a Therapy which gets Forced. I cantrip on my next turn, he plays the Sneak but can’t activate. All I can do is make 16 Goblins and flashback hitting Emrakul. I do that leaving him with just Fire/Ice in hand, his two lands and Sneak. He draws Emrakul. Great, but dumb Bryant sacrificed both of his lands before looking at his life total. I was at two. I get pretty visually upset with myself just incase I draw a discard spell, I even say this out loud before drawing for turn. I flip the top card of my deck as I’ve lost, I wish I was lying about this but it was actually Duress. Doesn’t matter though, he reveals that the top card of his deck is Griselbrand… somedraws…

G2 - I don’t know what he was thinking but he taps out with Flusterstorm in hand to play Sneak Attack and passes after I’ve discarded his Force of Will earlier on with a blind Therapy. I Ad Nauseam?

G3 - He plays a turn two Stronghold Gambit, I have a Needle in my hand that I’m looking at. Awkward. I Brainstorm in response hoping to find Xantid Swarm, but I do not. It’s Emrakul. I untap and start counting, I Probe seeing a Force with a blue card. I have two lines of play I can make, with a judge watching and spectators. I make sure my math is correct to not look foolish. I can take the more legal line and play Chrome Mox removing my Cabal Therapy to cast Needle and pray he’s dumb enough to Force it (after all, he’s been playing sloppy and making questionable decisions) then Burning Wish for Tendrils and have mana to cast it. The alternative is to not Imprint on the Mox, cast Therapy discarding his Force and then play Burning Wish. The problem with this is I can’t actually cast the Tendrils of Agony, I’m a mana short. I’d have to hope he just concedes to a Wish and saying, “Grab Tendrils?”

I take the more legal line as he had been counting my mana initially but not towards the end of the turn. He doesn’t Force the Needle but Forces my Wish instead. I talked to the judge who was watching afterward, he said I was bordering slow play with how long my thought process took (however, it was a tough call and it wasn’t going to end in a draw). He said he would’ve been upset with me if I didn’t announce mana floating when casting the Wish and it would’ve looked sketchy. However legal. I don’t know if he would’ve just scooped, oh well.

5-2

Round 8 - Miracles:

G1 - I shred his hand, leaving him with only white cards. I go for Ad Nuaseam, he flops Top and plays Counterspell. No blue card needed for that one. We play draw, go for awhile but by the time I’m ready to go off on the following turn he finally finds a counterbalance.

G2 - I play a turn one Duress taking his top, he has tons of countermagic but only one land. He draws lands for the first few turns, I play Xantid which gets Forced pitching another counterspell. I draw Needle and cast it but it doesn’t impact the game at all. It was a tough call on the Duress, but I was really unsatisfied with Needle. I lose to Clique and Snapcaster.

5-3

Round 9 - Shardless:

I’m actually late to the round as I was in the middle of a transaction with a dealer in a different room. But I’m playing my friend Nick that I drove down with. He tells me we can draw into top 64, but neither of us can top 32 because of our breakers. I tell him that I never got a chance to look at the standings because of the dealer. But I believe him if thats the case. Well, he was wrong. We were 71 & 72 or something along those lines.

As for the record, I felt like I was sort of screwed out of two wins, only really losing against Miracles. Variance happens.

It’s tough to blame him, I was mentally and physically exhausted as well. We left Syracuse at 5:30am to get there on-time at 10. The third person in our car did manage to snag 20th place for a FBB German Badlands with an Abzan deck that I built for him.

The event ran smoothly and I even managed to flip the Japanese foil Onslaught Bloodstained Mire for two Japanese foil Khans Flooded Strands and a Japanese foil Khans Windswept Heath. SA-weeeeet!

As for the decklist, I was really disappointed with Needle and never once wanted Massacre. I also wanted Grapeshot a few times, even against the Esperblade deck I can remember thinking it might’ve been useful in one of the lines I was considering. I want a third Xantid Swarm, still unsure about the other slots.

EDIT: Just realized I didn't do sideboarding, but I'm feeling lazy. I sided in Thoughtseize a decent amount of the time in non-blue matches.

[Togores]

Still tood job and report. Shitt happens.
I would have gonne for the riskier line and do my opp conceding. Its the think i most like about storm. Winings games just because of bluff.

Whats rounds/opponents you sidded out the infernal?

So acording to you your new sb would be:
Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre ----> never used may be take out for?...
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

[sa3xxx]

Yesterday I attended Austrian Legacy Championship qualifier in Bratislava with the exact 75 as on the first page.
There where around 18 players, so 5 rounds + top 8.

1.round : Mono black
Two easy games, blind therapy on hymn game one, then 12 goblins (turn after), game two duress on trinisphere, the tendrils for 14 (enough after his own pox), 2:0
(SB : decays + bayou, out mox, ponder, volcanic island and one other card)

1-0-0

2. round : Nic fit
I loved this match-up because of 2 basic lands :) I had more discard then he did and he had more unimportant cards.
Only remarkable moment was me having storm 7 and enough mana to either go for AN or goblins. I knew about pernicious deeds in his hand, but I got therapy in GY. But he also had Sensei + Fetchland so was quite capable of finding another deeds. I decided to go for AN (on 16hp) and killed him (after the game he showed me deeds in top 3 cards in library, so good call by me) 2:0

(SB : I think none)

2-0-0

3. round : Death & Taxes

First game mulligan to 4 (haven't seen any lands), so first loss was quick. Two other were quick as well, blind therapy on thalia + goblins + flashbacks on possible threads. 2:1

(SB : decay set for duresses I guess)

3-0-0

2 rounds of draws (bant and SnT)

3-0-2

Top 8 : merfolks (worst possible match-up in top 8)

First game he showed me 3 Fows + 4 captains + vial. I managed to get rid of the fows, but captains trampled me. Game two very similiar, 2 fows + chalice + daze + som mermaids.

(SB : in xantid swarms + decays, out infernal, probe, mox, ponder + 1 other card)

I was really happy with the deck, worked nicely, only lost to really bad matchup with very good draws.

cya

s.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
When testing Nedles, I also evaluated them as a not that much impact card, I quickly replaced them for more Xantids and other cards.
I still believe that Nedles needs to be played as a full package if you want them to make a big impact. (gitaxian and nedle on Fetch or likes...) but I still dislike them.


@Storm Folks:
I've been evaluating playing a single Grim Tutor in Side instead of D.Returns, has anybody played G.Tutor in Side? (I remember when I played 1 main and it was shit...), but having the option to grab A.N. having still Full I.T. seems great for 1st games, although seems redundant for 2nd and 3rd games....

Still running Full Gemstones 3 C.Mox 12 Lands List.

a note:
I've finally took out Massacre from my Side, the fact is that I still haven't used it and I found pyroclasm much more polivalent for the same purpose, as example the other day I encountered a scenario in which if having pyroclasm would have won vs Red MUD (he had Mage of the Moon and the Nedle Boy as unique attackers... and the only way to kill them were pyro)


@Togores:

I have that exact side but:
+1 A.Decay
+1 D.R.
+1 Duress
=
-1 Massacre
-1 T.Seize
-1 G.Shot

[Lemnear]

@Storm Folks:
I've been evaluating playing a single Grim Tutor in Side instead of D.Returns, has anybody played G.Tutor in Side? (I remember when I played 1 main and it was shit...), but having the option to grab A.N. having still Full I.T. seems great for 1st games, although seems redundant for 2nd and 3rd games....

@Togores:

I have that exact side but:
+1 A.Decay
+1 D.R.
+1 Duress
=
-1 Massacre
-1 T.Seize
-1 G.Shot

The casual 10 mana playline trough Daze/Pierce with 3 life lost ... I was never a fan of the SB Infernal for the mere reason of time it takes to accumulate the mana in average and the fact that the turns that takes also hurt your Ad Nauseam. Suggesting an option which costs 1 mana more and 3 life on top of the existing problems is totally off. I don't get your love for DimRet, but at least you are not alone: I've had to scratch my head today during a short visit in a certain german forum with people discussing how awesome Time Spiral is...

(SB : in xantid swarms + decays, out infernal, probe, mox, ponder + 1 other card)

I don't get this Boarding. It's either MB Chalice or MB FoW. Squeezing in Xantids AND Decay w/o cutting down Discard against your opponents (likely) only 4 FoWs sounds like a waste. Also: Boarding Probe *sigh*

[Asthereal]

Wish ANT can get away with playing the Grim Tutor on side because it generates more mana than TES utilising Cabal Rituals. TES generates less mana than ANT, but does so faster. That's why Empty the Warrens, for instance, is so much better in TES than it is in ANT. Grim Tutor is the slowest and most mana hungry Wish target wincon ever played in competitive Legacy, and as such it doesn't belong in TES. [/personal opinion]

@Lem: Spiral in TES? Really? I can imagine your frown when you read about that. I can think of at least six reasons why Diminishing Returns is better in TES, and most of us don't even play that one. I tried Spiral in my Doomsday list and ended up cutting it because it sucked, and that's the Tendrils list where it should fit best.

[Lemnear]

@Lem: Spiral in TES? Really? I can imagine your frown when you read about that. I can think of at least six reasons why Diminishing Returns is better in TES, and most of us don't even play that one. I tried Spiral in my Doomsday list and ended up cutting it because it sucked, and that's the Tendrils list where it should fit best.

I do. You can find that stuff over at mtg-forum.de if you give a fuck reading comments from people who are unable to think two steps ahead, a repeating source of my personal frustration, because people do not understand the idiocy between this decks core design to work with 2 IMS (not necessary lands) and the suggestion to run a card which works (better than DimRet) with 3+ LANDS.

For me, it's as frustrating as discussing options for 2BBR and 3 life to fetch Ad Nauseam. Maybe it's just me who feels drained by that stuff

[Asthereal]

I do. You can find that stuff over at mtg-forum.de if you give a fuck reading comments from people who are unable to think two steps ahead, a repeating source of my personal frustration, because people do not understand the idiocy between this decks core design to work with 2 IMS (not necessary lands) and the suggestion to run a card which works (better than DimRet) with 3+ LANDS.

For me, it's as frustrating as discussing options for 2BBR and 3 life to fetch Ad Nauseam. Maybe it's just me who feels drained by that stuff

It's not just you. In the Team America thread someone again mentioned boarding a Pithing Needle or two against Storm to stop LEDs. Makes me want to quit this forum, but then again there's no real alternative for in depth Legacy discussion, so we'll have to cope I guess.

I have a Q: Has everyone abandoned the 2x Cabal Ritual, 1x Infernal on side and no main deck Empty list?
Last time I played TES I ran that list, and I feel it should be really strong in today's Cruiseless meta.

[wonderPreaux]

It's not just you. In the Team America thread someone again mentioned boarding a Pithing Needle or two against Storm to stop LEDs. Makes me want to quit this forum, but then again there's no real alternative for in depth Legacy discussion, so we'll have to cope I guess.

I have a Q: Has everyone abandoned the 2x Cabal Ritual, 1x Infernal on side and no main deck Empty list?
Last time I played TES I ran that list, and I feel it should be really strong in today's Cruiseless meta.

given that the cruiseless meta led to a return of DRS, and maverick/Dnt are decks that do pop up, the idea of taking out EtW for Cabal Ritual seems pretty unattractive, imo. If anything, I was running Cabals and no EtW IN the cruise meta, because aggressive combo decks, CB, and reanimator were terrible for EtW, and Cabal Ritual to ignore Daze was great against Delver

edit: also, the cruiseless meta shifts us back to the sb tutor as there is no way to draw cards with wish otherwise :/ unless you want awkward cards like dim ret, or weird bad ones like night's whisper