[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[PartyMonster]

I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.

Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp

[Lemnear]

I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.

Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp

That stuff would be much better received in general if it was wrapped in ideas behind that lead to this configuration, so I miss the initial Version you said having posted.

A urgent and inevitable question here is, despite the nice U.Sea+Taiga for having access to all 4 colors and Decay, how the Taiga which does absolutely nothing for the MB than delivering a red IMS is any good itself for developing the first 1/2/3 turns of the game or what the point of Island is against Wasteland if you only have 3 Fetchlands to grab it?

[Final Fortune]

I don't know about cutting discard, more and more I've been moving to a 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Swamp manabase and cutting back on the use of Chrome Mox, so I spend a lot of games fetching for Swamp, Duressing, playing a Fetchland, Cabal Therapying and then waiting to crack the Fetchland on T3 in order to go off with 3 lands in play. I really like being able to consistently sit back on discard and buy turns in roughly the same manner ANT does. For that reason I really like 3 Infernal Tutor, 4 Duress MD and I've been experimenting with reducing Chrome Mox to 1 and adding a Simian Spirit Guide or just playing 2 Simian Spirit Guides in order to be certain I always have an accelerant that produces the off color mana to the combo (by off color I mean Red, considering your basic is Swamp and your first Fetchland choice is Underground Sea)

Cutting Cabal Therapy seems a bit strange to me considering how polarized your Burning Wishes are towards Empty the Warrens without Infernal Tutor in your SBs G1.

[Asthereal]

I wrote out a better explanation earlier, but deleted it because I don't feel like people calling my ideas shit. Regardless, I think it's better to throw the idea out there than not.

Just an idea to fit the green source in the main deck with out going up to 14 lands and cutting the 7th discard spell.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Misty Rainforest / scalding tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp

I suggested Taiga earlier and the idea indeed got shot down.

The reasoning for Taiga is simple: we want to be able to cast all stuff we have from two lands AND be able to go off with BR as initial mana from our two lands. A deck with as little lands as TES cannot reliably count on having three lands every game, so there's a good reason to try and have Duals that accommodate both the BR initial mana, and have the ability to cast all cards we have.

The counter argument is also simple: Taiga on its own doesn't help our setup, and it also doesn't cast any main board protection spells. So having it in your opener will almost always be suboptimal, if not hampering your development to a complete standstill. (Love that sentence. )

So there you have it.

[Lemnear]

I suggested Taiga earlier and the idea indeed got shot down.

The reasoning for Taiga is simple: we want to be able to cast all stuff we have from two lands AND be able to go off with BR as initial mana from our two lands. A deck with as little lands as TES cannot reliably count on having three lands every game, so there's a good reason to try and have Duals that accommodate both the BR initial mana, and have the ability to cast all cards we have.

The counter argument is also simple: Taiga on its own doesn't help our setup, and it also doesn't cast any main board protection spells. So having it in your opener will almost always be suboptimal, if not hampering your development to a complete standstill. (Love that sentence. )

So there you have it.

The point is that Bayou+Volcanic provide also 4 colors like U.Sea+Taiga, but do this with a better split as you are able to cantrip AND cast protection with the obvious lack of supporting Decay. The choice ergo boils down to either being able to cast Decay off two lands (mind, you board Decays only against very slow matchups anyways which let you accumulate IMS') or running a completely dead MB land.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't know about cutting discard, more and more I've been moving to a 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Swamp manabase and cutting back on the use of Chrome Mox, so I spend a lot of games fetching for Swamp, Duressing, playing a Fetchland, Cabal Therapying and then waiting to crack the Fetchland on T3 in order to go off with 3 lands in play. I really like being able to consistently sit back on discard and buy turns in roughly the same manner ANT does. For that reason I really like 3 Infernal Tutor, 4 Duress MD and I've been experimenting with reducing Chrome Mox to 1 and adding a Simian Spirit Guide or just playing 2 Simian Spirit Guides in order to be certain I always have an accelerant that produces the off color mana to the combo (by off color I mean Red, considering your basic is Swamp and your first Fetchland choice is Underground Sea)

Cutting Cabal Therapy seems a bit strange to me considering how polarized your Burning Wishes are towards Empty the Warrens without Infernal Tutor in your SBs G1.

Yeah, I don't disagree on cutting Discard. Peter convinced me not too long after that I wasn't really gaining anything by the move, the Bayou is currently in my sideboard with 7 discard spells main.

EDIT: I put my current list in the OP.

[wonderPreaux]

Yeah, I don't disagree on cutting Discard. Peter convinced me not too long after that I wasn't really gaining anything by the move, the Bayou is currently in my sideboard with 7 discard spells main.

EDIT: I put my current list in the OP.

I was going to do a somewhat longer post talking about the last TES list, but it saves me some time if someone else talked the 7th discard spell back into the main (As an aside, I'm not really part of any of the think-tanks or web groups, so if any topics I bring up were already discussed, sorry for any redundancy for those reading this thread). Bryant, I think your current posted list looks good, but I have some suggested changes that I think are worth exploring:

Main-Deck:
- 1 Island
- 1 Underground Sea
- 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Bayou
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire
+ 1 Chrome Mox

Side-Deck:
- 1 Bayou
- 1 Void Snare
+ 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Grapeshot

Summary:
SB Tutor accommodates 3rd Chrome Mox
Snare becomes Grapeshot
Bayou replaces Underground Sea
Fetch replaces Island

SB Infernal Tutor/3rd Chrome Mox
I know there's been some back-and-forth in the past about how worthwhile the Infernal Tutor is in the sideboard. Personally, though, I've come to appreciate it a lot over time. Infernal Tutor in the SB provides more efficient use of LED mana for EtW lines, more worthwhile Wishes in matchups where Goblins don't shine, and only deprives your openers of a Tutor/Wish in 1/19 games (not even factoring cantrips into that figure). The 3rd Chrome Mox, something I appreciate a bit less, is something I feel complements this deck too well to disregard. One of the things that really irked me about the 8-Tutor/Wish build was that it seemed like one of the best build for 3 Moxen and yet I couldn't justify cutting a land for it. Still, even with just 7 Tutors, and thus less risk of the clumping that Mox helps to alleviate, Chrome Mox is valuable acceleration that can put this deck ahead of Hymns and Hatebears. If there is a real dearth of Tempo/Combo in your meta, it would probably be justifiable to run Bayou in the side and main-deck 8 business with 3 Moxen for maximum speed. That said, I think this configuration makes the deck best suited for a general meta.

Grapeshot > Snare
The logic for this choice is two-fold: 1 - Grapeshot + Pyroclasm is way more appealing to board in against Stoneblade than Clasm alone and I like having less pressure to bring in Decays. 2 - I've never had Snare come up particularly big for me in as long as I can remember playing it. What value targets can you point a Snare at? Leyline and Teeg. Teeg gets ripped up by Snare and Pyroclasm, and there is only marginal value in being able to delay siding in Chains against possible Leyline users given that, unlike ANT, you don't even fold to Leyline if they do have it and you didn't bring Chains.

I feel Grapeshot even exceeds Void Snare in corner-case uses as well. When it comes to randomly buying turns, I think bombing 1 or more Cliques/SCM/Pyromasters to slow already glacial control decks exceeds the value of bouncing 1 guy that they might still get value off of later. The ability to have a win condition not named "Tendrils of Agony", as well as side in 1 of the 2 storm spells against control/Patriot probably also trumps some dream-world scenario of Void Snare bouncing some odd permanent like a planeswalker or Lodestone Golem. I think using a Wish board to win the game and pack threats is better for this deck than trying to cover fringe cases and give up valuable slots for random cool stuff.

Bayou > Underground Sea/Fetchland > Island
My suggested change here is focused on providing black and red mana as consistently as possible. There are only 8 blue spells you need to be casting in the deck, often fewer than that postboard. If 9 red spells isn't enough to justify a basic red source, I don't see why 8 blue is enough to justify an Island. If you fetch a dual and cantrip, and then get Wastelanded, you're down a business color. However, if you fetch a basic Island and cantrip, you're still not having a business color on the following turn, you're only advantaged, effectively, 1 colorless mana as far as comboing goes. This configuration still boasts 11 blue sources, for consistency's sake, and has redundant dual-based sources of black and red mana to provide some coverage against Wasteland.

With some awareness of when to fetch Underground Sea vs. Bayou vs. Swamp, you can still manage to cast a cantrip while threading mana together, even against Wasteland. In my experience Island felt so underwhelming, especially post-board when 1 or more cantrips can be sided out and your hand is packed with red, black and even green business spells. With no Bayou in the side to sub in, I feel like the Island can just be entirely foregone. With 3 Moxen, and the availability of 3 blue duals and 8 fetches, you can cantrip as needed, while enjoying even more power in your slightly increased access to Basic Swamp. IMO, Gemstone Mine is arguably just as good overall for securing cantrips as a Basic Island, because Gemstone Mine is an unappealing Wasteland target and you get increased value from redundant green sources in some match-ups as well as the ability to immediately transition your cantrip into whatever business/protection you cantriped for, which increases the value of Mine (high-risk, high reward - feels appropriate for TES!). However, the Gemstone-less build is likely the safer hedge due to the high access to basic Swamp, so it gets the nod from me.

If anyone wants a more indepth explanation of my rationale, I would happy to explain more. For those who don't want to click over to the OP and then mentally substitute my changes, this is what I'm suggesting:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre

[Bryant Cook]

I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting a 8th fetch over a second Underground Sea. Sea is our best land, it does everything we want our lands to do. If it gets wasted you could easily be in a situation where you're now color screwed. I could see playing the Bayou in the main over the Island, it's something I've considered but I believe the additional basic is worth more. The difference between 8 Blue spells and 9 Red spells is the function is which they're used. You typically only need red mana once where blue mana is often a repeated use.

What the SB Infernal/3rd Mox comes down to is sideboard space, by playing it main and siding it out almost every round you gain a sideboard slot.

Snare has done me wonders against Ruric Thar (Elves) and Iona (Reanimator), both things Grapeshot doesn't really handle well. I want to play Grapeshot as much as everyone else, if you're willing to do 1 Chain/1 Snare to fit the Grapeshot I think that would be more suitable.

You do gain something similar to an additional basic with the third Chrome Mox, which is something interesting to think about. If I were to run something like you're suggesting, it would be this:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames

The downside of this list is that you're essentially giving up a second basic land for a Grapeshot, which makes me think it's not worthwhile.

[wonderPreaux]

I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting a 8th fetch over a second Underground Sea. Sea is our best land, it does everything we want our lands to do. If it gets wasted you could easily be in a situation where you're now color screwed. I could see playing the Bayou in the main over the Island, it's something I've considered but I believe the additional basic is worth more. The difference between 8 Blue spells and 9 Red spells is the function is which they're used. You typically only need red mana once where blue mana is often a repeated use.

There are about 3 distinct sorts of decks that use Wastelands, as far as I observe:

Lock/Prison
Tempo
Control

Against Lock/Prison decks, cantripping is probably as much a one-time thing as your red spells, given that you shouldn't/won't be playing a hand that relies on multiple cantrips, given the fear of lock pieces and the fact that you side out a number of Ponders. I think against Control it's something of a wash as those games are very slow and it would be very greedy of them to attempt to Wasteland you out. Against Tempo, I felt as though the increased fetch-access to basic Swamp was comparable to the additional Underground Sea, though I can understand wanting that redundancy and having a higher number of lands to actually fetch up. With that in mind, subbing a fetch back out for Sea is probably good.

What the SB Infernal/3rd Mox comes down to is sideboard space, by playing it main and siding it out almost every round you gain a sideboard slot.

You gain a sideboard slot at the cost of mana efficiency and acceleration. Cutting Island for Bayou frees a sideboard slot just as well, with Chrome Mox helping to smooth your blue and red sources.

Snare has done me wonders against Ruric Thar (Elves) and Iona (Reanimator), both things Grapeshot doesn't really handle well. I want to play Grapeshot as much as everyone else, if you're willing to do 1 Chain/1 Snare to fit the Grapeshot I think that would be more suitable.

I do not think Ruric Thar is a great example of the use of Void Snare. Losing 6-12 life and then being able to combo off against a deck that can easily blunt/seal our Past in Flames/EtW lines as of the midgame feels like an ambitious scenario to say the least. Particularly game 1, where Snare would actually have a large edge over SB Chain. FWIW, mtgTop8 lists only a third of Elves lists actually maining Ruric and under half having it in the 75.

Regarding Iona, an observant opponent game 1 would just call Red anyway and thus lock you out of the game. You would have to preemptively Wish for Snare and then the opponent would have to have no counters, no discard and no ability to subsequently revive a non-Iona target game 1. Overall, that seems like a lot to ask for. Postboard, you would have the 2 Chains of Vapor, so that you can break an Iona lock anyway.

You do gain something similar to an additional basic with the third Chrome Mox, which is something interesting to think about. If I were to run something like you're suggesting, it would be this:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames

The downside of this list is that you're essentially giving up a second basic land for a Grapeshot, which makes me think it's not worthwhile.

I think you would be better off just having that 3rd Chrome Mox over the 4th Tutor, and then the 4th Tutor over Snare. You'd be faster, more streamlined in executing your core plays, and I feel the EV of your Wishboard would still be robust. You would also have a strong blue presence with 4 blue duals and 3 Moxen. I'll concede that Underground Sea is likely worth more than the 8th fetch, thinking it over more, but I feel like Snare is highly over-rated. In the previous lists running no Chain of Vapor, I can see how Snare gets valued highly, but Vapor is likely a more efficient answer in the overall scheme of things and I just don't see the need for 3 bounce spells.

[Final Fortune]

Sinced I moved to 8 Fetchlands and 1 Swamp, I had a lot of problems with the "color fixing" Chrome Mox, because a lot of the time it doesn't color fix since you don't have a 2nd red card to cast Burning Wish or you have to imprint Gitaxian Probe in order to cast Ponder and you lose out on the draw 1 + information. I've been messing around with the tutor, discard, accelerant count and think Simian Spirit Guide is really worth the slots, either as a 1 or 2 of if you SB Infernal Tutor and balance out the average CC of the deck. As far as Island goes, believe me I get wanting to build up the manabase, but the problem is it can just be inconsistent to double fetch basics and get cut off of Red or only have 6 fetch for Swamp/Island instead of 8 fetch for just one of the two. That's kind of my composite reasoning for moving towards just playing Swamp MD and dedicating the "necessary evil" accelerant to Red mana. Also I really doubt only playing 1 Underground Sea us a good idea, if there's any land you'll have to fetch for twice it's that one. I think you guys are just getting really greedy with the number of reduant SB removal cards like Massacre, Pyroclasm, Grape Shot and Voidsnare, when you can cut 1 of those in order not to have to play with a shitty version of "Swamp" in your MD and cut multi colored blue sources.

[wonderPreaux]

Sinced I moved to 8 Fetchlands and 1 Swamp, I had a lot of problems with the "color fixing" Chrome Mox, because a lot of the time it doesn't color fix since you don't have a 2nd red card to cast Burning Wish or you have to imprint Gitaxian Probe in order to cast Ponder and you lose out on the draw 1 + information. I've been messing around with the tutor, discard, accelerant count and think Simian Spirit Guide is really worth the slots, either as a 1 or 2 of if you SB Infernal Tutor and balance out the average CC of the deck. As far as Island goes, believe me I get wanting to build up the manabase, but the problem is it can just be inconsistent to double fetch basics and get cut off of Red or only have 6 fetch for Swamp/Island instead of 8 fetch for just one of the two. That's kind of my composite reasoning for moving towards just playing Swamp MD and dedicating the "necessary evil" accelerant to Red mana. Also I really doubt only playing 1 Underground Sea us a good idea, if there's any land you'll have to fetch for twice it's that one. I think you guys are just getting really greedy with the number of reduant SB removal cards like Massacre, Pyroclasm, Grape Shot and Voidsnare, when you can cut 1 of those in order not to have to play with a shitty version of "Swamp" in your MD and cut multi colored blue sources.

FWIW, I think I'll be back on 2 U. Sea, and I will be trying to go on with just Grapeshot, Clasm and Massacre, alongside the "generic" Chain of Vapor.

Re: Spirit Guide, I tested it last summer and found it to be a fairly middling option compared to Chrome Mox. It's higher variance, in that it's great when its good and awful when it's bad. A lot of the time, for me, Chrome Mox imprinting red is fine because I'm doing it post Ad Nauseam or smoothing redundant tutors. Imprinting blue is just fine for me as well because it typically serves as an accelerant in hatebear matchups where the probe/2nd cantrip is less significant, or in games where the investment in another mana source to dodge daze is worth losing the info, since I'll have to take several draw steps and use discard anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

You gain a sideboard slot at the cost of mana efficiency and acceleration. Cutting Island for Bayou frees a sideboard slot just as well, with Chrome Mox helping to smooth your blue and red sources.

You're not actually freeing up a slot as you're sliding in the Infernal Tutor there, we're really just moving pieces rather than gaining any. I can also see what Final Fortune is saying with Mox not actually fixing color issues with red/blue sources.

I do not think Ruric Thar is a great example of the use of Void Snare. Losing 6-12 life and then being able to combo off against a deck that can easily blunt/seal our Past in Flames/EtW lines as of the midgame feels like an ambitious scenario to say the least. Particularly game 1, where Snare would actually have a large edge over SB Chain. FWIW, mtgTop8 lists only a third of Elves lists actually maining Ruric and under half having it in the 75.

Regarding Iona, an observant opponent game 1 would just call Red anyway and thus lock you out of the game. You would have to preemptively Wish for Snare and then the opponent would have to have no counters, no discard and no ability to subsequently revive a non-Iona target game 1. Overall, that seems like a lot to ask for. Postboard, you would have the 2 Chains of Vapor, so that you can break an Iona lock anyway.

I single handily won a round at Eternal Extravangza 2 weekend using Wish to answer Ruric Thar, while I understand that these instances aren't common, they happen. Void Snare has stolen me more than one game by being a Wishable target unlike Chain and I see nothing but an advantage in playing it over a Chain of Vapor (in your list). Also, you're assuming players always play correctly, do you know how little this actually happens? I get so many free wins based on players siding in Grafdiggers Cage, Rest in Peace, etc, this extends to naming the wrong color (Which is often black). We gain quite a bit by not actually being ANT.

I think you would be better off just having that 3rd Chrome Mox over the 4th Tutor, and then the 4th Tutor over Snare. You'd be faster, more streamlined in executing your core plays, and I feel the EV of your Wishboard would still be robust. You would also have a strong blue presence with 4 blue duals and 3 Moxen. I'll concede that Underground Sea is likely worth more than the 8th fetch, thinking it over more, but I feel like Snare is highly over-rated. In the previous lists running no Chain of Vapor, I can see how Snare gets valued highly, but Vapor is likely a more efficient answer in the overall scheme of things and I just don't see the need for 3 bounce spells.

I think a split of 1 Chain/1 Snare would likely be fine. I'll do some testing with no Island and report back, I think it's at least worth trying. SCG: Syracuse (My hometown) is this weekend, if I don't do well in the main event, I'll be playing in the IQ Sunday. But I'd much rather be still competing in Standard sunday.

[wonderPreaux]

You're not actually freeing up a slot as you're sliding in the Infernal Tutor there, we're really just moving pieces rather than gaining any. I can also see what Final Fortune is saying with Mox not actually fixing color issues with red/blue sources.

Well, overall you do free up a slot, the Island leaving makes room for Chrome Mox. Effectively, I guess I'm arguing that I'd rather have a Mox to facilitate/accelerate my colors, blue included, than have an island facilitate/stabilize my colors. This probably reaches back to innumerable previous debates about composition of lands/moxen and their respective numbers.

I single handily won a round at Eternal Extravangza 2 weekend using Wish to answer Ruric Thar, while I understand that these instances aren't common, they happen. Void Snare has stolen me more than one game by being a Wishable target unlike Chain and I see nothing but an advantage in playing it over a Chain of Vapor (in your list). Also, you're assuming players always play correctly, do you know how little this actually happens? I get so many free wins based on players siding in Grafdiggers Cage, Rest in Peace, etc, this extends to naming the wrong color (Which is often black). We gain quite a bit by not actually being ANT.

Isn't TES about playing the odds? If your useful Snare scenarios (Snarios) are uncommon, and Stoneblade/Hatebear scenarios are common, which option is really giving you the better EV? Moreover, there are advantages to playing Chain. For example, you can actually use it in the end step (better for Thalia/Port) or easily generate storm (if you wanna talk edge cases). Idk for sure how to respond to the last part about players misplaying Ionas, my intuitive response being that I would just try to play better and win out that way given that skill is probably more valuable than void snare and you can't beat lucky reanimator players anyway, lol

I think a split of 1 Chain/1 Snare would likely be fine. I'll do some testing with no Island and report back, I think it's at least worth trying. SCG: Syracuse (My hometown) is this weekend, if I don't do well in the main event, I'll be playing in the IQ Sunday. But I'd much rather be still competing in Standard sunday.

No island, 1:1 chain/snare split does seem like a fine hedge of both our ideas, I look forward to hearing about your testing. I'll try and get in games with my suggested list (i'll be on 2 Seas, don't anyone worry) and see if I miss the Snare/hate the 3rd Mox. Best of luck at the SCG.

[Bryant Cook]

Well, overall you do free up a slot, the Island leaving makes room for Chrome Mox. Effectively, I guess I'm arguing that I'd rather have a Mox to facilitate/accelerate my colors, blue included, than have an island facilitate/stabilize my colors. This probably reaches back to innumerable previous debates about composition of lands/moxen and their respective numbers.


Isn't TES about playing the odds? If your useful Snare scenarios (Snarios) are uncommon, and Stoneblade/Hatebear scenarios are common, which option is really giving you the better EV? Moreover, there are advantages to playing Chain. For example, you can actually use it in the end step (better for Thalia/Port) or easily generate storm (if you wanna talk edge cases). Idk for sure how to respond to the last part about players misplaying Ionas, my intuitive response being that I would just try to play better and win out that way given that skill is probably more valuable than void snare and you can't beat lucky reanimator players anyway, lol


No island, 1:1 chain/snare split does seem like a fine hedge of both our ideas, I look forward to hearing about your testing. I'll try and get in games with my suggested list (i'll be on 2 Seas, don't anyone worry) and see if I miss the Snare/hate the 3rd Mox. Best of luck at the SCG.

Exactly, we're not gaining slots. We could be if we still played all 4 Infernal MD (over Mox 3) and sided it out every round.

I guess my point is I want to be prepared for everything and if I can do that by playing a single sideboard slot differently for an almost identical card, it's worth it.

[wonderPreaux]

Exactly, we're not gaining slots. We could be if we still played all 4 Infernal MD (over Mox 3) and sided it out every round.

I guess my point is I want to be prepared for everything and if I can do that by playing a single sideboard slot differently for an almost identical card, it's worth it.

I get what you're saying about the shuffle of cards between Tutor over Mox, but what I think is significant is that once Island isn't in the board we're no longer in the position of having 14 lands in the 75 where we typically only use 13 of them in the main, and then you get the sb tutor for better EtW/Wish lines, the extra accel of Mox etc. But at this point, we've pretty much talked it to death and we'll just see what the testing shows about an Island-less build.

[Bryant Cook]

Looks like i'm playing Legacy tomorrow, I'm playing with the third Mox upside down so I can tell whether or not I would prefer if it was Mox/Island/Tutor.

[Bryant Cook]

12 Place at the SCG:Cuse Legacy IQ

Here's the list (Featured in the link above):

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

In my somewhat limited goldfishing, I rarely wanted the upside down Mox to actually be Chrome Mox. I went with the fourth Infernal Tutor, so that I could gain a sideboard slot. I cut the Pyroclasm as the Snare/Chains are more versatile while being easier to cast versus taxing effects.

R1 - Death and Taxes – I win the die roll.

G1 - He plays a turn one Mom followed by a Revoker on LED, I play Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam leaving a Petal open and kill him without needing LED.

Sideboarding: -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare

G2 - Long story short, there was an error with mulliganing on my opponents part. However, my hand was Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, LED, LED, Chrome Mox, Burning Wish and Polluted Delta.

2-0
1-0

R2 - MUD – I win the die roll.

G1 - She aggressively mulligans looking for a turn one Chalice, stopping at five. I turn one Ponder setting up a turn two. She plays a land and passes. I play Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor and Ad Nauseam.

Sideboarding: -1 Cabal Therapy, -4 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay

G2 - She has a turn one Chalice on one. My hand is Brainstorm, Decay, Swamp, Mire, Delta and a Petal. I lay lands down until my hand develops, I decay Chalice on her end step, untap, draw and Brainstorm. It's not a good one, but it finds another Brainstorm and a Chain of Vapor. I shuffle using a fetch and then I Chain her Metalworker to slow her down knowing she can't cast the Lodestone Golem in her hand (known off Probe). She recasts, Metalworker and passes. I draw Dark Ritual for turn, Brainstorm into a land, Infernal Tutor and a Lion's Eye Diamond. Easy game.

4-0
2-0

R3 - Shardless BUG – I win the die roll.

G1 - I Probe him turn one to see four non-wasteland Lands, Brainstorm, Dig Through Time and Tasigur. I Duress his Brainstorm and easily resolved Ad Nauseam two turns later.

Sideboarding: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid Swarm (Note: He mentioned in passing that he beat a previous storm opponent on the back of a Flusterstorm. I figured I'd try it.

G2 - I get crushed by a series of back to back Thoughtseizes followed by a Hymn to Tourach and eventually a Goyf.

G3 - My opening hand is Bayou, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gitaxian Probe, Brainstorm and a pair of Lotus Petal. I Probe and see a Force of Will, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm and three lands. I draw a third Lion's Eye Diamond, play out the artifact mana and pass. He Thoughtseizes me, I Brainstorm in response finding Swamp, Duress and Cabal Therapy. I reveal Swamp and then over the next two turns remove Force and Fluster. In the meantime, he plays a Goyf and a Deathrite Shaman. My hand is now Dark Ritual and his is a second Goyf and just Brainstorm (known from the Probe on the stack) I draw Ad Nauseam and cast it using the Dark Ritual, Bayou and remaining Lotus Petal. He Brainstorm doesn't save him.

6-1
3-0

R4 - Dark Maverick – He wins the die roll.

G1 - He plays a turn one Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond. I actually lose this game, can you believe it? I shred his hand, am actually about to win before he draws a Thalia on his last turn. There's no justice.

Sideboarding: -3 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Void Snare

G2 - He concedes to my 14 Goblins on turn 2 after I Void Snare his blocker when I attack on turn 3.

G3 - I mulligan. He plays a Plains and passes, I play a Petal and Fetch holding Chain of Vapor, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual and lands. He plays Cannonist, I Chain it on his endstep and Ad Nauseam on my turn. Tough.

8-2
4-0

R5 - Miracles – I win the die roll.

G1 - He lands a CB on turn three after two discard spells, I play a Rite of Flame (he reveals a land), Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish, Empty. He draws the land, lays it and passes. I attack and pass. He draws Ponder, Ponders finding Top. Lays Top, fetches, and finds Terminus...

Sideboarding: -1 Ponder, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Empty the Warrens, +3 Abrupt Decay, +3 Xantid Swarm

G2 - I cantrip on turn one, he lays a land and passes. I Duress him, he Enlighten Tutors in response for Cannonist. I Brainstorm on his endstep but only have two Underground Sea with a Decay, two Wish, two LED and an Infernal. I Infernal for the shuffle effect to find a second Decay. He beats me down with Cannonist and Clique before I can find any proper color mana in a reasonable time frame.

8-4
4-1

R6 - Junk/Abzan – He wins the die roll.

G1 - Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Hymn, Lilliana and SFM all happen to me game one.

Sideboarding: -2 Chrome Mox, +2 Chain of Vapor

G2 - This probably should've been a mulligan? Underground Sea, Bloodstained Mire, Brainstorm, Ponder, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Cabal Therapy. I don't end up doing anything this game and lose to his draw steps (In a row, Wasteland, Wasteland, Thoughteize and Tarmogoyf).

8-6
4-2

R6 - Trainwreck – I win the die roll.

G1 - He Thoughtseizes me turn one, I still kill him turn 2.

Sideboarding: -4 Cabal Therapy, -1 Empty he Warrens, +1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Past in Flames, +3 Abrupt Decay (He's an old friend, I know that he has Chalice in his side and that his deck becomes mostly discard).

G2 - I go to set up a PIF kill before realizing I'm an idiot and sided it in for the first time in over six months, I make 16 Goblins into a Pernicious Deed. I win three turns later when I draw the Past in Flames. Embarrassing.

10-6
5-2

Good enough for 12th place, I felt like the list was strong. The matches I lost were mostly tough breaks. I never wanted the Island, but didn't play against any tempo decks either. I did play against a bunch of Prison and Midrange with Wasteland but the Island wouldn't have been relevant. I never used Surgical, but it was mostly based on pairings as I saw a few Dredge + Reanimator early on in the day.

[Pelikanudo]

Related to R6 - Junk/Abzan

Assuming this is Junk - just discard, wastelands and bears.
Why the hell you board out the 2 C.M?
maybe I don't know this archetype - but does this archetype play Blue?

Related to Shardless BUG:
do Siding in 3 Xantid really improve that match up? I believe there isn't anything better...
What is your thinking process related to this? maybe : it is Slow Control and it is likely Opp. will side out Anti Bears.

EDIT: you're ritght Lem! I just didn't understand this on the note Bryant wrote.... my english is not as good as yours! Thanks

[Lemnear]

Bryant made pretty clear that he boarded Xantid as his opponent dropped a line about boarding additional counters like Flusterstorm and opted to "try it"

[Bryant Cook]

Peter and I were discussing the list yesterday and came up with what's below. We decided that it's likely in our best interest to play a second green source in the sideboard rather than run cards like Chain of Vapor/Disfigure (something we were considering), in doing so it created sideboard slots. Actually, we had an extra space. The slot to me was originally a discard spell, but it could be anything, Diminishing Returns, Grapeshot, Telemin Performance, Storm Entity, Ali from Cairo, you name it. But the more I thought about it, the more I think it should be a sideboard Infernal Tutor (This is the only slot where Peter disagrees).

By playing an additional green source we can reliably side in Decay versus Wasteland decks, making it a much more versatile card. The second green source would likely have to be a Bayou as Tropical can't be searched for by Bloodstained Mire and we run only a basic Swamp, so we need our Mire. The alternative would be Taiga, which I'm not convinced is the greatest option.

I believe the new SB plan against D&T would be:

-3 Duress
-2 Ponder
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Void Snare
+1 Bayou

I believe the new SB plan against Reanimator would be:

-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Swamp
+3 Xantid Swarm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Bayou

If you decide you don't like the additional Bayou in the side, I would recommend two Chain of Vapor in the sideboard over the Infernal (going back to the maindeck) + Bayou.


4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

I'm looking forward to people's thoughts.