[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[sawatarix]

cabal Ritual and Rain are still on-colour.
If the format really demands Carpets main (which couldn't be right in my opinion) you need to run rainbow lands. It is nearly impossible to support 4 colours main with dual lands. I took Tes on a tournament right after GP Kyoto and I lost to many games because I got colour blocked.

[Spam]

The problem that I see with this is that it goes against the TES philosophy of speed.

Speed is the only thing keeping us alive in this meta imo. Against the top tiers I find myself going belcher mode all the time. They have so many cantrips and counters that, after turn three, their hand is really hard to break.

[Shaman]

I suppose Belcher is much better in going belcher mode. That means you should ask if TES is still your best choice.

[Lemnear]

I suppose Belcher is much better in going belcher mode. That means you should ask if TES is still your best choice.

The deck is sitting between chairs of a metagame in which 75% of all decks run FoW & 82% Brainstorm (which are able to drag out the game where TES lacks the punch) and cards like Thalia/DTT/Counterbalance/MeddlingMage/etc. which needs to be raced/can be beaten with the Belcher mode before them being played.

You pick your poison for storm deckbuilding atm ranging from 3 Mox TES to ANT losing to one or the other end of the spectrum you possibly face. For me it's a sheer numbers game to decide. If the mayority of times the game goes to turn 3+ thanks to opposing defence and the number of deck you can best with pure speed vanishes, a deckkbuiding focus on speed is questionable

[Pelikanudo]

The format is damn blue-centric atm that I really consider picking up Mainboard Carpet of Flowers...

Well I need to strongly disagree on this.

Some reasons:

if you are on the play Carpet produces 0 mana
if your opponent does not play blue it produces 0 mana.
you clearly loose speed against non blue decks and it is a useless card - I think you can not afford to play useless cards in a Storm Deck
Against Agro is not as super good as you need the Opp. plays 3 Blue Sources to make it work as Dark Ritual
is not effective until 2 blue mana is landed, at this point, it is like a RoF - not as good.

I like TES by its ability to go off when it is needed by doing so, you just extirpate this quality from TES.

Apart, I have questions to the New TES Manabase - Bryant:

- I just would like to know if having 11 Blue producers instead of 12 made you loose or provoke some ankward scenarios of a need of blue mana. (I mean that 7 fetches 1 Swamp, 1 bayou 2 volcanic 2 U.Sea manabase)

As talking to Lem some time before:
- go below 7 discard makes you worse vs Miracles
- go below 4 I.T. makes you less quick
- go below 3 C.M. makes you less quick

So my initial idea was that the less worse option was to move to 13 lands and -1 discard (as you did Bryant!) and as I still dont like it I still play 12 manabase with gemstones. and still 7 discards.
So my first question is:
have you tryed :
a) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Swamp
b) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Bayou

Which of these mana bases preferred and why?
I really do not see any reason to play 2 Non Blue producers in TES.

[Lemnear]

Well I need to strongly disagree on this.

Some reasons:

if you are on the play Carpet produces 0 mana
if your opponent does not play blue it produces 0 mana.
you clearly loose speed against non blue decks and it is a useless card - I think you can not afford to play useless cards in a Storm Deck
Against Agro is not as super good as you need the Opp. plays 3 Blue Sources to make it work as Dark Ritual
is not effective until 2 blue mana is landed, at this point, it is like a RoF - not as good.

I like TES by its ability to go off when it is needed by doing so, you just extirpate this quality from TES.

Apart, I have questions to the New TES Manabase - Bryant:

- I just would like to know if having 11 Blue producers instead of 12 made you loose or provoke some ankward scenarios of a need of blue mana. (I mean that 7 fetches 1 Swamp, 1 bayou 2 volcanic 2 U.Sea manabase)

As talking to Lem some time before:
- go below 7 discard makes you worse vs Miracles
- go below 4 I.T. makes you less quick
- go below 3 C.M. makes you less quick

So my initial idea was that the less worse option was to move to 13 lands and -1 discard (as you did Bryant!) and as I still dont like it I still play 12 manabase with gemstones. and still 7 discards.
So my first question is:
have you tryed :
a) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Swamp
b) 8 fetches 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 1 Bayou

Which of these mana bases preferred and why?
I really do not see any reason to play 2 Non Blue producers in TES.

Mox w/o imprint is 0 mana, Cabal Ritual w/o two initial mana produces 0 mana. What's the point? The format is +80% blue atm so Carpet is actually producing mana in all matchup which deliver any resistance and it's a permanent manasource. With two Islands on your opponents side it's a colored Sol Ring, with three is a Black Lotus every round and even with just one Island it's a manastone. I have no idea why I seriously have to point out the difference between a Ritual effect and having the mana available each round. The logic of "you can't afford to run useless cards" is Alien to me as you already run Duress and can face creature decks like D&T in a tournament. Do you suggest running without discard due to that logic? No, you run MB discard because the metagame is full of counters and are ok with shuffling them away or imprinting them in a Mox if you play against non-blue. How is that any different to Carpet?

I don't get the point about talking about the manabase now. The topic was talked to death and I doubt anyone is interrested in going through all the same stuff again and again. He reasons for the manabase were presented several times and Bryant is not the guy wasting time to convince people dropping their 12-Lands manabase with Rainbows especially as the deck isn't running Bayou AND Swamp Maindeck. Seriously, you are making too many waves over the difference between 13 lands with 1-2 non blue sources and 12 all-blue producing lands in terms of mana-stability. I bet I have at least three times pointed out the advantage of additional shuffle effects and the lands not depleting from counters and destroying themselves while your try to cantrip/disrupt into a favorable position. If those are not enough reason for you to drop Gemstones, I am wasting my time here too

[Asthereal]

I don't get the point about talking about the manabase now. The topic was talked to death and I doubt anyone is interrested in going through all the same stuff again and again. He reasons for the manabase were presented several times and Bryant is not the guy wasting time to convince people dropping their 12-Lands manabase with Rainbows especially as the deck isn't running Bayou AND Swamp Maindeck. Seriously, you are making too many waves over the difference between 13 lands with 1-2 non blue sources and 12 all-blue producing lands in terms of mana-stability. I bet I have at least three times pointed out the advantage of additional shuffle effects and the lands not depleting from counters and destroying themselves while your try to cantrip/disrupt into a favorable position. If those are not enough reason for you to drop Gemstones, I am wasting my time here too

I have to disagree here. The mana base as it is now is quite new, and it's shaky to say the least, so it should always be open to discussion. Right after we dropped Silence, I remember you argueing that we should probably always keep a few Rainbow lands in since we still needed three colours, which is not easy for a 12-land deck.

On the first two turns, a Gemstone Mine is still strictly better than any Dual. Of course it sucks that it runs out, but we have been happy playing it for over five years regardless. But we also need to think about other aspects of the mana base. For instance: why run basics if we are going to run only one anyway? They just Waste all our other lands, and leave us with only B to work with. No cantrips to cast, no Wishes or Rites. Yes, I know we have Petals for that, but if we had unlimited access to Lotus Petal, we'd probably run 9 fetch, 1 Sea, 1 swamp and 1 island as mana base. I personally feel that playing only one basic makes little sense. I still run a non-basic base in TES and I still like it.

But, if you hate Gemstone Mine, allow me to present an alternative. Since pure aggro (Burn/Zoo/old Eva Green) is close to being extinct in competitive Legacy, our life points don't deplete as fast as they used to. Maybe it's time to reintroduce City of Brass (or in this case it's improved reprint, which I conveniently forgot the name of - I need to sleep more).

This looks nice:
2 City of Brass 2.0
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
6 Fetch /13

[seilaquem]

I have to disagree here. The mana base as it is now is quite new, and it's shaky to say the least, so it should always be open to discussion. Right after we dropped Silence, I remember you argueing that we should probably always keep a few Rainbow lands in since we still needed three colours, which is not easy for a 12-land deck.

On the first two turns, a Gemstone Mine is still strictly better than any Dual. Of course it sucks that it runs out, but we have been happy playing it for over five years regardless. But we also need to think about other aspects of the mana base. For instance: why run basics if we are going to run only one anyway? They just Waste all our other lands, and leave us with only B to work with. No cantrips to cast, no Wishes or Rites. Yes, I know we have Petals for that, but if we had unlimited access to Lotus Petal, we'd probably run 9 fetch, 1 Sea, 1 swamp and 1 island as mana base. I personally feel that playing only one basic makes little sense. I still run a non-basic base in TES and I still like it.

But, if you hate Gemstone Mine, allow me to present an alternative. Since pure aggro (Burn/Zoo/old Eva Green) is close to being extinct in competitive Legacy, our life points don't deplete as fast as they used to. Maybe it's time to reintroduce City of Brass (or in this case it's improved reprint, which I conveniently forgot the name of - I need to sleep more).

This looks nice:
2 City of Brass 2.0
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
6 Fetch /13

Mana confluence.

However, it still leaves tes vulnerable to wastelands. But it os a cool alternative, considering non agro metas

[Lemnear]

I have to disagree here. The mana base as it is now is quite new, and it's shaky to say the least, so it should always be open to discussion. Right after we dropped Silence, I remember you argueing that we should probably always keep a few Rainbow lands in since we still needed three colours, which is not easy for a 12-land deck.

Gemstones got replaced the moment we increased the landcount and the number of non-blue matchups dropped into oblivion. The point of Gemstones were to give you all the flexibility in the early turns, but of the metagame shifts away from being able to win via Belcher-Mode and you get slower down by taxing effects/counters and Wasteland, a land that slowly kills itself isn't helping you to Dismember your opponent over turns. Mind we're no longer talking about 11 or 12 lands we hand end of 2013 which marked the end of Silence. We can't win off a single land anymore in most cases and that turns the advantages of Rainbows Ad absurdum

On the first two turns, a Gemstone Mine is still strictly better than any Dual. Of course it sucks that it runs out, but we have been happy playing it for over five years regardless. But we also need to think about other aspects of the mana base. For instance: why run basics if we are going to run only one anyway? They just Waste all our other lands, and leave us with only B to work with. No cantrips to cast, no Wishes or Rites. Yes, I know we have Petals for that, but if we had unlimited access to Lotus Petal, we'd probably run 9 fetch, 1 Sea, 1 swamp and 1 island as mana base. I personally feel that playing only one basic makes little sense. I still run a non-basic base in TES and I still like it.

This is tricky. There are plenty of situations where you Brainstorm turn 2 and want to fetch afterwards to adjust your hand. Gemstone leads you to either not being able to fetch at all if you run them instead of Fetchlands or make Wasteland decisions far too easy as your opponent can sit out the Gemstone counters at times. The point why Bryant runs the sole Swamp is that you fetch the Volcanic on demand only so you have always access to BR with two IMS without ever getting interrupted by Wasteland.

But, if you hate Gemstone Mine, allow me to present an alternative. Since pure aggro (Burn/Zoo/old Eva Green) is close to being extinct in competitive Legacy, our life points don't deplete as fast as they used to. Maybe it's time to reintroduce City of Brass (or in this case it's improved reprint, which I conveniently forgot the name of - I need to sleep more).

If I'd spend a lifepoint I don't see why it should to be for City instead for a fetch in favor of improved cantrips. We have to prepare for longer games instead of racing Aggro and there Fetches really shine compared to Rainbows.

[Bryant Cook]

Just a warning: All information has been removed from the opening post and has been replaced with the information to find the website and social media pages.

[CabalTherapy]

Just a warning: All information has been removed from the opening post and has been replaced with the information to find the website and social media pages.

In fact, a sad development.
By the way, I hope you know that "designed" and "created" are synonyms thus kind of redundant in a descriptive utterance. It's like a tutor chain with synonyms.
I can recommend the thesaurus for searching purpose. xD http://www.thesaurus.com/
(Please, don't read any negative attitude into my comment as I certainly support any kind of Storm deck.)

[Ebonclaw]

I agree with the reasoning behind cutting Gemstones to a fair extent. Which is kind of unfortunate after I just got a foil playset, but it is what it is I suppose. One thing I do think I will miss from rainbow lands is the consistency of access to G for T1 Xantid/Carpet after postboard however, and the assistance they provide when casting Abrupt Decay and these are such important sideboard cards to stick if they're in your opener that I feel this is the largest drawback to cutting them. Gemstone I don't think necessarily has to be a 4x or 0x, maybe I'll try a manabase running it as a 2x- I think both manabases still have their own merits but I'm starting to lean more heavily after reading the above posts that the number might be needing to be decreased to some degree, or, as the most experienced players have done, cut altogether. I do like the mana flexibility offered, though, and some opponents are hesitant to wasteland a land that they see will blow itself up anyway eventually.

Also, I might try the 1x Carpet main, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world, and Lemnear makes a very valid point that sometimes your discard effects are equally susceptible to being blanks. Where does this get slotted Lem? In place of a discard effect to not increase the number of cards that are occasionally "off" or in the place of a mox or other permanent mana source to keep the discard package full?
Adding a single card that is mono green adds to my desire to ensure or at least assist the ability to produce G on T1 without impacting speed or life; Gemstone Mine is still the card that does this job well. Plus, if you stick carpet, I'm probably just fine with Gemstones blowing themselves up eventually if the game goes that long.

[Lemnear]

One thing I do think I will miss from rainbow lands is the consistency of access to G for T1 Xantid/Carpet after postboard however, and the assistance they provide when casting Abrupt Decay and these are such important sideboard cards to stick if they're in your opener that I feel this is the largest drawback to cutting them.

There is a reason for 7-8 Fetches and a Bayou postboard. The access to green mana turn 1 on demand is significantly greater than with Gemstones. T1 U.Sea + Cantrip into T2 Fetch for Bayou -> Duress/Xantid/Decay/Therapy is easy to achieve even without Gemstones.

Gemstone I don't think necessarily has to be a 4x or 0x, maybe I'll try a manabase running it as a 2x- I think both manabases still have their own merits but I'm starting to lean more heavily after reading the above posts that the number might be needing to be decreased to some degree, or, as the most experienced players have done, cut altogether. I do like the mana flexibility offered, though, and some opponents are hesitant to wasteland a land that they see will blow itself up anyway eventually.

correct. Getting out of Wasteland/Daze range is a lot easier with sitting on fetches than playing with lands which are exposed to Wasteland, blow themselves up and harm your cantripping

Also, I might try the 1x Carpet main, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world, and Lemnear makes a very valid point that sometimes your discard effects are equally susceptible to being blanks. Where does this get slotted Lem?

The comment from me was just in regards to the fact that this deck has to deal with "blanks" anyways and situational cards are not that bad in general. I have not done real testing with them, as it was just brainstorming but I would cut around the 7th discard, the 4th infernal, the second & third Mox for example so try them maindeck. We have some dear storm pilots who managed to free MB slots for Cabal Rituals or Rain of Filth as well, so I think these slots are interchangable. Just have in mind that you need to run the Bayou instead of the MB swamp

In place of a discard effect to not increase the number of cards that are occasionally "off" or in the place of a mox or other permanent mana source to keep the discard package full?
Adding a single card that is mono green adds to my desire to ensure or at least assist the ability to produce G on T1 without impacting speed or life; Gemstone Mine is still the card that does this job well. Plus, if you stick carpet, I'm probably just fine with Gemstones blowing themselves up eventually if the game goes that long.

Again: 7-8 Fetches + Bayou >> 4 Gemstones for casting T1 Carpets

[Pelikanudo]

Mox w/o imprint is 0 mana, Cabal Ritual w/o two initial mana produces 0 mana. What's the point? The format is +80% blue atm so Carpet is actually producing mana in all matchup which deliver any resistance and it's a permanent manasource. With two Islands on your opponents side it's a colored Sol Ring, with three is a Black Lotus every round and even with just one Island it's a manastone. I have no idea why I seriously have to point out the difference between a Ritual effect and having the mana available each round. The logic of "you can't afford to run useless cards" is Alien to me as you already run Duress and can face creature decks like D&T in a tournament. Do you suggest running without discard due to that logic? No, you run MB discard because the metagame is full of counters and are ok with shuffling them away or imprinting them in a Mox if you play against non-blue. How is that any different to Carpet?

I don't get the point about talking about the manabase now. The topic was talked to death and I doubt anyone is interrested in going through all the same stuff again and again. He reasons for the manabase were presented several times and Bryant is not the guy wasting time to convince people dropping their 12-Lands manabase with Rainbows especially as the deck isn't running Bayou AND Swamp Maindeck. Seriously, you are making too many waves over the difference between 13 lands with 1-2 non blue sources and 12 all-blue producing lands in terms of mana-stability. I bet I have at least three times pointed out the advantage of additional shuffle effects and the lands not depleting from counters and destroying themselves while your try to cantrip/disrupt into a favorable position. If those are not enough reason for you to drop Gemstones, I am wasting my time here too

Well,

I really didnt want to convice or to give any reasoning to run or not to run gemstones, for me 4 gemstones is a must in a 12 lands build, as
a. I want to run 7 disruption effects
b. want the most chances to get my initial mana requirements
c. do not want to run less than 8 tutor effects.

well Ill stop to discuss this, I just was asking a more specific question to the mana base about bayou and swamp which was answered and yes this has been discussing to death so I wont discuss this anymore.

Apart, regarding Carpet and the reasoning about the example you posted about C.M.

I believe that a Storm deck NEEDS to run 6 to 7 disruption, and this disruption package can have useless cards vs diff. decks. if your meta is for example 70 percent hatebears I would package then instead of duress T.Seize. or even CoV, What I cant agree on is in replacing C.M OR RoF OR any mana producer BY carpet of flawers, I could replace maybe duress for that, but never C.M., as C.M is a guarranteed mana source for ALL match ups we could face. maybe that is the idea - to replace duress for carpet - this doesnt sound to me non sense. but you can not compare any of the mana source we currently have to carpet for the reason Im mentioning. I think speed is a matter in TES. at least I still have to face Pox, lands and hatebears...

EDIT well you mentioned that the deck isnt running bayou AND swamp anymore, I saw the Web Site and still runs both maindeck, where this has been changed? I have limited access to facebook ritgh now...

[Bryant Cook]

Post-SCGWOR Sideboard Developments - Read More »

[Lemnear]

Well,

I really didnt want to convice or to give any reasoning to run or not to run gemstones, for me 4 gemstones is a must in a 12 lands build, as
a. I want to run 7 disruption effects
b. want the most chances to get my initial mana requirements
c. do not want to run less than 8 tutor effects.

...which ignores the question, if it's wise to run only 12 lands in the first place in a metagame with 75%+ decks running FoW and potentially slowing you down anyways, so the 1-land-hand isn't a good starting grip at all in most cases and especially with Brainstorm involved. Your point b) got already adressed: Fetchlands and Bayou deliver a lot more density for T1 green mana than Gemstones. The ONLY advantage a Gemstone has is, that if it's paired with another black Dual, you can cast eot Decay -> mainphase Ritual+RoF off two lands. The points a) & c) have no direct relevance for the landbase you discuss, so I'm not sure why you bring them up, nor why those should weight more than the cantrip quality.

In general and for other users as well: The reason why TES is even still a deck in this blue-centric metagame and has no been totally replaced by ANT and it's superior lategame potential is that the average opposing clock is pretty slow and AN is usually still fine if cast turn 3 or 4 unlike in the TC era, which sure also has an impact on EtWs relative power compared to AN. The decks speed advantage these days is mainly relevant against Thalia, Hymn, Counterbalance and DTT. Non-blue decks online are <16% atm. Keep that in mind.

Apart, regarding Carpet and the reasoning about the example you posted about C.M.

I believe that a Storm deck NEEDS to run 6 to 7 disruption, and this disruption package can have useless cards vs diff. decks. if your meta is for example 70 percent hatebears I would package then instead of duress T.Seize. or even CoV, What I cant agree on is in replacing C.M OR RoF OR any mana producer BY carpet of flawers, I could replace maybe duress for that, but never C.M., as C.M is a guarranteed mana source for ALL match ups we could face. maybe that is the idea - to replace duress for carpet - this doesnt sound to me non sense. but you can not compare any of the mana source we currently have to carpet for the reason Im mentioning. I think speed is a matter in TES. at least I still have to face Pox, lands and hatebears...

Mox guarentees NO mana if you don't have imprint and if you have it's a two-card investment for a single mana in the color of your imprint, while Carpet has the potential to generate several mana of your choice each turn for only an one-card-investment. Apples and Oranges. It's like trying to compare Mox and Cabal Ritual with you pointing at potenial graveyard hate rendering CR useless. Again: We're talking about a metagame with 80%+ blue decks and not Pox or Lands in that dimension, otherwise I would play Belcher instead.

EDIT well you mentioned that the deck isnt running bayou AND swamp anymore, I saw the Web Site and still runs both maindeck, where this has been changed? I have limited access to facebook ritgh now...

In my defence, Bryant is switching a lot forth and back for testing and not everything whats currently on the mainpage is necessarily the result of a consense of testing, ideas, philosophy or even the current state of the art, as you can see in regards to the SB article released yesterday, as the switches weren't immediately transfered to the frontpage for obvious reasons. Consider to not name the frontpage list your sole base for discussion. If I just take the manabases of you, Dustin, Bryant and me as examples, one can see how different the ideas can be (Rainbows/CabalRituals/Moxen/Rains).

[Ebonclaw]

There is a reason for 7-8 Fetches and a Bayou postboard. The access to green mana turn 1 on demand is significantly greater than with Gemstones. T1 U.Sea + Cantrip into T2 Fetch for Bayou -> Duress/Xantid/Decay/Therapy is easy to achieve even without Gemstones.



correct. Getting out of Wasteland/Daze range is a lot easier with sitting on fetches than playing with lands which are exposed to Wasteland, blow themselves up and harm your cantripping



The comment from me was just in regards to the fact that this deck has to deal with "blanks" anyways and situational cards are not that bad in general. I have not done real testing with them, as it was just brainstorming but I would cut around the 7th discard, the 4th infernal, the second & third Mox for example so try them maindeck. We have some dear storm pilots who managed to free MB slots for Cabal Rituals or Rain of Filth as well, so I think these slots are interchangable. Just have in mind that you need to run the Bayou instead of the MB swamp



Again: 7-8 Fetches + Bayou >> 4 Gemstones for casting T1 Carpets

Thank you for your input Lem, I always learn a lot from your posts and you back your thoughts very well; I should like to try the Bayou manabase, I had tried the manabase featuring basic island and swamp and hated it, but I think I'll like the Bayou build. I probably would have noticed this from looking at the manabase a little more closely, but sometimes I miss the forest/swamp for the trees.....

[Lemnear]

Thank you for your input Lem, I always learn a lot from your posts and you back your thoughts very well; I should like to try the Bayou manabase, I had tried the manabase featuring basic island and swamp and hated it, but I think I'll like the Bayou build. I probably would have noticed this from looking at the manabase a little more closely, but sometimes I miss the forest/swamp for the trees.....

Are you in the Facebook group? If not: Hello! ;)

[Darklingske]

Last weekend I played TES in a GPT. I went 2-3. The MU:
R1 Belcher 1-2
I lost the die roll...
R2 BUGDelver 2-0
G1 he had a hand without counters, G2 I had the discard.
R3 ANT 0-2
I lost the die roll again and had to mulligan to 6 & 5. He was a bit faster then me.
R4 Miracles 2-1
G2 was extra long, but I won with a nice chain with PiF.
R5 Infect 1-2
Lost the die roll again and G3 mull to 5. G3 I tried to bounce his critter in response to the lethal Berserk, but he had the counter.

I don't know. The deck never gave me awesome hands and I had to mulligan a lot. Sideboarding was done with Bryant's guide and it felt very good.

[Lemnear]

I'm always VERY interrested if players mull a lot and especially going down to 5 as I usually keep the first playable hand and have a very low mulligan rate myself. Do you have taken notes or remember some of the starting hands you threw away? I would like to discuss the matter :)