[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

I'm always VERY interrested if players mull a lot and especially going down to 5 as I usually keep the first playable hand and have a very low mulligan rate myself. Do you have taken notes or remember some of the starting hands you threw away? I would like to discuss the matter :)

I'm with Lem, I don't mulligan that often.

[Togores]

I also dont mull.
I do think ppl mull too agresively trying to get hands that go of fast instead of making setups.
Usualy in the dark if you can play your hand more or less dont mull.

[Lemnear]

I also dont mull.
I do think ppl mull too agresively trying to get hands that go of fast instead of making setups.
Usualy in the dark if you can play your hand more or less dont mull.

I suspect, the mathematical myth of "mulling into a faster hand", is still widespread

P.S. a personal request: Would you guys mind using my name or complete username instead of "Lem" or shortings alike? Gives me itches like calling Bryant "Brian" or writing "Rod" if talking about Togores. You have my thanks

[Pelikanudo]

I'm always VERY interrested if players mull a lot and especially going down to 5 as I usually keep the first playable hand and have a very low mulligan rate myself. Do you have taken notes or remember some of the starting hands you threw away? I would like to discuss the matter :)

I almost never mull.
EDIT: Ok... I'll say Lemnear, sure Lem is what your girlfriend (or boyfriend) names you...

[Lemnear]

I almost never mull.
EDIT: Ok... I'll say Lemnear, sure Lem is what your girlfriend (or boyfriend) names you...

I suspect something would be very wrong if my girlfriend calls me by my forum name ;)

[Darklingske]

I didn't keep notes, but if I remember it right, I mulled twice because no lands or petals at all. Once because there were 4 lands in hand together with 2 Infernals & an empty. One game I lost I kept a one-lander along with double Brainstorm and a ponder. Unfortunately, I never saw a second land and brainstormlocked myself.

[LDX]

Hey there,

First off, that might be long and confused: I still haven’t slept, and I’m still under shock of my painful losses. I apologized in advance.

Just came back from a weekly event, ended 2-2. I’m very slowly trying to understand what’s going wrong whenever I play TES, as my win rate is much lower than with any other deck. No, it’s not a difficult meta, it’s completely me as a player. I need help. No judgment, please, but yes, I’m ashamed.

After tonight, I can say that the matches I win, I win turn 1 or turn 2. I don’t ever remember a win pass turn 3 with the deck, usually, my hand just get shredded. It could also be that my main was to practice is to goldfish, so I’m not used to have any opposition. Oh well.

I’m playing Bryant’s list from 05/20, with the exception of 3 Thoughtseize instead of 3 Xantid Swarm in the side. I don’t have any blue deck in my meta, no Reanimator, no Omnitell, Sneak and Show, or Miracles. Nothing.
Before going to sleep, I would like to clear my mind on two things, the first being the start of a game I played.


Game 2, Match 1. TES (me) vs Blue Manaless Dredge (Alexe)

I won first game rather easily, getting a turn 1 Tendrils after Ad Nauseam. Since she’s Manaless Dredge, I’m on the play the second game too. I boarded out Empty the Warren and 2x Ponder to bring in the 3x Thoughtseize.

My opening is, as far I as I remember, something like this:
Underground Sea, Duress, LED, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy

My turn 1 is the following: Underground > Duress.

Her hand shows the following: Mindbreak Trap, Disrupting Shoal, Dread Return, Narcomoeba, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian.

My first mistake, I think. I take out Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap, because I’m afraid for my tutor, thinking I’ll be able to get rid of the Mindbreak Trap with a Burning Wish > Thoughtseize. First, I shouldn’t be afraid for my tutor since I have two, second, I boarded all my Thoughtseize anyway. Is my correction correct, is my first play good at all if I take out the Mindbreak Trap?

At her turn, she can’t put a card in the grave since she doesn’t have 8 cards in hand. I draw a Polluted Delta. I play the Delta, go for an Underground Sea. I Cabal Therapy right away, naming Whirlpool Rider, for some unknown reason. I mean, I’m, as I’m writing this, watching the recorded game. I just don’t understand why I didn’t get the Mindbreak Trap, especially with the Disrupting Shoal gone. The whole point was to get her not to use her grave, so I don’t think discarding was the wrong choice, but what I discard was horrid. That would cost me game 3 at least.


Actually, here is a list of the plays.

Turn 1 LDX: Underground Sea > Duress
Alexe reveal MBT, Dread Return, Disrupting Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll. A bad card
Duress = Disrupting Shoal

Turn 1 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 2 LDX: Polluted Delta to Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy = Whirlpool Rider

Turn 2 Alexe; Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 3 LDX: Cabal Therapy = Mindbreak Trap

Turn 3 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 4 LDX: Draws a fetch, goes for Volcanic. Goes Infernal Tutor, shows LED.

Turn 4 Alexe: End of her turn, she gets to put a Grave Troll in her grave.

Turn 5 LDX: I draw a land and play a fetch, that’s my 4th land. Now I panic since I couldn’t win despite my disruption. I play 2 LEDs, pay for Burning Wish to reach Empty the Warren, but hold priority to crack BOTH LEDS instead of just one. I only needed the mana of one, but I cracked two, yet I don’t think this is my biggest mistake. It doesn’t seem like going for 8 goblins at this stage of the game was worth it. At all. At the very worst, I guess, I could have casted that second Burning Wish to add a Storm counter, pick up, let’s say, Grapeshot, not play it yet but have it in hand. That would have been 2 more Goblins in play and I would have won the game in the following turns, as it shows.

Turn 5 Alexe: She Dredges her Grave Troll for 6. She passes the turn, drops a Neither Shadow in her grave by the end of her turn.

Turn 6 LDX: Attack with 8 golbins.

Turn 6 Alexe: Dredges for 6

Turn 7 LDX: Attacks for 8.

Turn 7 Alexe: Brings back Nether Shadow, Nether Shadow, Ichorid. Dredges for 5. She attacks for 5. I block nothing as all my goblins are tapped, but I guess I should have left one untapped to block, die, and get rid of the Bridges.
Cabal Therapy on me. I respond Brainstorm. She sees Ponder&Duress. She has 3 Bridges from Below in the grave at that point, so she gets 3 zombies. Then again, she casts an other Cabal Therapy on me, getting rid of my Ponder, an
other 3 zombies. Ichorid leaves play, an other 3 zombies. She has 9 untapped zombie ready for me at my turn.

Turn 8 LDX: Draws, I don’t attack. I have 8 goblins, she has 9 zombies. Nothing to do in this game anymore.

Now what could I have done better? Wait longer to go off? Try to reach Ad Nauseam instead of Burning Wish? Should I have went for Tendrils instead of Goblins? I totally feels like I had this game and was ripped. Moreover, it feels like I know the solution to it, but I just can’t figure it all out. Game 3 was also a loss, but mostly because I named Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap. It was an easy spotted mistake, my bad, that won’t happen again. However, for this game 2… I don’t know. I just don’t know.


Game 2/3 vs Pox, The Gate or any mass discard deck

The other thing I need some thoughts on is, how to beat black controlish decks like Pox (BG) and The Gate. I’ve played the guy twice, once he was with Pox, today, with The Gate. I always win the first game because of an easy combo turn 1 or 2, before he does anything to me.

Then we sideboard. I removed an Empty the Warren for a Tendrils of Agony, because I know he has mass removal just for me. He leads with Turn 1 Cabal Therapy on Tutors (or Inquisition of Kozlilek), Turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, and at this point I’m way too behind. I can never lift back up after so much discard.

Game 3, I keep the same sideboard changes. I can’t win turn 1, nor turn 2. Quick question there, do I use my own discard first, or do I use cantrips already? Obviously, implying I can’t win right away. Them, do I drop all my 0 mana artifacts just to avoid the discard, despite the fear of Phyrexian Revoker, the lack of Storm counter, and the fatal Hymn to Tourach on the rest of my hand?

All the time, the same two situation happens: I either can’t go at all, or can only go for a small number of goblins that either gets removed or that can’t trade with his own Jitte-equipped Vampire Nighthawks, or Mishra’s Factory.
Against him, I’m mostly looking for general advices vs so much discard. I don’t have a specific situation and wil try to report better next week, hopefully with a better camera angle so that I can see everything that happens and relates better.

Thank you very much for this time, hope it wasn’t too long!

TL;DR: 1) How could I win the reported game 2) General advice on how to beat Pox/TheGate/Heavy Discard decks?

[vercadium]

P.S. a personal request: Would you guys mind using my name or complete username instead of "Lem" or shortings alike? Gives me itches like calling Bryant "Brian" or writing "Rod" if talking about Togores. You have my thanks

I deviate between 'Peter' and 'Lemnear'. Do you have a preference?

Very excited for GP Lille in a few weeks! I'm attending a GPT for it tomorrow in Dublin; hopefully it goes well!

I'm giving Carpet of Flowers a go (again). Hopefully they don't suck this time. Seems every time we attempt to use the card, it stays in the sideboard for about a month, then we all reach a consensus to cut it.

As an aside, the basic swamp has been "ok-ish". It's been pretty good on some occasions and it's certainly rarely "bad" (I don't find myself "colour-screwed" much with proper usage). However, the situations were it is both A) More relevant than a dual would have been and B) able to be fetched without restricting our access to needed colours, are less frequent than I expected when I began using the card.

That said, The combination of Swamp + Volcanic Island has been superb. But with so many green cards in my current sideboard, I have definitely contemplated another green source (most likely Tropical Island) to introduce a little redundancy instead. Rolling with the stock set-up for the moment though.

Take it easy folks!

[vercadium]

...[Your post]...

Hi LDX!

I've written a little guidance below; I hope it helps! I'm a little rushed at the moment, so I don't have time to go into too much detail. Apologies if it is a little curt:

There is no need to be ashamed. You're doing the right thing my focusing on improving; being critical and taking responsibility for what happened. Keep practicing and keep learning.

-----

Firstly, I wouldn't run multiple Thoughtseize as a Xantid Swarm replacement. Thoughtseize's lifeloss is a real detriment to this deck. We don't need more discard.

So what to use instead?

Honestly, if you don't have any blue decks to play against, then your deck list is wide open. A large portion of the design of TES is devoted to dealing with the blue decks in the room. Without them, you're basically just playing a slower Belcher deck.

That said, if your goals are outside of dominating your local tournaments and you want to keep playing TES, you can modify your deck with cards that were removed due to their poor performance against the (mostly blue) meta.

Begin by looking at some of the older engines that were removed, such as Ill-Gotten Gains and/or Diminishing Returns and go from there.

-----

As for your games, your fate in the match against Dredge was sealed when you decided to keep that hand. We could examine what happened after this, but I believe it would serve little purpose. Against Dredge, you need to focus on winning as soon as possible. The hand you kept was too slow and had a very poor chance of winning.

You were correct to cut the Empty the Warrens when sideboarding here, but you should not have cut the Ponders. Again, focus on killing them as soon as possible. Bringing in 1 Thoughtseize was fine.

-----

As for Pox and other discard heavy decks, again you should focus on killing them as soon as possible. To help accomplish this, you usually want to keep in Empty the Warrens. If they have disruption for this plan (removal, blockers etc), you can usually kill them before it is relevant, or rip it from their hand with Cabal Therapy or otherwise.

Another important piece of advice for these match-ups is to play out your artifact mana as soon as possible. What often happens then is that you will sit with a ton of mana on the battlefield and 0 cards in hand. Once you draw a tutor, you kill them. You should also save your Brainstorms to protect your important cards from their discard.

It can be a little tricky as some of these decks run hateful permanents, in which case you may want to bring in cards to answer those. E.g. Abrupt Decay for Chalice of the Void. You'll have to gauge when this is correct yourself.

-----

If you do this, you should win these match-ups the majority of the time.

Again - you've got the right attitude! Keep it up! :)

[Lemnear]

Hey there,

First off, that might be long and confused: I still haven’t slept, and I’m still under shock of my painful losses. I apologized in advance.

Just came back from a weekly event, ended 2-2. I’m very slowly trying to understand what’s going wrong whenever I play TES, as my win rate is much lower than with any other deck. No, it’s not a difficult meta, it’s completely me as a player. I need help. No judgment, please, but yes, I’m ashamed.

After tonight, I can say that the matches I win, I win turn 1 or turn 2. I don’t ever remember a win pass turn 3 with the deck, usually, my hand just get shredded. It could also be that my main was to practice is to goldfish, so I’m not used to have any opposition. Oh well.

I’m playing Bryant’s list from 05/20, with the exception of 3 Thoughtseize instead of 3 Xantid Swarm in the side. I don’t have any blue deck in my meta, no Reanimator, no Omnitell, Sneak and Show, or Miracles. Nothing.
Before going to sleep, I would like to clear my mind on two things, the first being the start of a game I played.

Why Thoughtseize? If I don't expect any blue deck but mainly permanent hate, why not run more CoVs, yard-hate or sweepers?

Game 2, Match 1. TES (me) vs Blue Manaless Dredge (Alexe)

I won first game rather easily, getting a turn 1 Tendrils after Ad Nauseam. Since she’s Manaless Dredge, I’m on the play the second game too. I boarded out Empty the Warren and 2x Ponder to bring in the 3x Thoughtseize.

Manaless has one hell of a problem to race T1 Goblins. Just saying

My opening is, as far I as I remember, something like this:
Underground Sea, Duress, LED, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Therapy

This is a clear mulligan. LED, Wish and Infernal are totally dead cards and AN needs runna-runna Rituals or a topdeck Brainstorm (finding a Fetch). It would never do anything before turn 4. It's a virtual mulligan to 4 to keep it.

My turn 1 is the following: Underground > Duress.

Her hand shows the following: Mindbreak Trap, Disrupting Shoal, Dread Return, Narcomoeba, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian.

My first mistake, I think. I take out Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap, because I’m afraid for my tutor, thinking I’ll be able to get rid of the Mindbreak Trap with a Burning Wish > Thoughtseize. First, I shouldn’t be afraid for my tutor since I have two, second, I boarded all my Thoughtseize anyway. Is my correction correct, is my first play good at all if I take out the Mindbreak Trap?

Not that it matters much, but yeah, take the Trap and drop the LED in that situation

At her turn, she can’t put a card in the grave since she doesn’t have 8 cards in hand. I draw a Polluted Delta. I play the Delta, go for an Underground Sea. I Cabal Therapy right away, naming Whirlpool Rider, for some unknown reason. I mean, I’m, as I’m writing this, watching the recorded game. I just don’t understand why I didn’t get the Mindbreak Trap, especially with the Disrupting Shoal gone. The whole point was to get her not to use her grave, so I don’t think discarding was the wrong choice, but what I discard was horrid. That would cost me game 3 at least.

Actually, here is a list of the plays.

Turn 1 LDX: Underground Sea > Duress
Alexe reveal MBT, Dread Return, Disrupting Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool Rider, Golgari Grave Troll. A bad card
Duress = Disrupting Shoal

Turn 1 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 2 LDX: Polluted Delta to Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy = Whirlpool Rider

Turn 2 Alexe; Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 3 LDX: Cabal Therapy = Mindbreak Trap

Turn 3 Alexe: Draws, can’t do anything (now 7 cards in hand)

Turn 4 LDX: Draws a fetch, goes for Volcanic. Goes Infernal Tutor, shows LED.

Turn 4 Alexe: End of her turn, she gets to put a Grave Troll in her grave.

Turn 5 LDX: I draw a land and play a fetch, that’s my 4th land. Now I panic since I couldn’t win despite my disruption. I play 2 LEDs, pay for Burning Wish to reach Empty the Warren, but hold priority to crack BOTH LEDS instead of just one. I only needed the mana of one, but I cracked two, yet I don’t think this is my biggest mistake. It doesn’t seem like going for 8 goblins at this stage of the game was worth it. At all. At the very worst, I guess, I could have casted that second Burning Wish to add a Storm counter, pick up, let’s say, Grapeshot, not play it yet but have it in hand. That would have been 2 more Goblins in play and I would have won the game in the following turns, as it shows.

Hmmmm... Why not infernal for more lands to make sure you can cast the AN sooner or later? Why not Wish for Ponder? Why do you fetch an LED you can't use to cast AN anyways? I'm sure AN would have won before she could have killed you.

Turn 5 Alexe: She Dredges her Grave Troll for 6. She passes the turn, drops a Neither Shadow in her grave by the end of her turn.

Turn 6 LDX: Attack with 8 golbins.

Turn 6 Alexe: Dredges for 6

Turn 7 LDX: Attacks for 8.

Turn 7 Alexe: Brings back Nether Shadow, Nether Shadow, Ichorid. Dredges for 5. She attacks for 5. I block nothing as all my goblins are tapped, but I guess I should have left one untapped to block, die, and get rid of the Bridges.
Cabal Therapy on me. I respond Brainstorm. She sees Ponder&Duress. She has 3 Bridges from Below in the grave at that point, so she gets 3 zombies. Then again, she casts an other Cabal Therapy on me, getting rid of my Ponder, an
other 3 zombies. Ichorid leaves play, an other 3 zombies. She has 9 untapped zombie ready for me at my turn.

Turn 8 LDX: Draws, I don’t attack. I have 8 goblins, she has 9 zombies. Nothing to do in this game anymore.

Now what could I have done better? Wait longer to go off? Try to reach Ad Nauseam instead of Burning Wish? Should I have went for Tendrils instead of Goblins? I totally feels like I had this game and was ripped. Moreover, it feels like I know the solution to it, but I just can’t figure it all out. Game 3 was also a loss, but mostly because I named Disrupting Shoal instead of Mindbreak Trap. It was an easy spotted mistake, my bad, that won’t happen again. However, for this game 2… I don’t know. I just don’t know.

You can't keep that hand. You were lucky to draw mana and had all options to win if you don't panic and threw the hand away for mere 8 Goblins, bit work towards Ad Nauseam. Have you thought about wishing for Ponder?. Add these two mayor mistakes to the minor one with MBT and you have your reason for the loss.

Game 2/3 vs Pox, The Gate or any mass discard deck

The other thing I need some thoughts on is, how to beat black controlish decks like Pox (BG) and The Gate. I’ve played the guy twice, once he was with Pox, today, with The Gate. I always win the first game because of an easy combo turn 1 or 2, before he does anything to me.

Then we sideboard. I removed an Empty the Warren for a Tendrils of Agony, because I know he has mass removal just for me. He leads with Turn 1 Cabal Therapy on Tutors (or Inquisition of Kozlilek), Turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, and at this point I’m way too behind. I can never lift back up after so much discard.

Don't remove EtW just because he MAY has answers. If you empty the warrens ans he has a hand full of discard and landdestruction, you win. If he keeps a hand with solutions to goblins, you cast AN, If he has both, get rid of discard first. You may Therapy the discard and clear the sweepers with the flashback after goblins are on the field. Common strategy. Don't board ToA. I hate that one as it limits your access to ToA too much (basically to IT + LED post AN)

Game 3, I keep the same sideboard changes. I can’t win turn 1, nor turn 2. Quick question there, do I use my own discard first, or do I use cantrips already? Obviously, implying I can’t win right away. Them, do I drop all my 0 mana artifacts just to avoid the discard, despite the fear of Phyrexian Revoker, the lack of Storm counter, and the fatal Hymn to Tourach on the rest of my hand?

You drop your mana, discard his discard and play off the top with your cantrips. That sequence.

All the time, the same two situation happens: I either can’t go at all, or can only go for a small number of goblins that either gets removed or that can’t trade with his own Jitte-equipped Vampire Nighthawks, or Mishra’s Factory.

Have you thought about how your boarding decreased your speed in this matchup that Nighthawk + Jitte really became a factor?

I deviate between 'Peter' and 'Lemnear'. Do you have a preference?

nope. We're FB friends, so you can choose or switch forth and back ;)

Very excited for GP Lille in a few weeks! I'm attending a GPT for it tomorrow in Dublin; hopefully it goes well!

dito. Don't leave my Probes at home, Adam :p

That said, The combination of Swamp + Volcanic Island has been superb. But with so many green cards in my current sideboard, I have definitely contemplated another green source (most likely Tropical Island) to introduce a little redundancy instead. Rolling with the stock set-up for the moment though.

Take it easy folks!

well, a 2/2/2 split of Sea/Volcanic/Bayou in the 75 isn't unheared of.

[LDX]

First off, thank you for your help. I just wanted to explain, before anything else, that I'm playing TES in this meta because I still can't fully grasp the concept of speed, when to do what, everything, and that I need huge practice before going in other tournaments. Yes, an other deck would have more chances of winning but wouldn't give me the practice I need.

Why Thoughtseize? If I don't expect any blue deck but mainly permanent hate, why not run more CoVs, yard-hate or sweepers?

I tried to adapt the side for my meta and went 3 Thoughtseize because I knew a Manaless Dredge would be present, and tried to follow advices I got in this thread telling me how discard was good vs them. Since it's Manaless, they need to have 7 cards in hand before doing anything, as they need their own discard phase to start. That was my reasonning. If I had to to it all again, I would probably go 1 Thoughtseize and 2 CoV. Or keep the Xandith just to feel a bit more complete, even tho they're most likely useless. Or could they be good vs Blue Manaless?



Regarding the Dredge match

You were correct to cut the Empty the Warrens when sideboarding here, but you should not have cut the Ponders. Again, focus on killing them as soon as possible. Bringing in 1 Thoughtseize was fine.

I thought Ponder was a cut for fast match, and Chrome Mox for slow one. I wanted to kill them as soon as possible, that was my goal. I just knew Thoughtseize would give me some extra turn vs Manaless. Was it all wrong?

Hi LDX!
As for your games, your fate in the match against Dredge was sealed when you decided to keep that hand. We could examine what happened after this, but I believe it would serve little purpose. Against Dredge, you need to focus on winning as soon as possible. The hand you kept was too slow and had a very poor chance of winning.

This is a clear mulligan. LED, Wish and Infernal are totally dead cards and AN needs runna-runna Rituals or a topdeck Brainstorm (finding a Fetch). It would never do anything before turn 4. It's a virtual mulligan to 4 to keep it.

Hmmmm... Why not infernal for more lands to make sure you can cast the AN sooner or later? Why not Wish for Ponder? Why do you fetch an LED you can't use to cast AN anyways? I'm sure AN would have won before she could have killed you.

Fine, I should have mulligan. There's still a fog I would like to clear out tho. You both agree that I needed to win ASAP. From what I understood, the quickest way to win a game with TES is to go for Empty the Warren. Is that just wrong? It seems like, implicitly, you're both saying Ad Nauseam would have been a better choice. I might have been wrong, but I didn't want to play control keeping this hand (well, maybe the first turn, considering it was vs Manaless), I wanted to win ASAP like you guys mention it. I thought keeping a hand with LED and two tutors would secure me at least an Empty the Warren, and in my case, Ad Nauseam seemed to be the dead card. You guys are clearly telling me I have the wrong conception on ''winning fast'': it's a tough question, but how the hell should I view it? What is ''winning fast'' !?

Not that it matters much, but yeah, take the Trap and drop the LED in that situation

Why would you drop the LED? Isn't it a missed Storm counter?

You can't keep that hand. You were lucky to draw mana and had all options to win if you don't panic and threw the hand away for mere 8 Goblins, bit work towards Ad Nauseam. Have you thought about wishing for Ponder?. Add these two mayor mistakes to the minor one with MBT and you have your reason for the loss.

I thought about it, but Ad Nauseam seemed like the dead card in my hand, so no, I did nothing I could to cast it as I thought it was the wrong play to do. Just to confirm, again, you're telling me Ad Nauseam IS the fastest way to win, and not Goblins?



Regarding Black matches

As for Pox and other discard heavy decks, again you should focus on killing them as soon as possible. To help accomplish this, you usually want to keep in Empty the Warrens. If they have disruption for this plan (removal, blockers etc), you can usually kill them before it is relevant, or rip it from their hand with Cabal Therapy or otherwise.

Don't remove EtW just because he MAY has answers. If you empty the warrens ans he has a hand full of discard and landdestruction, you win. If he keeps a hand with solutions to goblins, you cast AN, If he has both, get rid of discard first. You may Therapy the discard and clear the sweepers with the flashback after goblins are on the field. Common strategy. Don't board ToA. I hate that one as it limits your access to ToA too much (basically to IT + LED post AN)

Fine. But then, he top decks a sweeper. All the time. Is it just pure badluck and should I accept that this is unwinnable, or is there some way to get back up that I don't know of? I mean, I usually have no hands by that point, 10 goblins in play that are now gone. What should I focus to win the game after? Cantrips for Ad Nauseam? Tendrils? Grapeshot? What becomes my backup plan?

Another important piece of advice for these match-ups is to play out your artifact mana as soon as possible. What often happens then is that you will sit with a ton of mana on the battlefield and 0 cards in hand. Once you draw a tutor, you kill them. You should also save your Brainstorms to protect your important cards from their discard.

It seems I tend become dependant on my top deck, sure, that I can adjust with can trips, but still... top decking mode with no Storm counters? Since you all agree, I'll admit I have the wrong perception, but I don't see clearly how this help, especially if he's backing up Phyrexian Revoker to name my artifacts in play. And then, what do I Tutor for, exactly? Ad Nauseam, since I have no Storm counters?

Thanks again!

[Lemnear]

I tried to adapt the side for my meta and went 3 Thoughtseize because I knew a Manaless Dredge would be present, and tried to follow advices I got in this thread telling me how discard was good vs them. Since it's Manaless, they need to have 7 cards in hand before doing anything, as they need their own discard phase to start. That was my reasonning. If I had to to it all again, I would probably go 1 Thoughtseize and 2 CoV. Or keep the Xandith just to feel a bit more complete, even tho they're most likely useless. Or could they be good vs Blue Manaless?

The devil is hidden in details. The best Thoughtseize does for you is trading a card and two life for an extra turn, which isn't doing enough considering all you likely gain from this action is another drawstep and the option to drop a land. Given that you already run plenty of discard, I don't see any additional gain here with a look at sb space used. If you expect manaless being present, why do you not run Planar Voids? It's basically an I-win-button for a single black mana. The general question here is if you wouldn't gain more from pondering into gas rather than basically "cycling" a plethora of discard spells.

Regarding the Dredge match

I thought Ponder was a cut for fast match, and Chrome Mox for slow one. I wanted to kill them as soon as possible, that was my goal. I just knew Thoughtseize would give me some extra turn vs Manaless. Was it all wrong?

the idea is right about Moxen and Ponder. The flaw is that thoughtseize basically does nothing but cycling for a black mana and two life which is painful for ad nauseam.

Fine, I should have mulligan. There's still a fog I would like to clear out tho. You both agree that I needed to win ASAP. From what I understood, the quickest way to win a game with TES is to go for Empty the Warren. Is that just wrong? It seems like, implicitly, you're both saying Ad Nauseam would have been a better choice. I might have been wrong, but I didn't want to play control keeping this hand (well, maybe the first turn, considering it was vs Manaless), I wanted to win ASAP like you guys mention it. I thought keeping a hand with LED and two tutors would secure me at least an Empty the Warren, and in my case, Ad Nauseam seemed to be the dead card. You guys are clearly telling me I have the wrong conception on ''winning fast'': it's a tough question, but how the hell should I view it? What is ''winning fast'' !?

Please differ between "combo asap" and "win asap". Ad Nauseam wins on the spot while EtW needs you to pass the turn TWICE after being cast in most cases. In matchups which can race the Goblins, I rather ship a single turn to cast AN instead of combo out immediately and have to pray for not dying during the next two turns goblins need to win. There are also situations in which you can't afford to wait even that single turn for being able to cast AN because Thalia/Canonist/Counterbalance/etc. would lock you out otherwise and you have to grab EtW. You have to figure out which of the two scenarios applies in each situation.

In this particular case, Manaless is totally unable to kill you on the spot but needs 2-3 turns for that, but is capable to build enough Zombies to block your Goblins, especially as they were so few. The logic conclusion here is to not bank on a 3-turn-clock of 8 Goblins but works towards killing with AN in the same timewindow without having to care for your opponents potential blockers.

The reason Adam and I pick on that starting grip is that you can't go for goblins before turn 3 in any case, nor does the hand layout guarantee a decent number of goblins at all. These two factors eradicate EtW as an option with this hand and as a logic consequence render LED, IT and Wish three useless cards (thus my talk about virtual mulligan to 4)

Why would you drop the LED? Isn't it a missed Storm counter?

You aim for Ad Nauseam anyways. no need to bother about the storm count here

I thought about it, but Ad Nauseam seemed like the dead card in my hand, so no, I did nothing I could to cast it as I thought it was the wrong play to do. Just to confirm, again, you're telling me Ad Nauseam IS the fastest way to win, and not Goblins?

...and it was a dead card in addition to LED, IT and Wish, ergo we labeled the hand a mulligan. AN was suddenly the best option you have as you drew the third land. If you copied it with IT and drew ANY acceleration the following turn you would have been able to cast AN with a LED still ununsed in play.

again: AN is the fastest way to win and EtW is the fastest way to combo. EtW was not an option because a) you had no chance to cast it early enough and b) you could not generate enough stormcount to race zombies

Regarding Black matches

Fine. But then, he top decks a sweeper. All the time. Is it just pure badluck and should I accept that this is unwinnable, or is there some way to get back up that I don't know of? I mean, I usually have no hands by that point, 10 goblins in play that are now gone. What should I focus to win the game after? Cantrips for Ad Nauseam? Tendrils? Grapeshot? What becomes my backup plan?

There is barely any viable comeback plan except PIF. You cast a quick AN before discard mauls you; you drop and develop your mana on the field and use library manipulation to topdeck into the win; you go for quick goblins and yolo/Therapy against potential sweepers ... pick one of the three.

It seems I tend become dependant on my top deck, sure, that I can adjust with can trips, but still... top decking mode with no Storm counters? Since you all agree, I'll admit I have the wrong perception, but I don't see clearly how this help, especially if he's backing up Phyrexian Revoker to name my artifacts in play. And then, what do I Tutor for, exactly? Ad Nauseam, since I have no Storm counters?

Thanks again!

If you gather your artifact and land mana in play and your rituals in your yard/hand, you just need to draw into a Wish/IT/AN to win which you can setup with your 12 cantrips.

[LDX]

I can't thank you enough. I'll come back next week with better results, and a better report.

That being said, I suspect three other possible matchups I should face next, and have (short) questions related to them.

1) Death and Taxes. I want to EtW asap, because I need to combo before Thalia. Right? It worked in my last match, G1, and G3. G2, on the draw, was lost mostly due to Chalice of the Void, as he plays 3 copies of it. Do we bring Abrupt Decay on the draw? If the match is still lost and we go on the play next game, do we remove them? That would be the logic I see. My sideboard was -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, for +2 CoV, +1 Pyroclasm. Had Void Snare & Massacre in the side, left Grapeshot in the side too.

2) Oops! All spells. Win ASAP, or try to disrupt the hand first? No Goblins since we're looking for a WIN and not a COMBO, correct? (with or without exception like Cabal Therapies to be flashbacked?)

3) Affinity. I guess we bring the Decays, CoV and Pyroclasm in my case. Grapheshot too? And if so, do we remove the Duress or the Ponder first?

Thanks again!

[Lemnear]

I can't thank you enough. I'll come back next week with better results, and a better report.

That being said, I suspect three other possible matchups I should face next, and have (short) questions related to them.

1) Death and Taxes. I want to EtW asap, because I need to combo before Thalia. Right? It worked in my last match, G1, and G3. G2, on the draw, was lost mostly due to Chalice of the Void, as he plays 3 copies of it. Do we bring Abrupt Decay on the draw? If the match is still lost and we go on the play next game, do we remove them? That would be the logic I see. My sideboard was -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, for +2 CoV, +1 Pyroclasm. Had Void Snare & Massacre in the side, left Grapeshot in the side too.

2) Oops! All spells. Win ASAP, or try to disrupt the hand first? No Goblins since we're looking for a WIN and not a COMBO, correct? (with or without exception like Cabal Therapies to be flashbacked?)

3) Affinity. I guess we bring the Decays, CoV and Pyroclasm in my case. Grapheshot too? And if so, do we remove the Duress or the Ponder first?

Thanks again!

1) You're bot boarding decays against D&T. CoV, Clasm and VS are fine to board
2) The deck usually loses to discard. You can stall them endlessly and win. Swapping EtW for a SB discard is fine
3) Are they running Chalice? Haven't played against this deck for years. I'd board nothing unless they ran Chalice

[kkkant]

1) You're bot boarding decays against D&T. CoV, Clasm and VS are fine to board
2) The deck usually loses to discard. You can stall them endlessly and win. Swapping EtW for a SB discard is fine
3) Are they running Chalice? Haven't played against this deck for years. I'd board nothing unless they ran Chalice

There isnt "a list" for affinity since it isnt really a thing lately. But yeah, they are running Chalice (usually MD) and Canonist SB. I think just decay may be the way to go since we can have access to pyroclasm with wish if we absolutely need to, and overboarding isnt needed aggainst a matchup that should be good, right?

[LDX]

New situation, same decks, in a practice environment.

TES vs Manaless Dredge. Game 2, won the first. I'm on the play. Sideboard was -1 EtW, +ToA. Is it really the cause of all my troubles?

Hand is the following:

Volcanic Island
Polluted Delta
Gitaxian Probe
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony
Chrome Mox

1) Do you keep that? I did, hoping to draw an Infernal Tutor and go on a Ad Nauseam to Past In Flames route.

Turn 1: Considering I can't go this turn, but not fearing a Cabal Therapy yet (no creatures in play, she plays Manaless), I put down the Volanic Island and pay the blue for Gitaxian probe. So I see her hand:

Narcomoeba
Narcomoeba
Mindbreak Trap
Force of Will
Stinkweed Imp
Dread Return
Nether Shadow

Rather annoyed, I draw my card: Lion's Eye Diamond. Pass the turn. She draws and puts Stinkweed Imp in her graveyard.

Turn 2: Draw Burning Wish.

2) What do you do at that point!? I have no discard in the sideboard for her counterspells. On the spot, my first thought is to bait a Force of Will, or grab Past in Flames right away if she doesn't respond. I play my Polluted Delta, fetch for an Underground Sea, and tap Volcanic Island + Underground Sea to cast Burning Wish. It gets countered, she sacrifices a Narco to her Force of Will, and my Past in Flames is still in my sideboard. I feel like I need that Infernal Tutor, but that with it, my win is assured. I pass the turn.

She gets her first cards in her grave on her turn, Dredging for 5, but no creatures are in play yet. She gets a Bridge tho, and a Dredger, and a FoW. So I know only one is in her library.

Turn 3: I draw Brainstorm. I pass. On her turn, she gets more cards.

Turn 4: I draw Ponder. I tap my Volcanic to play Ponder, and I see: Lotus Petal, Rite of Flames, Polluted Delta.

3) Do you shuffle this, or take the Delta and Brainstorm? I took the Delta, but now I feel like it was the bad choice, I could have drawn an Infernal, and play Dark Ritual, Imprint the Brainstorm on the Chrome Mox, and then go for Ad Nauseam. But hey, I drew Delta, so I pass.

On her turn, she attacks with a Nether Shadow and an Ichorid, so 4 total. I drop at 15 due to my fetch. She managed to get a Cabal Therapy in her graveyard and sacrifice her Shadow to it: in response, I Brainstorm. I draw Lotus Petal, Rite of Flames, Cabal Therapy.

4) Shuffling with Delta was mandatory before casting the Brainstorm, right? As I could still win next turn, I would have seen 3 new cards, instead of one. At that time, after that mistake, I realized she was starting with her combos/attacks, but that I still had to get rid of the FoW and the Mindbreak Trap.

5) Would you scoop? I felt like there was no way out of this. I kept playing the game (and noted what I did), but there was so many mistakes they're not even worth mentioning. I was crushed

6) While keeping my LEDs in hand, was I losing myself a turn, in case of an Infernal draw, due to Mindbreak Trap? My plan was to Infernal to Ad Nauseam ASAP. I had to bypass/bait/discard 2 FoW + 1 MBT to that. 2 LED + Infernal + Ad Nauseam is 4 spells, she would have been able to counter. Infernal + Ad Nauseam using already in place LEDs isn't as bad.

That's about it for today. I managed to win against the discard black decks today, but only in pratice. Our next playnight is Thursday, I'll keep you updated.

[sawatarix]

There were too many mistakes in this games, don't know where to start here :D

[owerbart]

I know in some ANT variations you do it, but in TES, do you ever sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond? Also, why do you guys consider Mana Confluence to be superior to City of Brass? Because Port?

[ThomasDowd]

I know in some ANT variations you do it, but in TES, do you ever sideboard out a Lion's Eye Diamond? Also, why do you guys consider Mana Confluence to be superior to City of Brass? Because Port?

I board petals out in ANT before I touch LED. and in TES Chrome mox is the first to go. boarding out LED seems..... loose. What is the situation in ANT where you are boarding out LED?

[Lemnear]

Seeing "-EtW +ToA" again and the idea to board out LED, gives me the idea to simply not longer responding to this thread ... at least not before having my third coffee and punched a kitten because of the caused frustration