I just tested the other day in a local torunament, I was 4-0 until I faced Eldrazi, and the scenario was in 1 match up:Originally Posted by Lemnear
I was wastelanded my U.Sea, finally I had 3 lands (bayou, sea and volcanic) and enough time to use B.W. to Pulverize and win through Natural Tendrils, my mistake was to not to search for badlands, I finally searched for V.Snare, but I needed one extra mana to cast it through Thorn. Otherwise I would have won.
I uniquely saw that scenario in 1 match up vs Eldrazi (so 1 of 2 the first time I use pulverize) seems like a good statistic... what I will not do is to play 2 hurkils.
I saw Caleb playing 2 and then 3 CoS, and the last tournament he got 3rd position thorough a field nfested by miracles, which inspired me.
I dont think we could use the same approach as ANT to face miracles - which means 1) senseis 2) more TEndrils and more PiF 3) C.Rit --> grinding mode --> instead just play Grinding station.
What I liked from CoS is that senseins can not be activated in our turn and that is not killed via swords/teernminus and fluster doenst counter it
Sorry I referred to face any in That local torunament
I've always said that my 1st games vs miracles are even favourable... (i almost always won those 1st games, 2nd and 3rd games are just a hell, at least for me...) now i recognize - because of having 13 lands and 1 less discard in main is worse than before. with 7 disacrd 12 rainbow manabase.
The goal i want to achieve is to consistently get to play CoS. now with 14 lands (1 coming from side) this goal is supposed to be achieved.
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
if you want to adapt ANT tech of more 3cc/4cc spells or SDT, you need to go all the way and up your landcount, dismiss Ad Nauseam for these games, play more rituals and, if one thinks this through to the end, simply play ANT. Its not that Chrome Mox and low-powered Rituals are the way to go for long, grindy games.
Why do we have to go throught the same type of discussion for years? Look at all 75 cards and not just 2-4 in a vacuum, please. 3cc green sideboard cards or a grindy matchplan while playing Moxen are not quite TES' traits
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
I do not see what we disagree on here, I just was saying exactly this but in different words. I've been always a defensor of TES 4 B.W. 4 RoF and 3 C.M. godamn I was even still playing 4 gemstones... Im not going to add sesneis or C.Rit or likes.. just 2 CoS...
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
CoS work poorly with GEmstone, Mox, low landcount and Ad Nauseam ... said nothing about wish
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
It's not that playing the extra land and the CoS isn't going to win you some games, it will. Every now and then your opponent will stick a top or something and you'll follow it up with CoS and feel really good about yourself. But you'll win more games by either focusing on the deck as TES or, as mentioned earlier, just converting it to ANT because more often than not you're going to be bummed out every time Ad Nauseum hits it, or it's stuck in your hand because you can't cast it without losing a petal, or you try to run it out early and it gets countered when you could have just drawn a Duress or something to take out the counter and proceed anyway. Or you can't go off T1 because you need another black card, any black card, to be imprinted on Chrome Mox so you can fire off that Duress first. Or you draw it late and it just gets countered from a Clique getting jammed on top. The only time CoS is gonna feel "good" is when your opponent goes Top/CB and they don't have the Force. And the only time you're even gonna bring in CoS is against Miracles, so it's eating up at least two sideboard slots to aim at one specific deck we can already beat anyway. Did I mention it's worthless in multiples? I mean, what are you gonna do, just slot 1 and hope you can draw it and cast it at just the right time? I'm almost ALWAYS happy to see a Duress or Thoughtseize or Abrupt Decay against Miracles, I cannot say I'd always be happy to have a CoS in my hand.
3 mana is a lot for TES's manabase. And increasing that manabase to support playing a 3cmc card on T3 slows the deck down. If CoS is to be valuable at all, it needs to come down T3, because if a Miracles player gets to untap after sticking top/CB, he's got a pretty good shot of countering the CoS since he no longer needs Force to do so. So now you need to gear the deck to being grindier, and by the time you've got the deck tuned to be grindier.....well, now you're playing ANT.
Not that there's anything wrong with that approach, ANT does what it does well and has its own perks. But trying to make TES play like ANT or vice versa is just diluting the deck. TES is geared to have a better Ad Nauseum engine, and anything more than two mana has to be quite good. Really, really good to make it into the MD. So good I don't think there's even really been a card at or above three mana getting maindecked aside from EtW since.....Priest of Gix?, and that only makes it because ETW wins games. CoS doesn't come close to winning the game, and you're either going to be burning one shot resources like Petal to cast it, or waiting until you can stick it on T4 to go off.....at which point you might as well be playing ANT. Against miracles, I'd rather be drawing a boarded in Thoughtseize I can fire off of one land and continuing on my regularly scheduled Storming on T1, 2 or 3. The longer Miracles goes, the better off they are.
Aside from being 3 mana, CoS is a card you'd almost never want as an "extra" to feed to chrome Mox in your opener either. So it's not good if you have a fast hand, and it's not good if you have a slow one either, especially when CB hits T2 and you try to roll it out T3 and it gets Forced because you gave your Miracles player extra time to find one.
It's not good to try to out-control miracles, that's a losing proposition. Disrupting them and being able to handle their primary threat of top/CB with answers that always work (Abrupt Decay) are better options than giving them an opener of 7, and at least three turns to find FoW in addition to whatever else they're packing. By the time you bring this in, they probably know you're playing Storm or at least combo and be looking hard for FoW anyway.
Having said all of that, your idea of Pulverize is interesting. It seems like a risky card though, in some matchups where it might be useful, opponents may be running wasteland and just casting Pulverize might hurt as bad as leaving a Thorn on the table. I'm still suggesting Shattering Spree might be a better option, as I do feel like I need something Wishable that can handle Chalice @ 1 and any other sphere/thorn effects that I can grab from the wishboard. It's nice to have Decays and things in the MB when you side them in, but you still have to find them or mull to them, and more decks are mainboarding chalice. Pulverize might excel at dealing with multiple spheres, but at the cost of permanent mana, and I'd rather crack a Lotus Petal or something I cast proactively to pay for another kick on Spree than blow up my lands forever for it. What do you guys think of this? I wanted to be able to handle Teeg, Chalice/Spheres, and D&T. I feel like changing Recalls to Thoughtseizes will allow me to play 4x Decay, 1-2x Thoughtseize against Miracles players.
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Void Snare
1x Grapeshot
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
1x Massacre
1x Pyroclasm
1x Dark Petition
1x Shattering Spree
MD Bayou in place of a Mire. Consider 2x Thoughtseize instead of HRecall based on Bryant saying they've been underwhelming. I honestly haven't gotten around to trying HRecall myself as I haven't been playing as much as I'd like and as such haven't had the motivation to go pick them up. I think I still have Xantid slotted there.
Atm I'd rather siding Ancient Grudge than H.Recall to get shit binned instead of bounced, but I don't think any existing option is good enough to significantly improve that matchup
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Agree... that's why I said that I changed from 12 lands -4 gemstone to 13 lands - 8 fetches 2 sea 2 v.island 1 badalnds plus extra bayou from side. = total 14 lands, i hope this works... as soon as i face miracles I'll expose the results...
As said, I hate not playing 7th discard, i was absolutly more comfortable with 12 lands 7 discard but - mainly vs SneakAttack which is a deck to have in mind by here:
- i wanted to give a try to Pulverize - then needed fetches for at least 3 mountains - 2 v.island and 1badlands
- i wanted to give a try to CoS
The other day experimenting the list with fetches, i really didn't notice any difference, however i faced blue in the form of agro/delver or BUG control. didnt face any miracles as said, but was solid for a 4-0
Well let's see how this works.
EDIT: Iç elbalobare to answer you Ebonclaw, seems interesting what you say...need finish programming work! time to go home..
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Grudge is worse than Recall, I feel like the point is to just be faster/better against those decks than just trying to answer their bullshit. Focus those slots elsewhere.
That's odd because I've gotten more use out of the 2nd Tendrils of Agony than I have the 2nd Past in Flames, but considering the number of Miracles players who SBed in Rest Peace against you maybe you were right and the whole mini Grinding Station idea should be cut - if we have to forego cards like Vapour Snag in a world of Leyline of Sanctity, then I don't think the Tendril/PIF redundancy vs Miracles is worth the slots.
Random thoughts,
Regarding Massacre, and as an aside Thoughtseize, have you seen enough Death&Taxes to warrant it? With Grape Shot in the SB Massacre seems redundant, and Thought Knot Seer isn't enough of a reason vs Eldrazi to take 2 damage vs Islands. Even Vendillion Clique can be dealt with via s 3 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy MD and a 1 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy SB, so I can't justify it anymore fwiw.
As far as the TES vs ANT argument is concerned, I find the more I iterate towards ANT the more success I have, but I don't believe that means we should be playing ANT. To me, the difference between the two archetypes is that TES sacrifices quality of rituals in favour of number of threats and that is it. I've been playing 14 lands (8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp) and 2 Chrome Mox for awhile, and ANT pilots have been playing 14 lands and a Chrome Mox recently so the manabases just keep converging.
Concerning 6 discard, I also had some problems with Cabal Therapy when I cut the 7th discard, so I suggest you play an even split in the MD/SB to make you less reliant on Cabal Therapy and guessing games - it inadvertantly improves the Eldrazi match up fwiw. City of Solitude seems really bad, and I don't understand why you would ever play that over Autumn's Veil?
Ancient Grudge seems like a pretty solid card, gonna try that out, but it probably over burdens Bayou.
If you're trying to beat Eldrazi with speed, then maybe the answer is staying with 3 Chrome Mox and revisiting the Diminishing Returns in the SB?
Odd question, but considering Vapour Snag is there for Leyline of Sanctity more than anything, could we replace it with Reverent Silence in order to get more value out of a MD Bayou or do you think it's too important to be able to SB the card in with the 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Hurkyl's Recall and the Grape Shot vs Bear decks?
I'm only dedicating one slot. I'm simply just playing one additional PIF to gain an entire sideboard strategy, it seems worth it to me. FWIW, I had a round I almost lost at the Grand Prix because I didn't have Void Snare in the sideboard, that doesn't mean I want to add it back in – but it's worth noting.
Death & Taxes as well as Maverick's numbers have been climbing. I also used Massacre against Miracles and Stoneblade.
#4Therapy4lyfe
@Ebonclaw:
The sad thing is that I agree on what you say about miracles...
the unique games I've been able to win vs this archetype are the ones where i dont dilute the deck which is:
- when i start the 1st game
- when i just dont side and start the 3rd game
trying to face miracles when you are on the draw, is just give it a loose even if i side in 4 decays...
people says that multi EtW is ok vs miracles - for me no, I also tryed krosan and - i dont remember the name the Green silence or 2nd A.N. and more discard... but is all about senseis, not balance, just senseis. and a late game which devastate us...
the problem is that there will be a game in which you won't start and that game you just will loose unless you figth fire with fire - like ANT does. but again i dont want to play such plain deck as ANT.
my experience is that i won 70/80 percent games vs miracles 1st games and whatever i do in next games i loose. i just try desperately things like CoS - saw Caleb playing 2 and next 3 it and give it a try, i just dont want to assume like F.Fortune says, 'well thats miracles youll need to get the most of your few chances of winning'...
wellmaybe that only me, but hell i've even faced miracles which played me the hole 4 balances... but i found scenarios with no balance but fluster, b.s., fow, snpacaster, venser and fluster on top... how can you win that with TES?, i dont still dont know but maybe CoS is the answer.... I wont give a shit to those silly aproaches as playing 2nd pif or likes... just better play 2nd AN!!
well at least i can say this is the unique match up i am unfavourable..., apart from eldrazi...
lets wait for uncountereable pyro...
just out of curiosity - what dod you do for 2nd and 3rd game vs mircaels?
likely if CoS doesnt work for me, the next thing ill try is just playing 2 senseis and maybe a 2nd tendrils in my side...
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
@Final Fortune:
My local meta contains D&T and with EMA basically reprinting half the deck, Bryant's right, we can expect to see a rise in D&T at a wider level, so Massacre is making sense again.
Bryant's right, instead of trying to fight the bullshit, we need to continue focusing on going off on schedule and outrunning it. The games against Miracles that I win are the ones where I have early disruption and make them find the Terminus. I'd rather put the goblins on the board and get them swept than dying under a CB lock. Some miracles players are unable to differentiate between ANT and TES and side out their Terminus' entirely as well. Depending on how G1 went, I'll think about their board and my path to victory. If I won game 1 off of goblins, they probably kept the terminus' in and if I don't pursue that route, then they're playing with 4 dead cards. Sometimes, though, you have to just make them have it. If they do, they do, but if they don't, and can't find it in two turns, well, they're dead. You can sit there with a path to 10 goblins that you're too afraid to walk into a Terminus so you're looking for a Tendrils route while the miracles player is picking up Flusterstorms and Forces off of Brainstorms. The more time you give miracles without pressure, the more digging they're going to do for all their silver bullet cards. And they can dig better than you. But if you can make them operate off of their initial 7 and limit the time they have to dig for whatever they want and instead forcing them to dig for a specific card, that's a much better position to be in. Sometimes you're just gonna lose to Terminus, but sometimes you're gonna lose instead to whatever they're drawing off of brainstorm/fetch/top cycles. Make them blow their brainstorms and top cycles searching for one specific card instead of letting them decide if they want to draw the Flusterstorm or the Force of Will on their next turn. Make them shuffle that shit away because they have to find Terminus or die.
Cabal Therapy is too powerful and only becomes more powerful the more you know what you're up against so you can make a good blind call if you have to. The synergy with EtW is too great to ignore, and a T1 GitProbe/Therapy followed by a T2 ETW/flashback therapy is quickly and heavily restricting their ability to find Terminus if you make your hits count with it.
It doesn't matter if they have a deck full of Snapcasters and Flusterstorms and Cliques and Forces, they only get to draw 7 to start, same as you, they're prone to drawing more land than they really need until they're able to get it filtered. Snapcaster is a dead card you combo off before they have the mana for Snapcaster+ a spell. SDT doesn't stop you from comboing if CB isn't on the table yet. Force requires a blue card to operate or it's dead. Take the one or two actual problems out of their hand, and go off before they can sculpt their hand, ship back the excess land, deploy the top and filter with it. And then make them produce the Terminus or die trying. Their deck may have more permission than you have countermagic, but you're far better equipped to actually DO stuff in the early game as their permission either needs mana, or other cards to function. The longer they live, the easier it is for them to play multiple pieces of permission, and Snapcaster is no longer a dead card. FoW needs another blue card. Snapcaster costs at LEAST 3 to become relevant. Do they want to cast the Top that does nothing on T1, or keep the land open for Flusterstorm and have to delay playing CB till T3?
Opening hand disruption is prioritized against Miracles, because they're probably not going to keep any hand that leaves them defenseless on T1. Being a combo deck puts just as much pressure on them to find cheap/free permission as there is on you to find disruption. Almost every single card in their deck is irrelevant if you can just get clear enough to go off, except for four terminus IF they kept them in the deck to begin with. Then you can watch them squirm and blow spells as fast as they can while they're shipping their counterbalances and flusterstorms away trying to find an answer to the problem you've presented. It's easier to be the one making the problems than it is to be the one finding solutions. Stop trying to be ANT if you've got Chrome Moxes in your deck. Your plan is to win the first game by surprise factor, and force the opponent to react to you in TWO more games in a row when your deck's best assets are speed and disruption, the last of which you get to even go first if they get that far.
Even getting hit by the Terminus is not the end of the world, it's better than getting beaten down by a snapcaster for more turns than your deck should ever see.
Let's say you're able to probe-therapy-combo-therapy. Your opponent just lost their two most valuable cards to the double therapy. They have to find a terminus with what's left, and then cast it. Even if they're able to do this, they're not going to be left in a great position afterwards, and they probably had to blow a brainstorm to find the Terminus. Your combo turn has taken a total of at least 3 cards from them when you include the Terminus, two of which you got to pick, plus anything they had to burn looking for said Terminus. Even after making you scoop up all those goblins, they're still not "well off".
Lastly, if you're staring at a deck stuffed with Venser, Clique, Snapcaster, FoW, FlusterStorm, guess what? More than half those cards are dead till turn 3 at best. You better find a way around the other two by the time the third land hits the table and the rest of the hand goes live. If that means making 8 goblins on T1 after taking out FoW, with your Therapy, you're better off than letting that hand become fully hot and never getting to go to begin with.
#4Therapy4Lyfe
Did you give Simian Spirit Guide a try? I have not but on paper they could help being faster when it matters. When flipped they hurt you more (+1) but they add mana so after nauseam the balance is not bad after all.
... what a beautifull feeling... exactly the same happen to me... still i am not satisfied with the results...
thats why long time ago on the play i just sided in more discard for etw and ponder - leaving in the c.m.
on the draw maybe it is better to leave still moxen and take out all ponder for decay...
the only thing i disagree on is that miracles players do know differentiate ant from tes and they leave in terminus and staticaster vs us
how do you side when you start and when you are on the draw?
EDIT:
#4Therapy4Lyfe
#AssSaverGrapshotForLife
Last edited by Pelikanudo; 06-26-2016 at 07:45 AM.
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Ebonclaw's post (on mobile) is TLDR. But I am not advocating jamming goblins against miracles - only do it if you have to. Super risky. I'm all about siding into a PIF and a ToA right now.
I don't believe the Miracles match up is as desperate as people think it is, at least not as desperate as "Goblins and Prayers," because you aren't going to be on the play every game nor are you always going to have the disruption, mana and threats to "Goblins and Prayers" on turn 2. Even if that strategy mathematically has merit game 1, the problem is game 2 your opponent has the information, sideboard and mulligan to bitch slap your whole strategy. Chrome Mox isn't where the speed of the deck comes from, whether or not you play 3 or 2 is a marginal difference on your fundamental turn and I wouldn't play the card at all if it weren't for Ad Nauseam.
Regarding Cabal Therapy, just because you're SBing Cabal Therapy doesn't mean you're playing less than 4 copies of the card, as Burning Wish for Cabal Therapy is a thing and you're SBing in Cabal Therapy for 2/3rds of your games. There's a line between the power of Cabal Therapy vs Islands and the precision of Duress vs Eldrazi that you have to draw, and personally I think the 3/3 and 1/1 split in order to cover Vendilion Clique and save life is reasonable. Because even if Massacre is warranted, I'm not sure Thoughtseize is any better than Abrupt Decay/Hurkyl's Recall/Void Snare/Grape Shot and reacting to the board at this point (mainly because the D&T match up usually plays out with you being on the draw for game 2) Maybe we should just be playing 2 Duress in the SB then, "shrug." Regardless, I don't think the composition of the discard, MD Bayou, 3rd Chrome Mox or Volcanic vs Badlands arguments are that relative to your win rate, it's more about how you approach the archetype and its matchups at this point. And just running head long into the opponent isn't really going to make you a better Storm Player or let you leverage your skill advantage - altho' if you aren't experienced with the deck it may be the best way to stop your opponent from leveraging theirs. There's a lot to take away from ANT and ANT players, as they actually have to play out their games as opposed to blowing their opponent's out of the water or the other way around.
Anyway, I think the 2 Tendril/PIF plan for us is at the very least interesting and the Grape Shot/Massacre/Void Snare slots are pretty debateable, it comes down to alternative strategies vs tool boxes and I've sat on both sides of the fence.
I might give something like this a whirl if you just want to try to rely on the deck's natural strengths instead of reacting to your opponent,
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Void Snare
2 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay
I've had some pretty extreme ideas of just SBing out Ad Nauseam, Chrome Mox and Burning Wish and playing ANT - Cabal Ritual + Rite of Flame post-board banking on the idea that people wont bother to SB in graveyard hate so Rite of Flame isn't that much worse off. Once they see what you've done, you just board out of it and hopefully bait them into SBing in their graveyard hate for game 3. That would probably work way better if you were running those 2 Cabal Ritual TES lists tho', eh can't have it all.
*eyesroll* we had that topic in the past. If you want to primary beat SDT, board Pithing Needles. Period.
Needle @ fetchlands after a G.Probe or at Wastelands is also nice, but you want to board more 3cc/5cc cards to turn your Ad Nauseam.dec into crap instead. *slowclap*
-2 Mox
-4 Ponder
+1 ToA
+1 PIF
+4 Decay
I'd keep EtW in just to force them to have answers also because its business dodging CB
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
@Bryant
Maybe my post was a little overzealous, I'm not advocating just jamming goblins, but I am saying that sometimes you have to and it's better to recognize when you've got a better chance doing that then trying to grind the long game, and if you're going to, then it's necessary to recognize that as early as possible. One of the more difficult decisions is looking at a turn 1 10-goblins with a Duress lead vs shipping it and hoping that you draw a grindier 6. On game 2, if you opened with Mire, Wish, LED, Petal, RoF, RoF, Duress, and draw another land, for example, would you go for this plan on the draw? On the play? Would you stop after the Duress if they Brainstormed? Do you just wait and see what you else you can draw into? How about on the play?
One thing I need to work on for sure is playing the grind better, I've gotten much, much better at sideboarding most matchups thanks to your website and lurking here where I can do it intuitively without having to follow a guide anymore, with the exception of still being unsure when to bring in/out PiF, ETW, and Tendrils. I'd like to see an article sometime examining this a bit more in depth. It's easy enough to know that Abrupt Decay needs to come in to blow up CBs, or Recall shows up to deal with Thorns, but it's not easy to see where one would bring in Tendrils, or why there's a discussion about running 2x PiF and where/when they might belong.
If you have Duress into 10 goblins of course you keep, you don't ship that. Don't try to force strategies at all costs, you have to evaluate what you're given too. I think the plan on the play is to jam Goblins, on the draw if you hit another IMS (or land) is to Ad Nauseam.
As for the recent strategy, it's mentioned in articles. Read those. I'm in the process of coding the new site and am not going to update the content of sideboarding guides/card choices until it's done.
I am 110% sure the latest Infernal Tutoring Article adresses just that.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote