[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

Wait a second Lemnear. Are you saying you always combo off G1 T1 against Elves and never see a Teeg T2? Or are you saying if you see Teeg T2 you just fold since you didn't go off T1?

Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down ... and Grapeshot!

I often edit quotes to make my points more relevant.

[d0nkey]

Then I recommend to add at least Hull Breach, Revoke Existance, Reverent Silence, TimeSpiral, Doomsday, Reforge The Souls, Bribery, TeleminPerformance and SlaughterGames too and remove the crappy Abrupt Decays eating up the toolbox space

This post shows exactly why nobody wants to engage in a conversation with you.

[Jesture]

This post shows exactly why nobody wants to engage in a conversation with you.

Might just be me, but I'd rather read what Lemnear has to say about T.E.S. than what others have to say about Lemnear.

I would also agree that the idea of giving up fringe matchups to have a better sideboard vs the more popular decks is a better idea. I just don't care.

You give up a lot of deckbuilding credibility when you acknowledge that someone else's plan is better, but you simply don't care.

I also play Diminishing Returns because sometimes I just fuck up and need to spin to win.

Or when you're building your sideboard to account for your suboptimal plays.

[d0nkey]

Might just be me, but I'd rather read what Lemnear has to say about T.E.S. than what others have to say about Lemnear.



You give up a lot of deckbuilding credibility when you acknowledge that someone else's plan is better, but you simply don't care.



Or when you're building your sideboard to account for your suboptimal plays.

I never claimed to have deckbuilding credibility. The point is that yes, removing tools from the toolbox to strengthen more common matchups is probably a better plan. It doesn't mean that having the extra tools is a stupid idea, like some people seem to think. It also isn't necessary to mock people who choose to build their sideboards to match their playstyle. Bryant, Lem, et all are obviously superior pilots since I play infrequently. So maximizing their common matchups makes sense. Where as I don't keep up on the meta of legacy enough to care about maximizing those matchups and I'd prefer to have more tools to deal with things I didn't see coming.

But thanks for your 2 cents. I'll add that to my piggy bank.

I mean, it's not as though I'm Pelikanudo and telling everyone to follow my suboptimal path. At least I recognize it. I just don't see the small percentage increase at the cost of reducing my toolbox to be worth it for me. Your mileage may vary.

[Lemnear]

I never claimed to have deckbuilding credibility. The point is that yes, removing tools from the toolbox to strengthen more common matchups is probably a better plan. It doesn't mean that having the extra tools is a stupid idea, like some people seem to think.

The space for these extra tools is just taking away potential space for neccessary answer to Eldrazi and such, thats all I wanted to hint at in the context of large tournaments. I just pointed out, that having answers to Enchantress and their potential sideboard (for example), might isn't the thing to take care of when deciding on a 75 to bring to a SCG Open. In a local environment, people can sure go crazy on SB tech. Just please don't make arguments for cards based on essentially non-existent decks/SB cards, guys

It also isn't necessary to mock people who choose to build their sideboards to match their playstyle.

Maybe its the cynic in me, playing the game for close to two decades, but I am not convinced "playstyle" is actually a thing in this game. "Mindset" is more fitting if you talk about your desire to be prepared for everything

Bryant, Lem, et all are obviously superior pilots since I play infrequently. So maximizing their common matchups makes sense. Where as I don't keep up on the meta of legacy enough to care about maximizing those matchups and I'd prefer to have more tools to deal with things I didn't see coming.

Don, I think you can work around a lot of random shit you might encounter even without dedicated solutions. Mind that we factor a lot of random stuff you can encounter, by promoting generic answers instead of specialized one for the SB slots to cover more matchups. You can see it in things like removing stuff like Pyroclasm or CoV for the 4th Decay which is less efficient, but with broader application as its useable against Chalice/Counterbalance/Hatebear instead of the either/or of other cards.

I mean, it's not as though I'm Pelikanudo and telling everyone to follow my suboptimal path. At least I recognize it.

I lol'd

[d0nkey]

Then I recommend to add at least Hull Breach, Revoke Existance, Reverent Silence, TimeSpiral, Doomsday, Reforge The Souls, Bribery, TeleminPerformance and SlaughterGames too and remove the crappy Abrupt Decays eating up the toolbox space

This is the comment I had an issue with. Just because I play a meltdown doesn't mean I'm going to remove my 4x Abrupt Decay to hold these tools when a Void Snare and Meltdown cover most of those cases. It's not like I have a history of offering up dumb suggestions to warrant that.

Hell, I have kept Grapeshot since the beginning too. But when it was suggested to remove it, I never argued with the reasoning for removing it. It made sense, but doesn't mean we all have to follow suit.

Metas are different from area to area. In Seattle, there are several good players that play D&T. When Massacre was moved out of the sideboard, I kept mine in for this reason. It doesn't make me wrong for keeping it in. At the time D&T was being played less and less, but in Seattle, there was a guy who did play it and if you were going to T8 an event, there was a good chance you'd have to go through him so I kept it in.

I never said that a larger toolbox is better. It's how I want to play the deck though and it doesn't make it wrong. Slightly less-optimal perhaps, but not wrong.

[Vandalize]

I know this topic comes and goes with time, but we all have to bring it up at some point, don't we?

In today's meta: post Treasure Cruise and DTT bans, Eldrazi being the aggro threat, Miracles at the top (as usual), Grixis replacing Canadian in the tier list, how good is Orim's Chant/Silence mainboard and sideboard Carpet of Flowers? The manabase has been updating to support the Duress/Therapy approach for a while now, dusting off those Gemstone Mines is a bad idea?

[Lemnear]

This is the comment I had an issue with. Just because I play a meltdown doesn't mean I'm going to remove my 4x Abrupt Decay to hold these tools when a Void Snare and Meltdown cover most of those cases. It's not like I have a history of offering up dumb suggestions to warrant that.

Hell, I have kept Grapeshot since the beginning too. But when it was suggested to remove it, I never argued with the reasoning for removing it. It made sense, but doesn't mean we all have to follow suit.

Metas are different from area to area. In Seattle, there are several good players that play D&T. When Massacre was moved out of the sideboard, I kept mine in for this reason. It doesn't make me wrong for keeping it in. At the time D&T was being played less and less, but in Seattle, there was a guy who did play it and if you were going to T8 an event, there was a good chance you'd have to go through him so I kept it in.

I never said that a larger toolbox is better. It's how I want to play the deck though and it doesn't make it wrong. Slightly less-optimal perhaps, but not wrong.

Depends if you feel perfectly prepared for Miracles, Eldrazi, D&T, etc with these 4 Decays only or want more boardable hate instead of wishable one which fails to answer stuff like Thorn because of cost. The topic extends to creatures as well if we ask if we feel fine about Meddling Mage, Canonist, Thalia, Teeg, if our only solutions are the Decays. You decided it's not and included Grapeshot and/or Massacre and point to the Seattle area with several good D&T players which is totally fine like I said before, because your numbers back up your decision. Please mind, that this is different from the "I may play against an extremely fringe deck and want a wishboard for that" or "my wishboard-tech requires my opponent to make critical mistakes". IF the numbers of these fancy techs have a negative impact on your ability to fight back common decks by cluttering your sideboard, i consider it a problem.

[Lemnear]

I know this topic comes and goes with time, but we all have to bring it up at some point, don't we?

In today's meta: post Treasure Cruise and DTT bans, Eldrazi being the aggro threat, Miracles at the top (as usual), Grixis replacing Canadian in the tier list, how good is Orim's Chant/Silence mainboard and sideboard Carpet of Flowers? The manabase has been updating to support the Duress/Therapy approach for a while now, dusting off those Gemstone Mines is a bad idea?

Unless conditional counters like Spell Snare return to the metagame and the number of Tempo decks & Wasteland drastically drops, i don't see a chance to return to Rainbow lands or O.Chant/Silence. Carpet has no place if you already run 40% mana and your opponents can opperate on two lands like Grixis

[Pelikanudo]

Fuck the hell im not telling anybody to take my path... I am likely the most TES experienced player of course apart from Bryant and emidlin and one thing ive learned is to reach my own conclusions and make them independant of sometimes silly things iv read around here... This is the unique suggestion i can give to some that wants to master TES... hear and read things but have your own conclusion... F.e. im the one playing pulverize 2 v.i. and 1 badlands...

[Lemnear]

Fuck the hell im not telling anybody to take my path... I am likely the most TES experienced player of course apart from Bryant and emidlin and one thing ive learned is to reach my own conclusions and make them independant of sometimes silly things iv read around here... This is the unique suggestion i can give to some that wants to master TES... hear and read things but have your own conclusion... F.e. im the one playing pulverize 2 v.i. and 1 badlands...

[Final Fortune]

From the man who brought you such hits as Rain of Filth, Crystal Vein and City of Traitors comes a hypocritical post of a playable card in TES!

[Lemnear]

From the man who brought you such hits as Rain of Filth, Crystal Vein and City of Traitors comes a hypocritical post of a playable card in TES!

Yeah, the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase, delivered ideas to accelerate the deck during a time no one played Wasteland to be faster than TC/DTT. At least I elaborate my choices. ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Yeah, the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase, delivered ideas to accelerate the deck during a time no one played Wasteland to be faster than TC/DTT. At least I elaborate my choices. ;)

You weren't.
Bahamut brouhgt these ideas which have been the ones i appreciatw most. Sure until dark petirion he was likely the unique playing 3 b.w. joke

[Lemnear]

You weren't.
Bahamut brouhgt these ideas which have been the ones i appreciatw most. Sure until dark petirion he was likely the unique playing 3 b.w. joke

Show me the proof for the claim that he was the first with 4 Therapy in MD, cutting white completely and playing w/o a single goldland.

[Bahamuth]

Show me the proof for the claim that he was the first with 4 Therapy in MD, cutting white completely and playing w/o a single goldland.

We weren't. We did start running Probes (and mainboard EtW? Not sure) way before everyone else though. Here's a list from GP Amsterdam. http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51165

Lots of Stifles and Spell Snares around back then, so we were still on gold lands and Chants. We also made TNT, but that never ran Probe's I believe back then. I'm not so sure anymore. We don't really play much Legacy anymore and haven't for a while.

[Lemnear]

@Peli

Evolution comes slow and the MB EtW or Probes do sure have not grown in my Garden. Probe was in TES established even before i was annoying you all with the 4 Therapies and cut of white as a reaction of the vanishing of Snare and the establishing of multi-angle hate in the format following the original Innistrad powercreep, the omnipresence of tempo strategies, Wasteland and a new generation of hatebears.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, the man who brought you Probe/Therapy/EtW and fetch/Dual manabase, delivered ideas to accelerate the deck during a time no one played Wasteland to be faster than TC/DTT. At least I elaborate my choices. ;)

I'm sorry but that is completely self agrandizing nonsense,

1) You didn't bring ETW to TES's main deck, it had been there before Ad Nauseam replaced the Tendril/IGG/DimRet/ETW package.
2) You didn't bring Gitaxian Probe to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over.
3) You didn't bring Cabal Therapy to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES when I convinced the thread to remove Silence.
4) You didn't bring the Fetch/Dual manabase to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES shortly after I convinced the thread to remove Silence (actually it was one of my main arguments for removing Silence in the first place).

So you're basically taking credit for something that had previously been a standard in the deck, something that every one was playing on day 1 and stuff I advocated for ... wow man ... it's not like I'm claiming the whole move away from Silence and Gemstone Mine towards discard and Dual/Fetch was my unique brain child considering I was just iterating between versions of TES and TnT at the time, but it's pretty ridiculous to see you make those claims for yourself when the post history and PMs clearly show otherwise.

I understand there's a certain "elitism" in this thread, but considering how Simian Spirit Guide, fetchlands, Silence, Mystical Tutor, the # of lands, all discard, fetch/duals and the # of Chrome Mox had all been rejected and then adopted shortly after kind of shows the importance of other people contributing to the thread even if 99% of those contributions turn out to be garbage or go in and out of relevance. Even cards that never had their day in the sun like Autumn's Veil I think were actually the better choice then considering we were playing Bayou at the time, and there's nothing about it that seems really unplayable to me even now.

So dismount from the high horse man, because all I've seen you do is use hyperbole and slip questions in the last week just because people want a universal answer to fringe hate or dedicated hate vs D&T and Eldrazi or another storm engine in a deck we were SBing Bayou in what, just the last couple of months? I mean maybe stuff like Pulverize and cutting Swamp for the 3rd /Red land wont work out, but at least people are trying to address the issue. And frankly I'm a little dumb founded why people are hating on Diminishing Returns when they are playing 3 Chrome Mox and it's probably one of the best storm engines vs Eldrazi or anything else without Islands, I mean we've been down these roads before. Hell, we're all just splitting really fine hairs in deck building at this point and should probably dedicated more time to actually reviewing useful shit like mulligans, match ups or vods.

[Lemnear]

3) You didn't bring Cabal Therapy to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES when I convinced the thread to remove Silence.
4) You didn't bring the Fetch/Dual manabase to TES, it was already being played in ANT and filtered over to TES shortly after I convinced the thread to remove Silence (actually it was one of my main arguments for removing Silence in the first place).

lol. Wishful thinking

It's impossible to deny the unholy triforce of EtW + G.Probe + Cabal Therapy in this deck and what's one of the reasons I maxed the Therapies. The other is that boarding discard for discard in creature-matchups feels quite retarded like my previous running of Pyroclasm alongside Grapeshot. A third reason is, that moving cardtype Independent discard to the MB free'd one more SB for me so I gained additional edges against Miracles, Counter-overloads and combo

Written @ 10-25-2013 11:02 AM

I kept annoying the thread which made Bryant post this:

We get it dude. You love Cabal Therapy.

However, Cabal Therapy while is very good isn't always the card you need. Which is why I'm running a Thoughtseize as well, sometimes you don't have the Gitaxian Probe to just know what they have and you need to cast it turn one. Against Miracles I've seen Cannonist and Counterbalance postboard. Both are awful to see turn two, these are situations where Thoughtseize is just better than Therapy.

Written @ 11-12-2013 01:59 AM

During 11-16-2013 you even said this about 4x Cabal Therapy:

And that's the problem with 4xCabal Therapy, considering ANT already plays 4xCabal Therapy the smart(er) aggro-control players are differentiating their disruption, permission and hate in order to make Cabal Therapy unreliable, Brainstorm aside, I don't think people are going to play 3 Meddling Mage as opposed to 1 Vendillion Clique, 1 Meddling Mage and 1 Ethersworn Cannonist or 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Daze as oppoed to 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Snare etc. considering how abundant and equivalent a lot of cards are at their roll in eternal formats.

Leyline of Sanctity forced us to play Silence over Orim's Chant, I think smarter SBing will force us not to be overly reliant on Cabal Therapy.

...and this during the 11-11-2013

I think it's important not to get polarized on disruption, 4 Silence, 4 Cabal Therapy has an informational disadvantage game one 50% of the time despite being strong there after, where 4 Silence, 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize can keep 1 Cabal Therapy in the MD, 1 Cabal Therapy in the SB and then swap out the 1 Cabal Therapy in the SB for a Thoughtseize if need be and you don't have to worry about being on the wrong side of a coin flip.

I may end up going for 3 Silence, 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize with a SB Cabal Therapy and Xantid Swarms tho'.

TL;DR: you are a clown

[Pelikanudo]

Show me the proof for the claim that he was the first with 4 Therapy in MD, cutting white completely and playing w/o a single goldland.

I took this as a nostalgic memories:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post661997

Thnks to Bahamut and emidlin!

You can read from here till 50 page... I also recommend you boys from here to read its interesting.. There were some good discussions... I remember i was anti g.p.... Or etw main... Come on no one thought on that... The natural inclusion of tjerapy was evident then.

Were you Lem bornt by that era? Joke.

Apart. Today top16 in MKM madrid. Was a shame... 6-2finally.
Some notes:
Well CoS was in deed a very specificcard... Today even didnt faced miracles. So ill fill again with moee discard or xantids
The looses were omnitell in which SoLwas shit. And a likw of control . my mistake in here wasno boarding in decays 42nd game thinking it was other..