As a TES player, I want to root for him so badly.... But considering he's up against one of my team mates who happens to be wielding DnT... Idk lol. Ben has stomped my face in many a times with that 75.Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
DAMN YOU CONFLICTING EMOTIONSSS :P
Nah, but seriously, congrats man, great showing so far!
Apparently he had lost in top 8 and they reported the match incorrectly.
Yeah just saw that, bummer :-/
Yes. Considering Empty the Warrens acts as a trump to the top three decks in the general metagame— Canadian Thresh, Maverick, and UW (yes, including the iterations packing 3+ Terminus maindeck in addition to any Engineered Explosives), in addition to a bevy of other decks, pretty much any non-combo archetype— and is the far-and-away easiest business spell to cast for positive returns, I feel the correct game one configuration runs it. Somewhat (but not entirely) related, I also feel it's probably incorrect to run Tendrils main; this has to do with the fact that having the ability to raw-dog it as a winning line in addition to making Past in Flames and Ill-Gotten Gains loops cheaper just really isn't necessary right now against the field game one.
You really want to know which lines you'll want in each matchup, as you kind of want to write a winning script versus each archetype beforehand and have each game go as close to that script as possible; just see in-game which lines will be possible, and which ones won't be. Cast your cantrips accordingly to which script you wish to follow. Obviously, there will be a metric ton of specific nuances per game that will make it hard to make games akin to an ideal, but like I said, just try to get it as close to the script as possible. To get a better idea of what lines you'll want versus specific matchups, here's the the beta version of my fetchland list:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Island (or fourth Gitaxian Probe)
1 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island (definitely prefer Volc as the de facto dual to Sea in this list since Swamp is a second black source, as opposed to Bryant's, where the second Sea is better; Volc+Swamp, usually in that order, is the best combination of two lands)
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands (or fourth Gitaxian Probe; can be shitty early on, but having a third fetchable black source lategame so that you can go Duress into Therapy into Dark Rit is is pretty valuable. In addition, is a third Mountain for Pulverize so that a single Wasteland won't screw you over)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
SB:
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Pulverize
1 Reverent Silence (or Diminishing Returns; or Ill-Gotten Gains; or even BW target X [Bribery, for example, if you're so inclined], though prob not)
1 Silent Departure (or a cornucopia of other BW-able targets to deal with hatebears)
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread of Night (or Chain of Vapor) —the fact that the deck runs Infernal Tutor is definitely a plus for DoN
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
Versus Canadian Threshold, with a turn one or two Empty the Warrens (note that EtW is easier to cast) approaching (you could actually even say bettering) the same winning percentage a turn one or two Ad Nauseam will, Ad Nauseam becomes redundant; turn three or later, due to their multitude of burn spells, both business spells become weaker, meaning you want the ability to PiF cheaper/raw-dog Tendrils. Therefore, alls I do in that matchup (since Xantid Swarm in for Probes isn't very good because they leave in their burn) is -1 Ad Nauseam for +1 Tendrils.
Versus Maverick, you don't need the ability to Pif cheaper/IGG cheaper/raw-dog Tendrils, and there are many situations where Ad Nauseam will be better than EtW, so I make no changes in business spells (if you're curious, the board plan is -4 Duress, +1 Therapy, +3 Dread of Night)
Versus UW, you'll actually want all three since EtW before they drop down Counterbalance is a huge line, in addition to the obvious boons of the other two business spells. The board plan is -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Island, -1 Infernal Tutor for +3 Xantid Swarm, +1 Tropical Island, +1 Tendrils of Agony. SBing out IT here acts Diminishing Returns, which is why I didn't include DR in the above iteration of my heavily-goldfished build; it acts as a cure for those famed BW-but-no-other-business-spell hands that occur in the middle (turn three or four) of the game after you've landed a Xantid Swarm, as nine mana (which is equivalent to the cheaper basic IGG loop) equals Ad Nauseam against a deck that doesn't really pressure you much in terms of damage.
I don't have a set-in-stone board plan against Force of Will combo decks, but obviously side out Empty for Tendrils; I don't know if you should board out Burning Wish, Probe, or Therapy for the Swarm package, but I'm pretty sure it's the Probe package.
Versus other LED combo decks, just swap EtW for Tendrils. Verdict is still out on whether Swarm (in for Probes probably) is necessary versus other storm variants that play Chant effects; test it or something.
Of course, this post/list/configuration might become moot soon, what with the new set potentially shaking things up, but whatever.
Concerning Abrupt Decay— seems very, very interesting. Its inclusion in this deck will definitely be predicated a lot on whether or not Counterbalance decks will still prominently exist. I really, really hope its printing willn't cause BUG Thoughtseize/Force decks to rise in the metagame, though the archetype probably will. It will also be interesting to see which TES manabase supports it best. The fact that it can't deal with Lodestone Golem/Leyline of Sanctity probably willn't matter at all.
Isn't it weird that some of your childhood friends are now parents/soon to be parents? It's fucking weirding me out right now.
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I figured after all the time I've spent lurking here absorbing info from you guys, I owe you at least some sort of recollection of my run with TES at the Legacy SCG Open in Portland.
First of all, although I've been playing storm variants for quite a while, I only switched to TES recently. A large part of my decision to move on from my typical TNT build was due to my belief that the Pacific Northwest is a particularly combo-heavy metagame, and I wanted to be faster than the competition. Additionally, I was drawn to the versatility and adaptability of the decision trees in the deck that seemed ideal for a naturally diverse format. I guess you could say I was hedging my bets against either metagame, but I'd prefer summarize by saying that my experiences indicated that TES was better against the combo decks, and more flexible against everything else.
As for my matchups, I'll try to do my best to summarize them from memory. After playing 9 rounds + quarterfinals on Saturday night, I was not in a mindset to be taking match notes expecting another top 8 on Sunday.
Round 1: Eureka, Loss
This match is the fuzziest in my memory, but I recall that my hand in both games were not particularly fast, but packed a reasonable amount of disruption and cantrips. However, I was not able to craft a winning grip either game that could fight through his abundance of permission. As I recall, I had to deal with 3 Force of Wills in game 1 before he resolved Eureka for the game, and game 2 was an even bigger disaster as my cantrips failed to find adequate protection for a total of 4 Force of Wills and 1 Misdirection over the course of the game.
0-1
Round 2: Hive Mind, Win
Game 1 was over in short order when Gitaxian Probe revealed his gameplan with no permission to back it up. Duress hit show and tell and he was dead a few turns later from a show-boat Grapeshot. Game two was a loose keep on my part and while he did not have any permission again, he did have the combo, and my cantrips failed to find sufficient acceleration or disruption before he was able to resolve it. Game 3 was over on turn 2 when I resolved silence into an Ad Nauseum, finding more than enough gas to Tendrils him out.
1-1
Round 3: Esper Stoneblade
This matchup was a bit of a cakewalk. His turn 1 Thoughseize could only hit one of my tutors and my Probe showed he only had a Force of Will to stop me, which I grabbed with Duress. On my next turn I dropped a bunch of goblins on the field, and they went the distance. Game two he cast Lingering Souls and Jitte while I crafted my hand, and I was able to silence him out of the game, on turn 4, before he could create a relevant number of Jitte counters to prevent a lethal Tendrils.
2-1
Round 4: Burn
I knew my opponent was playing burn, so I mulliganed a slowish hand into a 6-card grip that could Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins on turn 2, while on the play. The goblins finished the game while I was still at a healthy 7 life. Between games, my opponent mentioned something that sounded like a confirmation of my suspicion that his sideboard against me was limited to Mindbreak Trap. Despite that knowledge, the look on his face when he saw his 7 told me the Trap was not among his starting cards. I acted on that intuition and fired off a turn 1 Ad Nauseum. My guess was correct, and he lost the game after only getting a chance to swing with his first turn Goblin Guide.
3-1
Round 5: Sneak/Show
My opponent was initially confused by a combination of Gitaxian Probe, followed by a Polluted Delta, which later fetched a Volcanic Island. The few turns it took him to deduce what I was playing bought me time turn a conservative keep into something that could win. When he finally Sneak Attacked in a Grizzelbrand, his deck failed him by not only failing to produce a petal/monster combo to kill me on the spot in the first 14 draws, but also missed hitting even a single force of will. After an attack, and 7 more draws he was still in the same position. With him sitting at 6 life, all I had to do was turn my below-average hand into a small Tendrils. The exact same situation replayed itself in game 2, except he was much faster, and my storm count was smaller. With him at 4 life, I ended up with 5 copies of Tendrils on the stack. He had Misdirections for 3 of them, but was not aware that he would not gain life for the copies that hit me. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
4-1
Round 6: Merfolk
I was not happy to see a maindeck Stifle in his opening hand when I cast a 1st turn Duress, but luckily that was all the permission he had. Empty the Warrens on turn 2 put 14 goblins on the field, and he was not able to summon enough fish to stop the assault. Game 2 was fairly drawn out as I slowly drew out a large amount of counter-magic that was revealed by Gitaxian Probe, but he presented no real clock to pressure me. Eventually I whittled down his permission and won through past in flames and a barrage of previously countered rituals and tutors in my graveyard.
5-1
Round 7: Goblins
I saw one of my playtest buddies play this opponent the round before this, and both games were blowouts in favor of the Goblin player. He obviously knew his deck very well, but I was quite happy with the matchup because I did not see plateaus or Thalia's in his deck during that match. He also knows what I'm playing and he jokes that the entire match will last no more than 18 total turns. Unfortunately, my first turn Probe revealed I was in for a tougher time than I thought, as Thalia was in his opener. Luckily, my hand featured a turn 2 Ad Nauseum with mana floating, which quickly turned into a lethal Tendrils. Game 2 I lead with a duress, seeing a Thalia, the mana to cast it, a bunch of red-guys, and no legal options for discard. After Thalia came down on turn 2, the game was pretty much over, but I played on just to see what else he brought in. The rub-ins came from my deck a turn later when I drew the Inquision of Kozilek I boarded in specifically to nab Thalia. Regardless, another Probe revealed Red Elemental Blast had come in, and he killed me shortly thereafter. My hand for game 3 was solid, but I was forced to go for an Ad Nauseum on turn 2 with no floating mana when Gitaxian Probe revealed Thalia in his opening hand again. The Ad Nauseum was terrible, resulting in me losing over half my life to cantrips and discard before I hit any manner of acceleration or tutors. Luckily, I was able to stop revealing at 2 life when I finally got the pieces to put together exactly enough mana and storm to cast a tendrils for 20. Total turns in the match: 13.
6-1
Quarterfinals: RUG Delver
After clawing my way from the round 1 loss to my 2nd top-8 of the weekend, I was paired against a RUG Delver list with a several Flusterstorms in the main, in addition to the average permission suite, as well as the full complement of Stifles. There's not much to say about this match, except my cantrips did not find what I needed, and his draws were quite good. Game 1, I died without a permanent on the board after getting Wastelanded out, and my subsequent artifact mana running into a barrage of Dazes and Spell-Pierces. All while a Goyf and Delver were running full-speed into the red-zone. Game 2 was much of the same. His opening 7 were quite strong once again, but as I recall, the game was within reach until he blindly flipped his Delver off Daze just after I had finished dealing with his initial permission. I was unfortunately not in a position to go off through the daze, and things only got worse when he ripped another wasteland a turn later. The delver clock was joined by a Goyf, and I was not able to put together a combination of cards in time that could get the job done.
Result: 7th.
I'm not sure how much of that information is useful to anyone, and the list is fairly standard, but I'll be lurking around if there is anything that should be clarified.
Anyway, I just want to close by saying all the information in this thread has been invaluable. Thanks to all the contributors.
There are so many things I dislike about this list/manabase. This is a deck that opperates off of 1-2 lands almost all the time, drawing basic swamp, island, Volcanic/Badlands is going to be terrible at times.
I hate Pulverize, I will never think that card is good. It doesn't deal with Trinisphere effectively. Reverent Silence? Really? Same could be said for Dread of Night. This list gets housed by Teeg.
Whatever though, people can play whatever they'd like.
I was q believer of the Dread of Nights over Karakas until I used Karakas. That game
went bounce Thalia then win.
It was a Gaddock Teeg in game two (I Green Sun Zenith'd for it). Regardless, the fact that it saved you a mana was pretty huge.
You're very right about that (aside from Volcanic). I was never insinuating that this manabase was superior to a 5c one, I was just kind of testing it on the side to see precisely how well having the potential ability to prevent Wasteland activations during your developmental phases is (in addition to Therapy over Silence), and it's not bad.
Pulverize is the mass-artifact destruction spell for this list since red sources aren't nearly as abundant; Shattering Spree is better in your list. Nothing really deals with Trinisphere effectively. Still on the fence over Reverent Silence, as I don't even think it's truly good at getting rid of Counterbalances; its inclusion came after a rough testing session with UW. Dread of Night is a fine card; it's not necessarily better than a bounce spell, but it obviously has a lot of plusses. Teeg doesn't house this list.
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I was thinking if you happened to draw Island + Volcanic or Swamp + Badlands, those situations.
I would probably run a card like Meltdown before I ran Pulverize. Maybe opt for a non-wishable answer? Rebuild? Hurkyls? The dream of answering Counterbalance through Burning Wish has left my head, it's almost never an optimal place to be. You're better off just being proactive or at least running Pyroblast. Who knows, people running Decay may scare off Counterbalance from decklists.
How does Teeg not house this list? You need two Dread of Night (Assuming you have naturally drawn two or have Infernal'd and they didn't Green Sun's Zenith for Pridemage) or Burning Wish for Silence Departure.
Let me chime in here since there's some talk about people testing a mana base to help against wasteland. I tested it last year when my meta was completely bat shit rampant with wastelands and I learned 2 things. One was if you use fetches/duals to make up this mana base it can slow the deck down tremendously, and speed is one of the strong points of playing TES. Two, 4 chrome mox is sick against wasteland. So guys don't play a ant style mana base and forgo silence because of it. Just cut a probe and/or ponder for a 4th chrome mox. It'll be sweet. I promise.
I never really had huge problems with Wasteland due to Chrome Mox, that's why I believe that it should still be a 4 of in the deck. Cook was right all along about the Gitaxian Probes in the mainboard.. Running a 57 card deck while seeing their hand before you turn 1-2 Warrens / Ad Nauseam is just premium for 2 life. Not mention 2 goblins can mean all the difference.
How do you guys side against RUG / UW Miracles? So when to the Xantid Swarms come in?
I agree, I've found the same to be true for Fetchlands and Dual Lands to a certain extent where I get color screwed on not being able to produce U, b and r or U, b and w quite a bit and I'm on the 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 3 Underground Sea, 4 Chrome Mox manabase with 4 Gitaxian Probe.
Drawing Badlands is terrible and drawing Volcanic Island is bad, those two cards fill me with murderous rage every time I open with them. If/when they print a 3rd viable Golden Land, I don't think I'd ever bother to play another Fetch or Dual Land in the deck regardless of Brainstorm.
Epic Experiment XUR
Sorcery
Exile the top X cards of your library.
For each instant and sorcery cards with converted mana cost X or less among them, you may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards exiled this way that weren't cast into your graveyard.
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Was just thinking about this too. But how? More applicable I think in UBr AdN as you will surely wont be exiling Chant/Silence, Chrome Mox. Only drawback is that UBr AdN has more lands so the chances that you exile one is high.
Hmm, it's more or less a watered down Mind's Desire that scales with our mana instead of with our storm count, I think it's playable if you look at it like the 2xLED sink. Exiling Silence is irrelevant, because you've already resolved your threat, you're still generating Storm and Mind's Desire wouldn't be able to imprint Chrome Mox either, which makes me wonder at what mana investment is this card on par with Diminishing Returns trading land drops and artifact acceleration for free mana costs?
Ideally you'd always want to cast it for at least 5 so you can flip your Ad Nauseam, and 9 mana is plausible if 2xLED is the pre-requisite. Also the cool thing about this card when compared to Diminishing Returns is that your opponent doesn't get to draw into Force of Will and you get to keep all copies of Rite of Flame in your graveyard. Furthermore it seems like a pretty strong wish target even without LED, because you can Burning Wish for it and cast it on your next turn.
What are the odds of flipping 1 of 2 Ad Nauseam in a 53 card deck if you can draw 5 cards?
I think this could be a pretty good card in theory, but the mana cap on it is a huge detriment.
Mana is a problem. If you want to use your LED's and wish for this it's 9 mana for 5 cards where diminishing returns is 6 mana for 7 cards ... that's a huge gap not even the "Free"-clause can fill given that most of the deck is mana and 1cc cantrips. I doubt It offers any real advantage over DR as a First/Second Turn Play Out of the SB.
I rather imagine it's application MD if Ad Nauseam isn't an option due to low life or as mana sink After your infernal/Wish got countered/discarded to come back into the game. Otherwise, any drawn BW or infernal would do the same :/
This is an exciting card and needs testing
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Agreed, I'm gonna test it when it comes out as a 1 of in the board. I'm gonna keep dr also as it's a less mana intensive option to combo.
When I test it I'll probably test it with a list with 2 ad nauseams md.
I'm really excited about this card.
It's not MD material IMO, yeah the card is definitely cost innefficient compared to Diminishing Returns, but if you want another example of a cost inefficient card then you can look at Past in Flames and that turned out alright. Even if we're talking about casting this thing for like 6+ cards it's not out of the realm of plausibility, and the key difference between this and Diminishing Returns, like Past in Flames and Ill Gotten Gains, is that they don't draw off our business spell.
Ran the list in a local tonight beating Dredge, RUG, Death and Taxes, Lost to Hivemind, then beat it in the finals. The deck ran incredibly well, I'm still very happy with this list.
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