the hell... why you play so many ShitLands...Originally Posted by Grapeshot
I just saw a little of this video, but well you deserve loosing playing badlands and next drawing swamp and making those cantrips so useless...
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Calm down, it's clearly a pick-your-poison type of scenario. The 1st Volc and Badlands are easily defensible choices, but then you want a third mountain for Pulverize, so you have to choose between enabling your 8 cantrips, or your 8 discard spells + 4 Dark Rituals.
For me, I picked 2 Volcs because I had a lot of black sources as-is (I play Swamp + Bayou currently, no basic Island. My next build will have no green, so I'll likely be on a 2nd Badlands over Bayou, with a fetch replacing the 2nd Volc.). In the last 60 matches I played with my lists, I can think of at least 5 times I had an awkward dearth of black mana because I was on 2 Volcs, in much the same way you might get stuck on cantrips with double Badlands. Sometimes you get the bad beats, it happens.
Did you have this same opinion when that second Badlands was a main board Bayou instead? It's the 14th land, we previously played 13 lands. Sometimes you lose to bad variance, I don't really see where you're going with this, but it's kind of a silly non-argument if you ask me. Having the second Underground Sea over the second Badlands is very marginal, and we need to support Pulverize.
Yes, yes we did, neither of us have ever stayed on a list with Island and Badlands and reducing the number of fetchlands for Swamp, the number of duallands and the number of blue producing lands is not marginal at all. Personally I never played with Badlands until I cut Bayou, and I agree 2 Badlands is completely unnecessary so don't make it out as if there are no other dissenting opinions here or that your choices aren't questionable. Even if you do cut Bayou, playing Badlands for Pulverize is still debatable considering Wasteland is a thing and you could wish for Consign/Oblivion instead.
Pulverize is alright, but it isn't a reason to seriously contort the manabase beyond 2 Volc/1 Bad.
How often do you play? Both Bryant and I started with 2 Underground Seas after the banning, decided having the second Sea didn't really matter, with 8 fetch lands you hardly get color screwed the way I did in that one game. Like I said, variance happens. And what do you mean reduce the number of fetch lands? Where?
Also, Wasteland is the reason you need a third red dual to support Pulverize. Consign//Oblivion isn't really good either.
Everyone on theepicstorm.com has been on 2 Badlands for a few weeks now, including myself and Bryant. Judging from the past almost 400 pages of this thread, it seems like you both just don't like to see deck changes. Then you see one game that was lost to variance on a mulligan, and you immediately claim it's wrong, seems good.
Double Badlands is a thing now?
What have we become...
No, seriously, I've been out of it for like two years.
What have we become?
Apparently, Probe is gone. (I'm not sad about that at all.)
But what the heck? Don't we just go back to the pre-Probe lists?
Or is Pulverize that good right now?
Badlands is the best land in the deck, and Pulverize is OP. Chalice on one and chalice on zero? Pulverize doesn’t care. Kill the the same turn you Wish for the removal spell. B r o k e n.Double Badlands is a thing now?
What have we become...
No, seriously, I've been out of it for like two years.
What have we become?
Apparently, Probe is gone. (I'm not sad about that at all.)
But what the heck? Don't we just go back to the pre-Probe lists?
Or is Pulverize that good right now?
I don't get it, are you suggesting that we play old 2010 lists instead of lists that are relevant to the 2018 metagame?Double Badlands is a thing now?
What have we become...
No, seriously, I've been out of it for like two years.
What have we become?
Apparently, Probe is gone. (I'm not sad about that at all.)
But what the heck? Don't we just go back to the pre-Probe lists?
Or is Pulverize that good right now?
Well, Bryant has been tuning this deck since way before that, and I'm sure he tried a number of Badlands before as well. But instead, he opted for a number of rainbow lands. In heavy prison metas we used to play all kinds of hate. Shattering Spree comes to mind, and later Meltdown. Echoing Truth also has always been an option. Pulverize is an interesting option, but it requires building your entire mana base around it, and that seems wrong when you have so many alternatives. Plus: it's not like the entire meta is Chalice/Thorn decks right now. We rarely played Pulverize back in the Dragon Stompy/White Prison era, so I don't see why it should be OP now.
As for Badlands: the argument that you don't want to play too many lands that cannot cast cantrips used to be king. I would expect that argument still stands at least to some extent.
The meta, as far as I can see right now, actually isn't all that different from 2010. There's Counterbalance control (without Top, but still dangerous), Stoneblade with blue, Death&Taxes/Hatebear.dec, some form of Tempo Threshold, Prison Stompy and a few combo variants. The most popular decks (and the decks that look like they score best) play cantrips and Force of Will, just like in 2010. So yeah, it looks like not that much has changed compared to 8 years ago. At least, to me it looks like that. I might be wrong though. I'm not saying everyone here is an idiot. It just looks weird when you come back after a few years and you suddenly see mana bases and sideboard cards that were available in '08 (when I started to play TES) but were discarded as bad back then, but are now called super important, even though all the same arguments from '08 are still valid.
Last edited by Asthereal; 10-03-2018 at 08:44 AM.
I feel you dude it definitely looks way different from the 2010 lists. On paper the list might look like it’s trying to support Pulverize but realistically it’s more that badlands is one of be best options for the 14th land. The gold lands made a lot of brainstorm locked situations come up that with a mana base more focused on fetch lands it lets us avoid that. The third red source is really good for past in flames lines and playing around wasteland too. I see where you’re coming from but if you gave the list some reps for a month or so I’m sure you’d see why it’s set up how it is. To be honest TES is basically a really streamlined Grixis Storm list and having access to our combo colors from badlands is a huge asset even without pulverize. As far as pulverize goes, the card in testing is a blow out. And I feel like it’s worth mentioning how strong it is that we can fetch it and cast it the same turn to play under thought knot seer and wasteland. Idk, put it together on Mtgo and give it a try. The list feels really good!
Last edited by StonedforgeMystic; 10-02-2018 at 03:23 PM.
I might just do that. I don't have an MTGO collection, but I think I have everything in paper, so I'll goldfish it a bit. See how it rolls.
And I can always be a stubborn bastard and swap the second Badlands for a second Volcanic, in order to have better chances to cast my cantrips.
Though I have to admit it's really tempting to put together the old pre-Probe ANT list with 2x AdN and 19 accell. That list was so smooth and easy to play (which helps a ton if you're as rusty as me).
1) I said the number of fetch lands for Swamp (6 instead of 8).
2) Just because you want to play Pulverize doesn't mean you have to play 2 Badlands, you can play Volcanic Islands where your Fetchland, go. Land, Cantrip and break fetch plays are more search efficient. If you guys want to play an ANT like manabase, that's your call, but in my experience Island, 25% less fetch lands for each Basic and Badlands have their own associated cost to your consistency
3) If you're judging from the last 400 pages of this thread, then you should realize A) I've tried everything already B) I'm open to change when it's objectively better and C) I'm responsible for a lot of the changes to the deck as it is.
4) I've been playing TES since Plunge into Darkness with Beta duals from childhood, I honestly have no idea who you are, how long you have been playing it or have any reason to let you sit there and insinuate my argument is irrational when you're nothing but some recent convert writing weak articles for Bryant's personal webpage - 2 can play that game kid. You've been playing 2 Badlands for 2 weeks? Come back to me when you've seen the trends in this deck for over 10 years.
Been on the deck since 2010 myself and I have roughly 300 matches in since the ban of probe. But whatever think what you want and play what you want. ✌️
Guys, no need to start bashing.
@Stonedforge: I'm pretty sure Final Fortune was responding to Grapeshot, not you. Also, I've read all your three posts on this forum, and I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who offended Final Fortune.
Pointing to a face value meta of SFM, Delver, SnT, DnT, Loam, etc similar to 2010s structure is highly misleading and completely ignoring the fact that about 20% of all the decks consist of cards printed after that point in time.
You can't run 2010 lists and expect to battle 2018 techs sucessfully. Evaluation has to be done with the current meta context.
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I feel like doing exactly that, just to prove a point.
Where my Simian Spirit Guides at?
In general, part of the reason I don't post here anymore is everyone who replies in this thread is overly dismissive to new ideas. I test things all the time and was shut down repeatedly here, recently, I've found a lot of success with trying things that posters here dislike. Such as two copies of Badlands and Pulverize, Badlands is secretly the best land in the deck as you're a Red & Black combo deck with only 8 blue cards. Four of which are regularly sided out. If you're siding out Ponders roughly 35%-40% of the time, does playing two copies of Volcanic Island make sense? Likely not.
All of my match-up data is public, if you want to question results and numbers have at it. But Anthony was simply playing an iteration of my list, attacking him over a land choice is somewhat ridiculous. If there's anything to question in this thread, it's how members here think that something that would've worked 10 years ago will work today.
You're not obligated to follow the website, I don't expect everyone to, but don't shutdown people who do because you're stuck in your ways from 10 years ago.
If you guys have good results with 2x Badlands and Pulverize, that's cool. I'm not attacking anyone for it.
My brain just goes like this:
We are the fastest and most dangerous combo deck around (barring maybe Belcher and Oops All Spells).
Because of this, I think this particular deck should optimize winning chances first, and adapt to opposition second.
Being able to cast cantrips is very important, so I don't want to run too many lands that don't produce blue.
I think here is the root of the misunderstanding in regards to the 2nd Badlands and the 4th Chrome Mox, which wasnt mentioned despite it chopping the same notch:
Cantrips (in this meta) are more likely to get boarded out in postboard games to mimic a more belcher-like gameplay, thus less blue mana is needed compared to red, black and fast one (aka 4th mox and badlands). Badlands is arguably supporting the "black belcher" route better than Volcanic as well as providing the ability of floating black mana into Pulverize at the very same time.
All this is open for discussion, but the "why" needs to be outlined.
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Yeah, Bryant said that as well. That indeed is new to me. I rarely sided out more than two Ponders.
Actually, I'm not a heavy sideboarder at all when I run TES. I like the flow of the main board a lot.
The 4th Chrome Mox is a different beast. I see that becoming a Simian Spirit Guide in my list.
I just don't have the greatest luck when running the full set of Moxen.
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