[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Pelikanudo]

Ad Nauseam never fizzles. I don't know what you're doing with your Ad Nauseams to make them fizzle tbh.



This card is horrible man. If you run Probes you don't have to run this.



I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.

Well The idea is that Gitaxian is in deed not needed as I always have been confortable with the 13 land 4 c.moxen configuration.
I've been noticing that playing 12 lands and 3-4 moxen and gitaxian as parity conept can be a way to handle the numbers regarding stable mana base but the reality is that you with 12 lands 3 moxen your manabase is not stable that 's why I think 13 lands 4 moxen 0 gitaxian is correct.
Gitaxian is good in producing storm and to see hand and nothing else, instead you will want A land Or a WinCon Or a Disruption.
Gitaxian is good again well paired with Therapy, in here I noticed we don't need therepy
Gitaxian is always sided out so the therapy is weaker so numbers again seems not proper.
Gitaxian is good with Empty main as you wil generate more than 5 and less than 10 storm so Empty With Gitaxian is ok.
A turn one resolved Empty is generally gg but I just can't go in that route as regardless I play Empty main or not I win BUG, RUG and Tempo variants in first games BUT in second and 3rd games statistics come and makes yoyu loos because of nbot drawing land or simply they have a So Powerful turn 1 defense that you inevitability MUST to use the long route, in that case Tendrils OR Empty are in deed equal and may Tendrils can be better in main because of less percentage of fizzing.

That is the reasoning.
I changed again even to 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress disruption.
and the only card I 've hated was 2nd A.N. and 1Grim utor can be a decent replacement.
I thouth that maybe -1 disruption -1 A.N = +2 gitaxian was ok, and then more gitaxian were added instead of lands and moxen... Finally 4 gitaxian were added to the deck and the cost was -1moxen-1land-1 disruption-1A.N. and we ddn't noticed that the -1 Lands was a great error...I think that was the correct route the one with 13 lands 8 disruption 4 moxen 2A.N. and Tendrils main.

When I read this:
I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.
You will understand me that As Concept In TES this should not happen or should not happen too often.
I mean A.N Must be superior to Empty and we seem to tune the deck to make Empty more powerful than A.N...Do't think that is the route.

[Bahamuth]

and to see hand and nothing else

Do you know how insane it is to see your opponents hand for free?

Gitaxian is always sided out so the therapy is weaker so numbers again seems not proper.

I don't even side out Probe. It's way too good to side out.

A turn one resolved Empty is generally gg but I just can't go in that route as regardless I play Empty main or not I win BUG, RUG and Tempo variants in first games BUT in second and 3rd games statistics come and makes yoyu loos because of nbot drawing land or simply they have a So Powerful turn 1 defense that you inevitability MUST to use the long route, in that case Tendrils OR Empty are in deed equal and may Tendrils can be better in main because of less percentage of fizzing.

How does not drawing a land make a difference here? You were going to keep hands without land if you didn't have EtW in your deck? Additionally, most blue hate gets turned on at one or two mana. having the opportunity to win before that is already worth the card in your deck. Even more so because it's a really good draw.

and the only card I 've hated was 2nd A.N. and 1Grim utor can be a decent replacement.

Do you not see how it makes no sense to add a horrible card like Grim Tutor and remove the EtW? They are both buisness.

and we ddn't noticed that the -1 Lands was a great error...

I don't know what you're talking about here. I never ran 12 land.

I don't even know what it means that it's a bad concept, but I don't know why it's bad to have a card in my deck that probably wins me more games than Ad Nauseam.
You will understand me that As Concept In TES this should not happen or should not happen too often.
I mean A.N Must be superior to Empty and we seem to tune the deck to make Empty more powerful than A.N...Do't think that is the route.

The statement that Ad Nauseam must be 'superior' to EtW is just arbitrary.

[Dark Ritual]

Do you know how insane it is to see your opponents hand for free?



I don't even side out Probe. It's way too good to side out.



How does not drawing a land make a difference here? You were going to keep hands without land if you didn't have EtW in your deck? Additionally, most blue hate gets turned on at one or two mana. having the opportunity to win before that is already worth the card in your deck. Even more so because it's a really good draw.



Do you not see how it makes no sense to add a horrible card like Grim Tutor and remove the EtW? They are both buisness.



I don't know what you're talking about here. I never ran 12 land.



The statement that Ad Nauseam must be 'superior' to EtW is just arbitrary.

Agreed on probe. I ALWAYS want to draw probe in here or in ANT, the only times I don't are copies after the first one as paying 2 life a bunch isn't the best. Seeing the opponents hand for free is the nut high in storm combo, where you care about one thing and that is what the opponent has in their hand barring hate permanents. Siding it out never crosses my mind unless I'm boarding in a boatload of cards.

Agreed on keeping hands without lands. The only reason I ever do keep lands without lands is if I've mulled into oblivion or I have the nut draw. There's no excuse for keeping poor hands without lands, as you're very likely going to lose the game if you do so barring some sick topdecks.

Grim tutor is a terrible card in TES. Removing EtW for it makes almost zero sense. I'd never play grim tutor in TES as the card doesn't make the cut in here, Bryant tested the card a while back and guess what? Infernal and wish are leagues ahead of it and if you think you need more than 8 tutor effects you're wrong. You have about an 80% chance of drawing a wish/tutor in your opening hand. Then you have 10+ cantrips in brainstorm, ponder, and probe. You also have the 1 of ad nauseam to draw as well as the 1 of EtW. That means there are 10 business spells essentially as well as the cantrips, making over a third of your deck live draws (ponder, brainstorm, probe, wish, tutor, AdN, EtW.) If you can't draw a business spell for the life of you, accept the bad beat and move on to the next game. The chances of this happening are incredibly slim if you mulligan correctly.

Agreed on ad nauseam not being strictly better than EtW. EtW can give you games you have no business winning otherwise, as some opponents simply let you resolve all the mana into the naturally drawn EtW that completely wrecks their stacked hand of countermagic. Or they're stupid and let you tutor for it with 3R floating, although this is less likely I've seen it happen where my opponents let me tutor so as to counter what I tutor for and then I fetch EtW and breeze past all their hate.

[KevinTrudeau]

@Pelikanudo— Cutting Empty from the maindeck diminishes the consistency of the chief line of play versus Canadian Threshold, which is to (safely, I might add; if an opponent leaves up mana on turns one and two without casting a one-drop, you should generally switch to Plan B) make 10+ Goblins on turns one or two (Plan B, which we defer to once enough blockers+burn are in play, being build up enough cards/resources to Past in Flames or raw dog Tendrils). This is as such because once a Threshold player gets past his or her developmental turns (also turns one and two), he or she can (generally speaking) leave up resources for the rest of the game with which to disrupt us with; if we pounce early, they'll generally only have zero or one pieces of castable disruption within that frame of time, as opposed to a plethora as early as one turn, but generally two turns, later (Wasteland being one example of said disruption). Generally speaking, it sucks having a redundant/worthless copy of a card versus Force of Will combo decks, LED combo decks, and UW past turn two or so in the maindeck (Empty the Warrens' behavior versus blue decks is kind of an inverse of a current maindeck exclusion, Tendrils of Agony, in that it's awesome turns one-two and then usually gets geometrically worse each turn thereafter, whereas Tendrils is balls turns one-two and gets geometrically better each turn thereafter), but what it really comes down to is what you expect to face in any given tournament. If Threshold is the most popular deck in the field (something I believe you've alluded to in the past concerning your local metagame), you should probably have a maindeck copy; if you don't expect to face Canadian Thresh, Merfolk, etc. but once in the Swiss portions of a tourney and believe the field to be chock full of Show and Tell decks, feel free to run Tendrils again in the maindeck, cutting the Empty.

Try boarding out Ad Nauseam for ToA versus Merfolk and Canadian Thresh if you're playing EtW maindeck, as Ad Naus is redundant [in a general sense; obviously, there are many cases (drawing parallels here with the Reforge/Dim Returns debate here) where having access to Ad Naus specifically will win a game versus not having it, but you have to play your percentages] at that point.

Heed the words of Bahamuth, Dark Ritual, Bryant, myself, etc.: Grim Tutor is a large pile of poop.

Also, never ever try ketamine; nothing good ever came from Special K.

[Endure2004]

My tournament report for the November NELC Jupiter Games Duel for Duals:

My list:

4 dark rit
4 rite of flame
4 LED
3 Chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
3 duress
4 silence
4 fetches
2 underground seas
1 volcanic island
3 gemstone mine
2 city of brass

SB
1 past in flames
1 ill gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 revoke existence
1 time spiral
2 karakas
4 cabal therapy
2 abrupt decay
1 empty the warrens

Onto the matches!

R1 against Mark quackenbush goblins

Game 1 he has a double vial start with a wasteland. My hand is all rite of flames and burning wish when I'm forced to do something, and I end up making a bunch of goblins even though I would lose to matron for sharpshooter. His board is 2x vial, warchief, lackey, piledriver, some other goblin and I attack into him a couple times. On a critical turn, I burning wish for a grapeshot. I go to attack and post combat try to grapeshot his piledriver to death to not die on the backswing, and he vials in chieftain. Ouch, I die. I board in therapies and abrupt decays

Game 2 I have an awkward draw where I drew all 4 therapies (which i don't want to do...). On a crucial turn, I have a tutor chain into a tendrils for exact storm.

Game 3 He has a great hand going lackey, go. He then proceeds to waste me, drop double port, and port me while applying pressure. I rip a brainstorm, so on my next upkeep when he ports I brainstorm, hit another brainstorm, then brainstorm again, and find enough mana to go city of brass, lotus petal, some rituals, 2 LED's, and I could tutor chain him into a lethal tendrils, but I IGG loop him to check on his last cards (REB, land, land)

R2 against Nich Compton on Black Red Gate

I've played against Nich a lot, so I know most of his list. He's got hand disruption, bobs, grim lavamancers, liliana, gatekeeper of malakir, vampire nighthawk in his deck.
Game 1 I have the option of waiting a turn to try and draw a mana source to safely ad nauseum in a couple turns (need a land or a petal) or make 8 goblins. I'm on the play, so I end up making 8 goblins. He tells me later he had 2 1 mana hand disruption spells so it ended up being right I think. He plays grim lavamancer, on turn 2 he grims 1 and blocks 1. Then he plays gatekeeper of malakir kicked. He fails to draw into a nighthawk and dies. I board in therapies and abrupt decays cuz I've seen him run chalice in the past.
Game 2 I'm expecting a lot of hand disruption, I keep a hand of rite of flame, 2 ponders, some lands, and an adnauseum. He thoughtsiezes turn 1 taking ponder I think, I draw burning wish. turn 2 he plays tidehollow sculler taking my burning wish. Turn 3 I draw probe into petal and another rite of flame, and I play out my ad nauseum into a tendrils.

R3 against Matt Bell on dredge

Game 1 I remember duressing, taking away a draw spell, and then ad nauseuming for the win. In come therapies.
Game 2 He has a weak hand and casts some dudes (no dredging). I go to time spiral midway into the game with plenty of lands out and make a mistake, getting an LED nature's claimed when I could've avoided it. It didn't end up mattering, as I had an abundance of mana and my time spiral drew me into more mana and no tutors. I dig for a turn or two, don't find one, and die to 4 narcomoebas and a golgari thug beating me down (all hard cast). Embarassing.
Game 3 He keeps another weak hand where he casts dudes and doesn't dredge. I cast time spiral on three lands and draw into petal, dark rit, LED, burning wish. The rest of the cards didn't matter :)

R4 against Connor Thompson on UR burn

I know Connor from Ithaca and I knew what he was on.

Game 1 I keep a weak hand on the draw without a land drop but with a petal, rituals, ad nauseum, tutor, and an LED and a brainstorm. He plays delver on turn 1. I go to play my petal, and he dazes. I find a land on turn 2 and duress. He plays another delver and a goblin guide. I'm forced to ad nauseum from 8 and I die. I take out a ponder and a probe for 2 therapies.
Game 2 Midway through the game he has some burn spells and a force but no blue card and I have cantrips into mana into tutor chain for a lethal tendrils.
Game 3 I have an empty the warrens line with duress backup (I have to go for it so I can duress off dark rit) but he has double force to stop me. I lose.

R5 feature match against Joey on UW rest in peace helm of obedience combo.

Game 1 I have a setup where I can either duress and then ad nauseum next turn, or I can play rituals, duress, and then ad nauseum with 1 less floating. I decide to go safer, but I see a hand of counterspell, counterbalance, counterbalance. He plays it next turn with a top out. I check with a rite of flame, and he has another top revealed. I scoop. Expecting counterbalance, I board in abrupt decays and a couple therapies.
Game 2 Don't remember much. It was grindy, I eventually ad nauseum I think.
Game 3 Another long grindy game. I think he mulliganed both here and game 1. He enlightened tutors for a rule of law. I burning wish, then revoke existence on the next turn. He's eventually out of cards with a top out. I make a mistake by playing a rite of flame into an ad nauseum without playing a lotus petal and an LED (also had a burning wish in hand). He pops top and spell pierces it. Next turn, I play burning wish into past in flames and recast ad nauseum. It gets there.

R6 feature match against Doug Mckay on UR empty the warrens Jace TMS blood moon angel stompy

Doug always has the craziest decks :)
Game 1 I ad nauseum into a win, My probe revealed rite of flame, and like 4 cantrips.
Game 2 This game is long and involved. He plays a blood moon early off a chrome mox and basics. I eventually find a burning wish and a petal to revoke existence it. He plays another. Then he plays Jace. I still fight, but Jace eventually takes over with card advantage. He cliques me, and it's downhill from there.
Game 3 Also long and involved. He lands another blood moon. This time, however, I burning wish for empty. next turn, I play 3 lotus petals, tap 4 lands, and empty for 8. He pierces, I pay. He dazes, I pay. He dazes one copy, I get 6 goblins. They beat down, he's low on cards. He goes to clique my draw step to block, I play dark ritual ad nauseum in response. I draw some cards until I see a rite of flame and a burning wish (blood moon still out) and stop. He forgets to take a card with clique after seeing the ad nauseum flop. I beat him down to 1 the next turn, and rite of flame burning wish into a grapeshot.

Top 8! Woo! First top 8 with T.E.S.

Round 1 top 8 against Greg komar on Junk
Game 1 I IGG loop him on turn 2 on the play.
Game 2 I have a turn 1 kill, but he duresses turn 1, then plays an ethersworn canonist that I don't find an answer to. He thought about tapping a mana to play the enlightened tutor on turn 1 to get it, and it immediately popped into my head, but he played a bob instead. I even thought this, but I didn't pull the trigger on therapy naming enlightened tutor. If I had, the game would've been different :(. I lose before finding an answer.
Game 3 I mulligan to 5, He has turn 1 thalia off a mox diamond. I find a karakas to bounce her and burning wish for time spiral to find a new hand. He wastes karakas replays thalia. He draws 2 more wastelands, the fact that time spiral was inferior to time spiral in this situation didn't end up mattering as I couldn't cast either and lost.

I end up with a playset of bayous for my troubles. Thanks for reading! :)

[Stoyrm]

Won a tournament this weekend; Beating Burn, Goblins, Dredge, Miracles, BUG Control and two other decks i can't seem to remember atm - Losing only to Omniscience.

Empty the Warrens is insane and won me many games this weekend. Without a doubt a much better main deck card than ToA in my opinion. Anyways; Xantid Swarm was pretty good in the Miracles match.

I believe the fourth Gitaxian Probe in the list should be cut. I found the list didn't need 61 cards.


EDIT: Actually; i might have played one more fetchland than is in Bryant's List maybe that where the 61st card came from. Oh well.
Another EDIT: Also, i never wanted to play Reforge the Soul or when i did want to play it i was one mana short. I know Diminishing Returns isn't a reset button, but against Dredge it would have been nice to have it as just that ;D.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bahamut
@DarkRitual
@KevinTrudeaus
mainly

I'd like to see your lists of TES, mainly Bahamut or at least the diff between the Bryant list and yours.
as the B.Cooks design has 12 lands 3 moxen you said you have more than 12 lands.
Also you don't side out Gitaxian, could you expose your side strategy vs Canadian and BUG variants mainly. you say then you side out ponders, do you consider Gitaxian > Ponder?


Thanks for your support, I don't have much time , as long I have time I'll respond to all of your comments.
IMHO, as Good players as we are we don't need to see hands opponent we simply should know what they have, gitaxian 1)makes you loose 2 lifes 2)and generate storm 3)and makes you see the opp hands.
If the main purpose is to see hand I just don't need it, as for storm generator is good only well paired with empty.

[Bahamuth]

Mainboard:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Duress
3 Silence/Cabal Therapy


1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic
4 Mine
3 City
4 Fetch

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tropical Island
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diminishing Returns


This is what I ran at the GP. I don't really know how I would currently change the board, as I haven't tested with Abrupt Decays yet. It might be better to run some number of Karakas instead of some of the Chain of Vapors.

I board -2 Wish +2 EtW against Rug. Against BUG it depends on what they're playing. There are so many different forms of BUG currently. If I don't see Deeds, I will probably board into EtW as well. Swarm is usually out of the question as they run infinite removal and will never board all of it out.

How exactly do you propose we know what they have in their hand if he's drawing random cards from a 60 card deck?

[Pelikanudo]

Well now I have somo more time,

It is impossible to know the hand from a random 60, I agree, but I didn't mean this exactly,
For example let's take as example the scenario:
Hand with 1 land and Random 6 starting you:
Regardless of what is playing the opponent I,
- I won't play the land unless 1)I have brainstorm or 2)ponder or 3)another land or 4)have a 1st turn win, this last case is debatable.

What I mean with this scenario is that you don't need gitaxian for these options to be changed, and this is applicable to other similar scenarios, for their purpose this can be the most crucial play in the deck. For sure gitaxian can help to determine if playing a land or not or comboing safety or not. But,
Gitaxian is played in TES as Parity concept mainly, so to the Bryant list the changes were:
- 1 Land, -1 A.N, -1 C.Mox, -1 Disruption.

So
I can say even that the numbers of a)lands b) c.moxen and c) Disruption seemed always ok before Gitaxian and the parity concept can ruin scenarios like before exposed as you'll find that your mulligans can get bigger or gitaxian can be countered and simply die or you play 2 gitaxian with a hand of 2 LEDs waiting for land and you simply won't draw it or that gitaxian should have been a land or a disruption or a moxen or simply what is needed at the proper moment.

If the goal is to thin the deck or to handle scenarios like described above I don't think this worth even you alterate these scenarios you will need to take out cards like ponder or brainstorm but not lands or/and moxen, but if the idea of TES Deck is to exploite A.N. I just simply can't agree, as the changes are not oriented to exploite A.N. even you take out Tendrils instead of Empty, I can agree on Empty base because we can make stronge plays well paired with gitaxian, but gets weaker A.N. I think we are loosing the concept of TES, even you play 3 burning, as Concept you should play 4 burning 3 infernal as Burning in that way can be better than I.T. as A.N. is as you say not the best choice sometimes.

For sure that if you play in a scenario like 2 gitaxian and some fetches and a Delver has attacked you once and you' re at 12 you will prefer to play Empty or PiF instead of A.N. but what I think is that we should not provoke these scenarios.


If you think gitaxian is so good I'll need to play the following:

Instants 13
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual


Sorceries 22
1 Tendrils
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame



Artifacts [12]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal


Lands [13]

1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


The only card I can say I can consider parity is -1 dusruption and -1 A.N. from ols list as again we have 9 Business spells, not counting Tendrils and using 2 ponders as Parity in Business. not sure if this will work. I have never considered gitaxian > ponder.

For sure I'll use 2 Empty in side anyway.

My list is quite different from that one, but maybe that can be a start.
On my list I'm now considering instead of -1 A.N. -1 Dusruption = +2 personal tutor, but Grim Tutor is not as bad as it seems as a 1 of. by the moment I changed to 13 lands 4 moxen 1 tendrils main 3 Silence 2 Orims 3 Duress (1 side) still grim tutor. About Side I 'm thinking to switching to 3 karakas, they win me sooo many games vs sooo many bad pairings 3 abrupt and cosidering 1 Empty more in side.

I tested Gitaxian, I recognice you win with Empty base well paired with gitaxian but I don't think that is the route for TES, I played DDFT and TNT and all the combo in the world and I can say in DDFT is KEY or in TNT or ANT builds but in here in TES I don't think so.

[Bahamuth]

Well now I have somo more time,

It is impossible to know the hand from a random 60, I agree, but I didn't mean this exactly,
For example let's take as example the scenario:
Hand with 1 land and Random 6 starting you:
Regardless of what is playing the opponent I,
- I won't play the land unless 1)I have brainstorm or 2)ponder or 3)another land or 4)have a 1st turn win, this last case is debatable.

This example is barely relevant. Knowing your opponents hand is good if you have to decide on what cards to keep with Ponders/Brainstorms. The cards you need differ completely depending on what your opponents hand is. Often you can see that you cannot win without more disruption, or you'll see that you only need more mana or whatever.

So
I can say even that the numbers of a)lands b) c.moxen and c) Disruption seemed always ok before Gitaxian and the parity concept can ruin scenarios like before exposed as you'll find that your mulligans can get bigger or gitaxian can be countered and simply die or you play 2 gitaxian with a hand of 2 LEDs waiting for land and you simply won't draw it or that gitaxian should have been a land or a disruption or a moxen or simply what is needed at the proper moment.

I think you mean that taking mulligans is more difficult with Probe. This is true, but being able to see your opponents hand any time you see a Probe much outweighs that.

If the goal is to thin the deck or to handle scenarios like described above I don't think this worth even you alterate these scenarios you will need to take out cards like ponder or brainstorm but not lands or/and moxen

Why would I take out cantrips before land/mox? Cantrips improve consistency much more than running more land.

but if the idea of TES Deck is to exploite A.N.

It's not. The idea of TES is to win games. It doesn't matter how you win games.

I just simply can't agree, as the changes are not oriented to exploite A.N. even you take out Tendrils instead of Empty, I can agree on Empty base because we can make stronge plays well paired with gitaxian, but gets weaker A.N.

I can't remember the last time my Ad Nauseam fizzled. You can almost always either win or pass the turn and win next turn.

I think we are loosing the concept of TES,

There is no concept. We want to build the best storm deck.

even you play 3 burning, as Concept you should play 4 burning 3 infernal as Burning in that way can be better than I.T. as A.N. is as you say not the best choice sometimes.

Wish to Tutor is almost always a bad play, and Tutor is so much better than Wish that I will not only run 3 main.

For sure that if you play in a scenario like 2 gitaxian and some fetches and a Delver has attacked you once and you' re at 12 you will prefer to play Empty or PiF instead of A.N. but what I think is that we should not provoke these scenarios.

My list just casts a Probe and sees it can win the game with an EtW. Why would I not do that.

If you think gitaxian is so good I'll need to play the following:

Instants 13
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual


Sorceries 22
1 Tendrils
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame



Artifacts [12]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal


Lands [13]

1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


The only card I can say I can consider parity is -1 dusruption and -1 A.N. from ols list as again we have 9 Business spells, not counting Tendrils and using 2 ponders as Parity in Business. not sure if this will work. I have never considered gitaxian > ponder.

You should obviously be running 4 Ponder and 4 Probe. Both are way too good to cut. I don't understand why you want to run ToA and the 4th Mox so badly. Mox is such a terrible card in multiples (drawing a single one is usually already terrible.)

On my list I'm now considering instead of -1 A.N. -1 Dusruption = +2 personal tutor,

How about you do +2 Ponder instead of +2 Crappy card.

[Pelikanudo]

How about you do +2 Ponder instead of +2 Crappy card.

In resume I can agree, therefore the list agreed will be like yours except:
-1 Empty the warrens = +1 burning w. -Still don't undestand why 3 b.wishes
or like mine proposal but:
+2 Ponder = -1 C.Moxen -1 Tendrils.
No Empty No Tendrils main for first games seem therefore the best option.

Anyway thanks for your support but I'll try other Non Gitaxian TES builds. by the moment testing resulted in (if anyone is interested):

4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Silence
2 Orims Chant
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grim Tutor

Side
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Revoke Existence
1 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Duress

Possible Testing:
- 1 Grim Tutor -2 Orims = +1 Silence +2 Personal Tutor.

[joemauer]

Probe is amazing.

One game my opponent went first, laying an Island and passing the turn. I had a turn one kill that folded to pretty much any kind of permission. I cast probe to see what I could do. Turns out my opponent was playing ANT and had a turn two kill. I promptly won.

The two life is hardly a problem now that the deck plays one Ad Nauseum.

The information Probe gives us is invaluable. With all the card manipulation we have in Brainstorm & Ponder, Probe makes it very clear which cards we need in hand and which ones we need to shuffle away.

Oh and the card boosts our storm count too.

Really what is there not to love about this card?

[Bryant Cook]

Anyway thanks for your support but I'll try other Non Gitaxian TES builds. by the moment testing resulted in (if anyone is interested):

Bahamuth, now do you see why I gave up on helping him? He asks for advice, doesn't listen, then does what he wants anyway. Repeat.

In other news, I picked up a German FFB Tropical and a Japanese Foil Revoke Existence (I still think Hull Breach is probably better) in case they're ever worth playing. I guess the real question is to the ANT players, how has the SB Tropical been for you? I understand that fetching for a green source for Xantid Swarm or Decay is good. But is the additional lands vs. Tempo decks actually noticeable?

[Final Fortune]

Bahamuth, now do you see why I gave up on helping him? He asks for advice, doesn't listen, then does what he wants anyway. Repeat.

In other news, I picked up a German FFB Tropical and a Japanese Foil Revoke Existence (I still think Hull Breach is probably better) in case they're ever worth playing. I guess the real question is to the ANT players, how has the SB Tropical been for you? I understand that fetching for a green source for Xantid Swarm or Decay is good. But is the additional lands vs. Tempo decks actually noticeable?

Not particularly, but I think Tropical Island is probably going to notice it more than ANT considering its a more significant % increase in lands at 12 + 1 as opposed to 15 + 1 and at least all four of your fetchlands can find it compared to only 6 of ours.

[loveisgreen]

Played 20+ games against reanimator over the past couple of days with both reforge and diminishing returns in the board, and found that there is one more corner case benefit to reforge. There was never a game in which I wanted to shuffle his yard back in with a returns, because the time frame in which a monster is actually in the yard is usually either half a turn, or a few seconds. The extra mana was never a concern, and I never actually wished for Returns in any of those games. In one game, I was able to win through Griselbrand without silence because the 2 Force of Will he had already cast stayed in the yard instead of getting shuffled back in, and he didn't see another in the top 14. I realize this isn't going to matter a large percentage of the time, but I think the subtle differences Reforge makes are enough reason to stop playing Returns, regardless of how much Reforge resembles a pokemon card.

[Pelikanudo]

Played 20+ games against reanimator over the past couple of days with both reforge and diminishing returns in the board, and found that there is one more corner case benefit to reforge. There was never a game in which I wanted to shuffle his yard back in with a returns, because the time frame in which a monster is actually in the yard is usually either half a turn, or a few seconds. The extra mana was never a concern, and I never actually wished for Returns in any of those games. In one game, I was able to win through Griselbrand without silence because the 2 Force of Will he had already cast stayed in the yard instead of getting shuffled back in, and he didn't see another in the top 14. I realize this isn't going to matter a large percentage of the time, but I think the subtle differences Reforge makes are enough reason to stop playing Returns, regardless of how much Reforge resembles a pokemon card.

I understand that in 20 games you'll find one very remote possibility (Example:: When someday I draw a full hand of 4 LEDs I 'll reach the conclusion I have played magic enough.. and simply will stop playing magic, maybe some from here have already drew 4 LEDs...) but what I think at its simplests is that
For reanimator is better to have cards in gy than not to have so just because of this so simple reason Diminishing must be superior to Reforge at least vs Reanimator -this can be extrapolable to Dredge and this assuming you won't win this turn, and again 1 mana is a lot of difference.
I have so many reasons to not to play reforge...
1) The most the turns happens the more effective si Diminishng, Reforege not so much as Diminishng
2) The chances of winning because +1 mana are moreless the same as Diminishing percentages counting -1 alnd, simple.
3) A reasoning said is that Reforge is bigger well paired with PiF... Reforge is casted via Burning, next you play Reforge and need to draw extra 1 burning
4) you're surgical/extirpate objetive.
5) Retiring 10 cards I think does not affect.

Regarding thinking on putting 1 land tropical in TES:
1) If playing in side, it is not possible we don't have so much space, if only you play 2 A.Decay, doesn't woth
2) If playing i base, you need more fetches to make it effective
I think +1 city can be the ritgh move. Total 13 (Regardless of playing 3 moxen gitaxian or not)

[lambert101]

I like the +1 City idea. Been gold fishing the following:

4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

1 Empty The Warrens
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Past In Flames
1 Revoke Existence
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Reforge the Soul

It's Bryant's list on the opening page with the small changes in bold.

[Dark Ritual]

Probe is amazing.

One game my opponent went first, laying an Island and passing the turn. I had a turn one kill that folded to pretty much any kind of permission. I cast probe to see what I could do. Turns out my opponent was playing ANT and had a turn two kill. I promptly won.

The two life is hardly a problem now that the deck plays one Ad Nauseum.

The information Probe gives us is invaluable. With all the card manipulation we have in Brainstorm & Ponder, Probe makes it very clear which cards we need in hand and which ones we need to shuffle away.

Oh and the card boosts our storm count too.

Really what is there not to love about this card?

I now maindeck one tropical in ANT. There's a bayou in the board still. Boarding in an extra 1-2 lands against tempo helps a little bit but it doesn't vastly improve the matchup on its own. If you're boarding in trop against tempo thresh it's going to be a wasteable basic island essentially and bayou is a basic swamp as you shouldn't ever bring in decay for tempo unless you're hoping to screw them out of having a clock i.e. you board in abrupt decay as an uncounterable smother that doesn't work on mongoose, then again mongoose is usually pretty slow to kill us either way.

Personal tutor is shit. Remember mystical tutor? We ran 2 before it got banned.

We are here to build the best storm deck Pelikanudo. We aren't here to build Shitlist Long, nausea, IGGy POP!, or solidarity.

Good luck resolving a d. returns against a reanimator player with a fatty in the yard. The only possible way for this to work is for them to be on the draw and for them to go turn 1 careful study pitching fatty. The alternative is for them to be on the play and for you to be able to CAST d.returns on turn 1 and for you to hope they lack daze and FoW. The purpose of dreturns isn't to act as our wishboard graveyard hoser but rather to set us up to win the game the next turn or on the same turn. Sure we use it once in a while to attempt to hose dredge, but that can be terribly risky especially if they have a discard outlet onboard such as PImp as you could potentially lose to them if you pass after letting them draw 7 fresh cards that potentially includes a dredger and breakthrough or any number of things that could automatically win the game for them unless you're able to chant/silence them on upkeep after returns resolved.

Gitaxian probe is insane. +1 storm, free information, and it cantrips. What's not to like? The 2 life isn't much of a drawback at all. Also, legacy is a very diverse format. Knowing what you're playing against is huge. So your opponent leads with turn 1 misty rainforest. That can represent any number of decks from combo, to control, to aggro. Here are the decks that run misty rainforest in legacy right now or at least can off the top of my head:

All forms of BUG
Storm combo
Canadian thresh
Enchantress
Reanimator
Maverick

Go ahead and run less than 4 ponders. You'll lose a lot of games if you don't run the full set of ponders in your maindeck as running less library manipulation makes this deck a lot worse. The worst part? Substituting ponder for personal tutor is incredibly bad because P. Tutor is an incredibly terrible card that should be worth 2 dollars.

[Pelikanudo]

Probe is amazing.

One game my opponent went first, laying an Island and passing the turn. I had a turn one kill that folded to pretty much any kind of permission. I cast probe to see what I could do. Turns out my opponent was playing ANT and had a turn two kill. I promptly won.

The two life is hardly a problem now that the deck plays one Ad Nauseum.

The information Probe gives us is invaluable. With all the card manipulation we have in Brainstorm & Ponder, Probe makes it very clear which cards we need in hand and which ones we need to shuffle away.

Oh and the card boosts our storm count too.

Really what is there not to love about this card?

Lot of things, I'll expose some:

Assuming the best play in TES is Mana, LED, Petal, D.R., I.T., A.N.

1) It takes you 2 life, therefore if you draw, simply one more if you play it for free you're life total will be -4, if you play some more fetch or city, you're life total can oscilate between 16 or 15 from 1st turn. this fact makes match ups like Burn, Goblins and in general Fast Agro and also RUGworse match ups as regardless knowing what the opponent is playing you'll mainly need to go off soon except in RUG, BUT RUG puts you on a fast clock so is not the same to combo at 13 than 17 lifes. This is the main reason.

2) the things substituited in TES were -1 Land, -1 Disruption -1 C.Moxen, -1 A.N.
I can agree on -1 Diruption -1 A.N and maybe -1 C.M BUT never I'll contemplate -1 Land. Parity Concept can not be applyed to -1 Land

3) Incresing the Storm Count affect if you do not play next A.N., if you play ETW, you'll see that for scenarios on which you want to play ETW soon it is better. In This last Case the difference can oscilate between 14 Gobbos and 16in most of these scenarios OR at least you're 99% likely to win, I don't think it is worth, maybe with Empty in Base, but I don't play them in Base.

4) Gitaxian makes you dependant on Siding, A Fact is that Ponder > Gitaxian, and if you put in Therapis you'll take out at least 1 Gitaxian, Fact that is nonsense, If I Would have played Therapyies in side I wouldn't side out any gitaxian as you won't want scenarios on which you do not hit the card. Simple.

5) I don't see therapy neccesary in TES, even now in Abrupt Decay Era.

6) TES is based on Threats more than in manipulation, you've already 8 manipulation effects aren't them enough? The rest of cards are just good cards or simply neccesary cards that you simply need to have in hand and not need to draw to have them in hand

7) I can agree on 2 slots: -1A.N. and -1Disruption and tested 2 Gitaxian and I noticed that Preordain is way better for its purpose, now I'm testing other things.

8) Last because of tiring of giving reasons, I personally just don't need to see the hand of the opponent to win games with TES, so I just don't need a card that makes you draw 1 extra card, counts storm +1, makes loose 2 lifes and see hand of opponent. Simple.

[Final Fortune]

Lot of things, I'll expose some:

Assuming the best play in TES is Mana, LED, Petal, D.R., I.T., A.N.

1) It takes you 2 life, therefore if you draw, simply one more if you play it for free you're life total will be -4, if you play some more fetch or city, you're life total can oscilate between 16 or 15 from 1st turn. this fact makes match ups like Burn, Goblins and in general Fast Agro and also RUGworse match ups as regardless knowing what the opponent is playing you'll mainly need to go off soon except in RUG, BUT RUG puts you on a fast clock so is not the same to combo at 13 than 17 lifes. This is the main reason.

2) the things substituited in TES were -1 Land, -1 Disruption -1 C.Moxen, -1 A.N.
I can agree on -1 Diruption -1 A.N and maybe -1 C.M BUT never I'll contemplate -1 Land. Parity Concept can not be applyed to -1 Land

3) Incresing the Storm Count affect if you do not play next A.N., if you play ETW, you'll see that for scenarios on which you want to play ETW soon it is better. In This last Case the difference can oscilate between 14 Gobbos and 16in most of these scenarios OR at least you're 99% likely to win, I don't think it is worth, maybe with Empty in Base, but I don't play them in Base.

4) Gitaxian makes you dependant on Siding, A Fact is that Ponder > Gitaxian, and if you put in Therapis you'll take out at least 1 Gitaxian, Fact that is nonsense, If I Would have played Therapyies in side I wouldn't side out any gitaxian as you won't want scenarios on which you do not hit the card. Simple.

5) I don't see therapy neccesary in TES, even now in Abrupt Decay Era.

6) TES is based on Threats more than in manipulation, you've already 8 manipulation effects aren't them enough? The rest of cards are just good cards or simply neccesary cards that you simply need to have in hand and not need to draw to have them in hand

7) I can agree on 2 slots: -1A.N. and -1Disruption and tested 2 Gitaxian and I noticed that Preordain is way better for its purpose, now I'm testing other things.

8) Last because of tiring of giving reasons, I personally just don't need to see the hand of the opponent to win games with TES, so I just don't need a card that makes you draw 1 extra card, counts storm +1, makes loose 2 lifes and see hand of opponent. Simple.

If you don't like the card then don't play with the card, it's not essential to the archetype and if you prefer having a higher land count and easier mulligan decisions as opposed to information it's a perfectly reasonable argument. Honestly, the only defining characteristics of TES are Rite of Flame and Chrome Mox, if you just decided to cut Silence for Thought Seize it probably wouldn't matter that much, altho' whether or not it was an optimal decision is debatable.

We don't have to all play the same list, chill out.