2 of the top 3 decks play force of will as a 4 of. Beyond that, RUG and Stoneforge both play other counters that are a pita. When you start cutting chants/duress for IoK, you are weakening yourself to mixes of FoW/Snare/Stifle and the like. Being better against Maverick is fine, but I wouldn't lower my ability to beat FoW game one for it. Blue is still the most popular color in magic.Originally Posted by cash
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
Sure, it seems ok, but you really hurt yourself against the FoW decks that are in fact still around in decent numbers. So long as the maverick matchup is still favorable, I'd rather tune against the decks that interact with us preboard the most, which means duress.
Chant is still pretty useful against the non-blue decks, as chant walking them can let you sculpt a hand they can't interact with. I like it more than duress right now, but still wouldnt cut either of them.-For the chant's. Don't we need to come back to 4 chant effects/4 discards since U is less and less played?
Matt Bevenour in real life
A question to Bryant (which you probably have already answered elsewhere, but I can't find it with search): Is Orim's Chant's kicker really worth making it vulnerable to Leyline of Sanctity and Misdirection? Why? I can see the reason behind splitting 3/2, but I would run Silence as the 3-of.
Yes. Leyline isn't an incredibly popular sideboard choice, neither is Misdirection. While there's plenty of aggro decks running about.
This si what I'm currently doing (mostly for price reasons, but Michael Caffrey is occasionally among the people I test with, and he runs sanctity in UW stoneblade mostly for burn )
Matt Bevenour in real life
Taking TES into Philly tomorrow for a local event. Expecting Maverick + esperblade to be about 40% of the field. The rest will most likely be unnotable with the exception of 3-4 aggro loam that is trending in my area and a couple dredge players.
I tested the inquisition board a couple nights back, and think its pretty decent in the maverick matchup. The postboard matches I lost involved a chrome mox trick ad nausem that flipped into no other mana sources from 17, and a top decked thalia the turn after inquisition. It was noticeably worse against blue though, as blasting through chants is one of the easier ways to stop them from interacting
When is it best to inquisition against maverick? I've been waiting for their turn 2 and doing it the turn before they could cast something, but I got hit by a first turn mom, and a topdecked turn 3 thalia.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Generally speaking, you're doing it right, although casting it turn one on the play certainly has its merits: Enlightened Tutor can't be cast in response, and any cantrip you might have wanted to potentially cast off of one land will be cast with higher value (for instance, if you kept a hand with only one land, Ponder, and Inquisition, and don't draw another land on your subsequent draw step, Inquistion T1 and Ponder T2 for land seems like a better sequencing than the inverse; you can, of course, sit on Inquisition for turn two and hope to cantrip into a land during the same turn if you're a slightly risky feller).
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Top 4'd a 29 person event in Philadelphia today, running Bryant's 75. Redcap's corner is a sweet store by drexel.
Round 1: David with UWb mill?
This is David's first legacy tournament, or close to it. Has expensive cards though. I win the die roll.
G1: He drops a turn 2 howling mine, stifles a fetch land, lets Ad Nausem resolve. I duress with infinite mana floating, see another stifle and force of will. After I see his hand, he scoops.
Board: +3 IoK, out 1 ponder, 1 IT, 1 Chrome mox (Standard blue package)
G2: He plays another turn 2 howling mine, and I ride it to victory after my 2nd chant resolves.
1-0 (2-0 games)
Round 2: Tinac with EsperBlade
Nice guy, apparently knows everyone else from my local store except me :( I lose the roll and...
G1: proceed to mull to 5. I get Inquisitioned, pierced, and eventually clique'd and am a mana short of killing him, since his clock is horrendously slow. Wow that's a lot of cards preboard!
Board: Standard blue package
G2: Sculpt a nice hand with double chant and punch through Ad naus on his turn 2, I go down to 8. Mana leak and pierce can't stop that.
G3: He is able to Slow me down with IoK after my mull to 6, but can't find a win condition. I have 7 lands in play when I silence him on his turn (countered), chant afterwards. He V Cliques with 4 cards in hand in response, I go for it, hard casting Ad naus while he's tapped out. Does he even run force of will? I safely flip from 15 down to 3, he cliques an irrelevant LED, I draw another for turn and play around the Swords to plowshares in his hand.
2-0 (4-1 games)
Rd 3: Joe with GW maverick.
Nice guy, a little scruffy. I win this roll.
G1: Mull to 4 that needs a land to go off (Because this deck is fair). He goes mom, I whiff off my draw, he plays Thalia. Ok.
Board: +4 IoK, +2 ET, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Wipe away, -8 main deck protection
G2: He lands mom and wasteland and some smaller beats, but I diminishing returns with enough floating and it doesn't brick.
G3: He goes land into noble hierarch. I could make 10 goblins and pass, or I could ponder. I hit a chrome mox and make 14 goblins. He boarded out stoneforge and doesn't run batterskull anyway. Man it feels good playing EtW. I miss it.
3-0 (6-2 games)
Double ID into top 8 with Burn and BUG control
Top 8 is burn, maverick, 2 elves, 2 BUG control, Esperblade and TES (me). Matchups favor me heavily.
Top 8: Mark with Burn
He's usually in the top 8 with burn. I lose the roll
G1: Turn one goblin guide, a couple fetches and keldon marauders later, I'm casting Ad nausem... wait... shit... except, I auto pilot and fetch a U sea like a retard. So I ponder and hit the lotus petal that cast the rite of flame I needed anyway. Ad nausem down to 5, can't combo, I go one more card, hit the petal I need. Suck it fireblast.
Board: + 3 IoK, +2 ET, - 5 chants (I think, how would you board)
G2: He plays land go. I inqisition the obvious Pyrostatic pillar he has and cast ad nausem. Go down to 3, but he didnt draw the Fireblast.
4-0-2 (8-2 games)
Top 4: Evan Raisner with combo elves (And I mean turn 2-3 pretty much every time full on combo)
Evan? Why I drove Evan to the tournament and Let him half his sideboard. We agree to split anything either of us wins, as 1st and second are way more than 3rd or 4th. Nice guy. I lose the roll.
G1: I chant him to stop him from actually killing me with my mulligan to 5, and he is happy to just chunk me for 5 a turn. I run out of protection and diminishing returns. with a petal in play, UB floating and no land for turn. It fizzles.
G2: I brainstorm turn one into more right of flames than should be permissible and a second LED. He plays an elf, and I IGG him for exact.
G3: (Punt incoming) Keep a weak 3 land, LED, IT, Ad nausem. He plays elf go, I draw Lotus petal and play land #1. He spits out 3 dudes and swings. I draw brainstorm, and cast it, looking for either LED or dark ritual to go off this turn. I do not find either. Mid brainstorm my hand is: gemstone mine #2-3, Infernal tutor, Lotus petal, Lion's eye diamond, chrome mox, ponder, ponder.
That's a kill. Put back ad naus and ponder, play the artifacts, land-> ponder -> crack LED cast ad naus with 0 floating from 18. But I do not see that line, instead I see the no LED or Dark ritual and pass back with a turn 3 kill. I pay for my mistake and he combo's off into emrakyl. Oops.
Evan ends up losing to BUG control with deeds and counters (never draws a glimpse of nature, poor guy), and we both end up with $115. Should have been first place.
Double post avoidance edit: The Inquisitions are decent. They are fine against blue, but I really would like to find something better against maverick. Darkblast might not be miserable.
Last edited by Tammit67; 04-02-2012 at 07:27 PM.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Hey guys my first posting for a while (and the first on the new thread - yey). I recently took the deck back up again after going to the darkside (Canadian thresh), so I thought i'd celebrate by beasting up a 14 man local tourney. Here is a quick report :). Fairly standard list (ie with IoK) BUT I played a tundra over the 4th mox (sacrilege) and I still have my maindeck empty the warrens over the 2nd Ad.N. I also chose to man up and play grapeshot over my normal pyroclasm off the board. So without further addo...
Rd 1 Stu w/ Burn (I win the roll)
G1 I go off with the goblins for 10 T1 and they JUST manage to race. :)
G2 Apparently, I forgot that pyrostatic pillar was in fact, a card. I turn 1 sculpted and could burn a petal to duress, but I thought nah, better to have the mana up/storm next turn and I get spanked by the pillar for my loss. Ouchy.
G3 I Ad.N turn 1 and get the goods. (I win the roll)
(1-0)
R2 Tom w/ U/B.... tempo I guess Bobs + Snappy + Jace + force (hes all man!)
G1 I have 1 turn Ad.N. with no disruption but play it out into a force :/. I reasoned that if he got the land-drop and thoughsiezed me/had spell pierce up im pretty much dead in the water anyway. That, and im REALLY GREEDY :).
G2 I get 'one of those games' - wastes/spell pierce/clique/bob advantage for him. Im never really in it....
(1-1)
R3 Ryan w/ G/W staxs (I lose the roll. Against stax... :/)
G1 After much bravado about how many T1 trinis hes been getting, he opens with flagstones, mox stoneforge. Fetches batterskull. I sculpt. He lands batterskull. He dies.
G2 He lands a turn 2 choke vs my untapped islandy lands, but I just use them as lotus petals and go off into Ad.N. (Down to 1 life - phew)
(2-1)
R4 Pete w/Elves (I win the roll)
G1 I keep an ok hand but miss on a few cantrips while Peter makes some guys. I decide to go turn 3 Dim. Returns with 1 U 1 B floating, which somehow manages to enable a IGG for the win :). A REALLY convoluted go off though.
G2 He lands a turn 2 Teeg, and has some other dudes too. Which I grapeshot. He makes some guys and I sculpt for a turn or 2. I go off facing down lethal from 7 with a Past in flames. Sweet.
(3-1) Which is enough to go in :)
Top4
Semi's Dave w/Deadguy (I win the roll)
G1 I manage to dodge some discard with brainstorms, and at the same time set up a kill by cantripping into the Ad.N. floating on the top of my library and cracking in an LED.
G2 I play out artifact mana and settle in for a longer game. He finds lots of disruption, and we draw go for a bit (he has no clock to speak of..) I end up winning this with a dimishing returns (having enough mana floating for Ad.N. but I was on 12 life, which is a little low for my tastes...), with him having been damaged by bob a few times. I boarded in bounce (fearing a cannonist or two...), and save an LED from a vindicate with it. Awesomeness.
Final Tom (my Rd. 2 opponent)
G1 We have some pre-game banter about my going of turn 1 last time and if it was a good idea. Then I went off turn 1 (he raised his eyebrows, when I started playing out petals. The goblins bought another one home for me.
G2 I have a very cantrippy hand, so im a bit nervous, but dont want to mull too hard vs a deck that can lay into your hand so effectively. He goes island, I go underground sea, pass (holding up brainstorm). He brainstorms and I brainstorm in response. I see the goblins and leave them on top. He untaps and duresses me (as expected) and sees a hand of rituals. I play out, bait some counters and empty the warrens for 12. they make it. But its close.
Kill summary -
Ad Nauseum - 4
Empty the warrens - 3
Dim. Returns - 2
Past in flames - 1
Questions/comments/better lines to have played always welcome. And a few questions to the community.... :)
1)...Why not the tundra? It was relevant once in the day (fetching white), and didnt seem to impact my Ad.N.s (plenty of turn 1+2 goes off....). its also nice just to play 1 more land. I was never sad to see it, although I did board it out vs aggro when I was boarding chants out... (Im aware that this might well have been done to death somewhere in the other thread...). Ideally, I guess it would be on the board vs tempo/storm mirror, but thats not really going to happen... :)
2)...Goblins wreck tempo. So I think they still warrant the 1-of inclusion maindeck. Ok, ok so they are weak against batterskull. But you can go other paths against aggro, right? :). The thing that drew me to this deck was the ability to choose the right tools for the right job. And removing a key tool vs a big matchup seems wrong to me... You can always board it out for a different engine anyway (IGG/PIF) :). Why so few goblins these days?
3)...The Maverick builds I saw were siding white leylines. It seems to be they do that if they play thalia in the main and no tutor package off the board. So look out! :). Ok, so that wasn't a question.
4)...I won a LOT of dice rolls on the day, and saw quite a few decks with no interactions with me, and so could be really aggressive with starts and mulls. BUT (quick poll) would you go off Turn1 preboard on the play against someone you know to be playing, say team america...
5)...(another poll) What is the lowest life total you would Ad. N. from (having made your land drop for the turn), none floating, 1 LED used. 13 seems to be my limit. A little lower if know I can brainstorm after it...
Thanks Peeps :). Keep using ALL the storm engines. They are all awesome source :)
The Spanish Tunnel King
PS Sorry for the long post!
On the subject of Leyline, I have to disagree with Bryant. It was common at GP Indy, and I expect it to remain popular for some time. Both Maverick and Stoneblade are potentially packing them.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
If they have lethal on board and I was at two life but the only action in my hand was AN, I would still try to find a BS or ponder. What else are you gonna do, scoop em up? I have had success in the situation you mention with 7 life.
The bottom line is the game dictates when you "have" to go for it with AN.
Yeah, for sure sometimes you have to just go for it. I made it from 4 once with Ad.N. by generating enough storm/mana and flipping LED, LED, inf. tutour :). But like I was saying, you can sometimes (usually?) set up the kill you want, with the storm engine you want. So at what life do you think 'instead of going for the Ad.N. from 7, i'll inf. tutour for an LED, so I can BW--> IGG next turn, be on 2 life and hope he doesn't rip a lord to make it lethal'. Or voluntarily chose Dim. Rit. with 1 floating over an Ad.N. with none floating. The maths on Dim. Rit. Seems well understood, but Ad.N. maths is a little harder to work out, and could well be less of a %age chance winning at that time... By the way, Im a little obsessed with Dim. Rit. Its probably still my favourite storm engine in the mix. People always give you that 'you lucky man' look after you do it to them...
The Spanish Tunnel King
I'm not going to do the math, but obviously if you are below the point where AN will draw you less than the 7 cards DR will get you, DR is likely the better option, however its hard to draw clear lines... if you have a burning wish and the mana for DR, you also have IGG, PiF, and EtW available. You really have to take a look at the board state and make a decision.
As for "G1 I have 1 turn Ad.N. with no disruption but play it out into a force :/. I reasoned that if he got the land-drop and thoughsiezed me/had spell pierce up im pretty much dead in the water anyway. That, and im REALLY GREEDY :)." and "BUT (quick poll) would you go off Turn1 preboard on the play against someone you know to be playing XXXXX"
I think you have to look at all the data you have. Does waiting increase or decrease you odds of success? Do you have cantrips to improve your hand, or discard to weaken theirs if you wait a turn? What is their win condition? Do they know what you are playing? If I can't answer any of these questions(or don't have the information to guess) and have a turn one win I always roll the dice(especially if its ritual ritual AN, tossing the hand to LED is obviously riskier).
From 2 life, I would scoop em up (or rather, cast the AN and scoop after seeing if my opponent does anything in response or not, but before the spell actually does anything). The odds of winning are so small they practically even aren't there, and AN gives information to my opponent. From 3 or more life, I would cast the AN.
The information is marginal, you already cast AN, and TES is a common enough deck the list in already well known. Furthermore, if you don't kill yourself immediately you are probably revealing the cards you need to win.
Yeah, but they couldn't tell if I'm playing ANT or TES. Also, even though the list in OP is well known, they couldn't tell if I have modified it or not.
If I don't kill myself immediately, I am revealing lands, petals, LEDs and moxes and up to one card that costs 1. Out of those cards, lands do nothing, moxes just build up storm and at least 1 petal and 2 LEDs or 4 petals and 1 LED are required to win and the one card that costs 1 has to be a Ponder or a Brainstorm and no other cards can be revealed or I'm dead. And the cantrip has to hit a tutor. Okay, I win if that happens. But that isn't going to happen, because every time I reveal a card, there's approximately 50% odds that the card kills me. I'm too lazy to do complicated maths at the moment, but even though we ignore the fact that the 7 cards have to be somewhat specific cards in order to win, there's about 99,22% odds to get killed by Ad Nauseam before drawing 7 cards. And even though I manage to get the right cards in my hand with Ad Nauseam, I still have to find a tutor with Ponder or Brainstorm. Not to mention that if the opponent has anything that ruins my plan, it's ruined and I can't prevent it. I believe that the information given to the opponent is often more relevant to the outcome of the match than this almost nonexistent chance of winning the game. Of course, if your opponent already has the information or if it's likely that he cannot even take use of it, it's the best play to try winning with AN here, and sometimes it is better to not even give information about the AN in your hand - it depends on the situation. But usually I wouldn't reveal my deck.
Someone took Bryant's 75 to SCG Des Moines and placed 11th. Kirby Kaufman. Hopefully him or her rights a report and gives us in-sight to his/her success.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=45373
That's me. On the way home right now. I'll write something up later, but briefly:
Reanimator, 2-1
UR Delver, 2-0
Burn, 1-2
RUG Tempo, 1-2
Burn, 2-0
43 Land, 2-0
12-Post, 2-0
Aggro Loam, 2-0
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
I would express great sympathy for any poor girl that would have been named Kirby and not have commited suicide as soon as they were able.
Fixed.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
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