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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #41
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Not really sure how this compares to the Welder version, since I haven't played that in months, but I enjoy playing my base-blue build if only for the ability to play with Brainstorm and Transmute Artifact. I'm no master with the deck, so the numbers could probably use a bit of tweaking.

    Maindeck:
    3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Metalworker
    4 Wurmcoil Engine
    2 Transmute Artifact
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 Lightning Greaves
    2 Mox Diamond
    3 Mox Opal
    1 Staff of Domination
    2 Voltaic Key
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Island
    4 Seat of the Synod
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Karn Liberated
    3 Brainstorm
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Phyrexian Metamorph
    1 Ponder
    SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
    SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    SB: 2 All Is Dust
    SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
    SB: 3 Trinisphere

  2. #42
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by JadeOberg View Post

    So first off... Faithless Looting is so insane in this deck. It enables so many busted second turn plays. I think three is the right number, because we do get to cast it twice. But if you are not playing this with welder, you are doing it wrong.
    With my testing, I agree that three Faithless Looting is enough. Faithless Looting also helps in finding that Welder in case its not in your opening hand. I suggest that you run more than one Sensei's Divining Top (I currently run two) as Faithless Looting also helps in refreshing SDTs (since the deck runs minimal shuffle effects)

    Lodestone has to be a four of. I have won a lot of games off of two early lodestones just because they never hit their third or fourth land drop in time.
    Yes, I also agree with this. Its unfortunate that a lot of lists on TC decks have cut these bad boys to 3. While they do die to Lightning Bolt, they can be good enough of a beating especially when you get them going on turn one (which is not that hard to pull off with this deck)[/quote]

    Blood moon out of the board is just bonkers. I totally could justify running this in the maindeck, but I feel like game one I just want to cheat out a big guy as fast as I can. About half of my matches I end up bringing in blood moon, maybe more than half. That card just steals games.
    I have actually never tried this before. It sounds plausable (especially that this deck's weakest matchup is blue-based Tempo that runs little to no basics). It also helps the deck's mana denial cause overall.

    I haven't played against any storm combo, I can imagine it being the toughest matchup for this deck, however, playing this deck I never feel like I am beat until the game is over. This deck topdecks extremely well. A very high percentage is going to be a bomb that can take over the game even if I am slightly behind. Making sure I keep extra land or useless accelerators in my hand so that when I do find a faithless looting, I have one or two useless cards to bin in the graveyard.
    Actually, that matchup is a coin flip. Usually whoever starts wins as Storm-based combos can win on turn 1 or 2 (with Duress/Chant back up). If you resolve a Sphere effect early on turn 1 or 2, followed by a threat, you will win that game.

    As for this deck topdecking really well, that is still debatable, even with Faithless Looting. Yes Faithless Looting helps but its still at the bottom of the list when it comes to topdecking in Legacy.

    Phyrexian Metamorph is also just insane in this deck. Metamorphing anything in the deck is a solid play. I have even gone first turn Ancient Tomb> Grim Monolith> Metalworker > go Second turn reveal 5 artifacts make 10 mana> cast metal worker and lightning greaves>make 6 mana > mox opal > blightsteel>tap tomb> metamorph blightsteel. I know this is an extreme example, but metamorph does this on turn two or three with wurmcoil and hellkite and golem as often as I draw it. It may be worth going up to two slots.
    I am currently running two Metamorphs on my list. They are great after turn 2 as they can copy almost anything relevant in the deck. They "snapcast" enters-the-battlefield effects of your artifacts, they can serve as a pseudo-protection to Welders, they kill opposing Legendary creatures/artifacts or they double whatever threat you have.

    This deck just feels so powerful right now. Anyone else have any input on card selection or fresh ideas? I just wanted to share my experience with the deck, and I am having an absolute blast playing this beast.
    The deck is fun but its actually hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by ACME_Myst View Post
    Hey guys, whatsup?

    So, I'm seriously considering getting back into Legacy after a 4 year break from Magic. Having always loved and often played Stax and it's various derivatives, I feel like it would be a really cool deck to pick up to get back into the game. Truth be told, budget concerns are not the least of my reasons, but having never played with Metalworker and Grim Monolith in this format, I'd like to see how that plays out.
    Anyway, not really having a team to seriously playtest with anymore, I'm turning to The Source to get some feedback on the list I'm working on.
    Good to have you here as well. Any discussions that will propel this deck into a DTB is always welcome.

    - 22 lands is about 4-6 more than I've seen in most other lists. My reasoning was that
    a) In my (limited) experience, (Worker) MUD has a highly volatile manabase. Which is to say, it's super explosive, but equally fragile. Because I don't want to scoop to opposing Wasteland + counter on Metalworker, a more stable manabase seems really good.
    Yes, the deck's mana production falters under an active Null Rod/Stony Silence (because of artifact acceleration) and a well-timed Wasteland but I found in my experience that running 18 lands is the way to go. I find that having too much lands can suck as you don't want to topdeck enough lands when you want to resolve a sphere effect or a threat at the same time, you don't want to lose to a Null Rod.

    Having 22 lands sounds ideal but in a deck that runs minimal deck manipulation/draw, its hard to avoid unnecessary lands (especially that this deck doesn't run Fetchlands). Arguably, you can still run 22 lands as long as you pair those basic Mountains with the proper Fetchlands. Though in doing so, you add more damage to yourself in addition of what Ancient Tomb already gives you (not to mention that surprise Price of Progress)

    b) I hate forced mulligans because of manascrew. Contrariwise, it appears hard to be flooded in a deck with such high CMC cards.
    In contrary, having flooded with no threat also sucks and should be mulliganed. Like what I said, I believe 18 is the right number so far (you also run Crucible)

    c) Half of your lands blow themselves up or get eaten by Welder and/or Forgemaster, and finally..
    While you can't control City of Traitor's trigger, you can choose whether of not you want to use your artifact lands as Welder/Forgemaster fodders. Sometimes you'd wish you rather had those artifacts instead of lands.

    And on your list, Crucible is there to help with City of Traitor's drawback.

    - .. neither Mox Opal nor Lotus Petal seems to really work for me. Opal is not proper acceleration, as it's virtually impossible to be metalcraft on turn 1 or 2, where it seems most useful. Petal is, obviously, but it's neither a persistent manasource nor really a target for Welder and Forgemaster.
    Opal isn't meant to be an acceleration, rather an additional land drop that doesn't blow up City of Traitors, produces red (and blue if needed) mana and a fodder to Welder/Forgemaster or fuel to Metalworker. Being an acceleration is a bonus for Opal (when paired with artifact lands and/or Lotus Petal in the early turns)

    Personally, for me, Petals are there to help with turns 1-2, nothing more. A turn 1 Metalworker that is unanswered will win you games 95% of the time. Having Petals under an active Tangle Wire (which I also run) means that you can tap them without tapping relevant pieces such as a threat or permanents that produce more than one mana. Petals can also act as a Welder enabler as casting it of 0 and switching it with something relevant from the yard is never a bad trade off. A Petal in the yard help protect (or recycle) artifacts on the field with an active Welder. An example would be in the early turn (which for the most part you will have zero artifacts in you graveyard), you can use Welder to 'untap' a used Monolith or 'flicker' a Tangle Wire by playing tricks with that sacrificed Petal.

    Worse comes to worst, a Petal in the yard helps Welder gain: "Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool"


    - 3 Crucible seems really good, both to stabilize the manabase further and to do nasty trick with Welders and Wastelands.
    Personally I don't run them but I think 2 should be enough as they're abilities don't really stack up. Having multiples of them doesn't add up.

    - I'm running 4 Hellkite and have cut Wurmcoil Engine entirely. The reasoning here is that
    a) I'm severely lacking in board control, and this should remedy that somewhat.
    b) Because I'm trying to win by turning big dudes sideways, evasion seems really good.
    c) More board control synergizes better with my Tangle Wires and LD.
    d) Minor point, but it's Firebreath acts like a useful manasink.
    All points seem plausable but I wouldn't disregard Wurmcoil just like that.

    e) The above points outweigh both the increased synergy between Wurmcoil and Welder/Forgemaster, and the Wurm's lifelink ability.
    Actually, Wurmcoil helps that it turns Welder's/Forgemaster's drawback into an advantage. Also, outside of exile effects, its harder to get rid of Wurmcoil (or its leftovers)

    And sometimes, Wurmcoil's lifelink ability is relevant as you don't want to die to your own Ancient Tomb (against aggro, it happens).

    Ever thought of a 2/2 or 2/3 split?

    - 4 Tangle Wire synergize with the overall LD plan, are insane with an active Welder, and just generally provide Time Walks all around.
    Yes. Not going to argue with that. An early threat followed by Tangle Wire will end games with no problem. Though I have cut them down to three to make room for threats.

    - Only 2 bombs/dedicated Forgemaster targets, mostly to keep the amount of dead draws to a minimum. Of the two, Sundering Titan provides LD and a great body, while Mindslaver provides Time Walks at worst, an alternative wincondition at best, and is generally backbreaking against both combo and control.
    I run two as well (Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah).

    I think STitan is there as a universal target. Its just a beating when you get it on the field with an early active Forgemaster.

    As for Mindslaver, I never got it going. Maybe the reason is that whenever I get an active Forgemaster going, I always seem to not have that 4 mana needed for it. At least with Spine, I can blow up things right away, especially those that need to be answered.

    - I would love to find room for Chalice, Phyrexian Metamorph, Grim Poppet, Spine of Ish Sah, Batterskull and tbh also Wurmcoils, but the list feels really tight as is.
    I run Chalice of the Void from the Side (since having Welder and Faithless Looting would be anti-synergistic). They usually go in against Tempo/Control (where Welder will get removed or countered right away) and Storm-based Combo (where they can Storm faster than you get Welder active).

    I would cut a Crucible and Tangle Wire for two Phyrexian Metamorph. That card is just underrated.

    As for Grim Poppet, Most of your threats outclass a lot of weenies in Legacy. Why?

    Spine of Ish Sah is more of a preference. So are Batterskull. But honestly, Batterskulls for Wurmcoils aint so bad. The fact that they have/give vigilance means there will be a greater life swing with that lifelink and that is very relevant against any deck that tries to defeat you by having your life to zero.

    - I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?
    I have a problem with this. It makes the deck more inconsistent. While its more explosive, it becomes more mulligan dependent.

    - [I'm being ninja'd by JadeOberg as I'm typing] Blood Moon seems really good in a deck like this, but I feel might be better off in a more Stax-like build.
    Personally, I think Blood Moon needs more testing. I am also gonna throw Chaos Warp in there as well as cards that need to be tested.

    - Staff of Domination seems really win-more. If you have an active Metalworker and Kuldotha to find the Staff, along with three artifacts in hand, you should be winning anyway. I see no reason to run potentially dead, conditional cards.
    I agree. Also, Staff of Domination (with an active Metalworker) will only win you game if you have both of them active on turns 2-3. After that, your hand will not have enough artifacts to fuel Metalworker

    - Blightsteel Colossus also seems really win-more, as he's a bitch to hardcast, the poison doesn't work very well with the deck's main route to victory which is damage dealing, and again, active Kuldotha (+ Greaves) should let you win with less conditional cards.
    A lot will argue against that but I am on your side on this one. While Blightsteel Colossus can win you games from nowhere under the right circumstances, outside of Forgemaster or absurb mana, it doesn't have any synergy with the deck (especially when you can't cheat it onto the field with a Welder)

    - Myr Battlesphere hasn't been as insane as I thought he was, but again this is from very limited testing.
    I used to run it but due to a tight list, I have eventually cut it.

    - Overall, I feel the deck would improve in both consistency and stability by moving away from utility-oriented combo-esque builds, towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control style version.
    Needs more testing as the combo-feel to it is the reason why you can pull off win from nowhere and the reason why to play. I could be wrong, hence more testing. But how would you turn this into a tempo-oriented deck? Care to explain what you mean by this?

    TL;DR: I'm trying to make this deck slightly less explosive, in return for increased consistency and stability. Thoughts?
    Ever tried the Stompy Version? (Maindeck Chalice, no Welder/Faithless Looting). It lacks tricks but it will consistently lock opponents. Also, it compliments the 4 Hellkite build. For the most part, they don't run combos such as Forgemaster-based.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kellyx View Post
    About cruciable/wastelands.This deck is too mana hungry.Most time i just dont dare to use wasteland besides using it as a mana source.Im thinking about switching this pack to 2 darksteel citadel+2 utility lands+2 blood moons.And changing 2 mox diamond to 2xlotus petal.
    But for those 2 Utility Lands, I would use Wasteland as they can get rid of relevant lands against us, from Tower of Magistrate to Maze of Ith.

    I have extensively tested Mox Diamonds and overall have cut them to Lotus Petal. The additional cost of Diamonds is just to much for a mana-hungry deck that runs under 21 lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by JadeOberg View Post
    I definitely agree about the wasteland/crucible as well and cannot see the value in running them in this deck. Mox Diamond is not as good as Petal as well if you are dropping the land count.

    Seems like we are coming to similar conclusions
    Ditto.


    Quote Originally Posted by Undomian View Post
    Not really sure how this compares to the Welder version, since I haven't played that in months, but I enjoy playing my base-blue build if only for the ability to play with Brainstorm and Transmute Artifact. I'm no master with the deck, so the numbers could probably use a bit of tweaking.

    [spoiler]
    Maindeck:
    3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Metalworker
    4 Wurmcoil Engine
    2 Transmute Artifact
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 Lightning Greaves
    2 Mox Diamond
    3 Mox Opal
    1 Staff of Domination
    2 Voltaic Key
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Island
    4 Seat of the Synod
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Karn Liberated
    3 Brainstorm
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Phyrexian Metamorph
    1 Ponder
    SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
    SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    SB: 2 All Is Dust
    SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
    SB: 3 Trinisphere[/spoiler]
    Alright, a couple of questions. I know you are running Brainstorm but do you really think your Mox Diamonds can be supported by 15 lands?

    And with only 11 blue sources (5 of which are conditional), how can you pull off the double blue requirement of Transmute Artifact?

    I'm not saying its not plausable but I would cut Forgemaster if you want to go the Transmute way. Hell with Brainstorm, you might even abuse Temporal Mastery and take advantage of large swings this deck is capable of doing. I would use Master Transmuter as a means to cheat artifacts onto the field, as well as to provide tricks (ever tried flickering Sundering Titan on and off the field?)
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Hey Rudy, welcome to The Source, where everyone is an expert on cheating, game design, economics, personal finance, self defense, statistics, and is generally smarter and better than you. Enjoy your stay, and be sure to stop by our Banlist thread for our perennial discussion of how Brainstorm is ruining the format but Survival can fix it.

  3. #43
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    Alright, a couple of questions. I know you are running Brainstorm but do you really think your Mox Diamonds can be supported by 15 lands?

    And with only 11 blue sources (5 of which are conditional), how can you pull off the double blue requirement of Transmute Artifact?

    I'm not saying its not plausable but I would cut Forgemaster if you want to go the Transmute way. Hell with Brainstorm, you might even abuse Temporal Mastery and take advantage of large swings this deck is capable of doing. I would use Master Transmuter as a means to cheat artifacts onto the field, as well as to provide tricks (ever tried flickering Sundering Titan on and off the field?)
    Its 19 lands; I just now noticed that the formatting Cockatrice used when I copied that put things way out of order. That said, while I do feel that even 19 lands may be too few to support the 2 diamonds, I really think their permanence is necessary, especially since I can put them back with Brainstorm if I need to.

    As for Master Transmuter, while I have played around with the idea at least in my mind, I can't seem to justify cutting a threat for it. It seems that even if I did manage to make it work, it would be at least a turn too slow. I'll try it sometime though, never hurts to test.

  4. #44
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    Yes, the deck's mana production falters under an active Null Rod/Stony Silence (because of artifact acceleration) and a well-timed Wasteland but I found in my experience that running 18 lands is the way to go. I find that having too much lands can suck as you don't want to topdeck enough lands when you want to resolve a sphere effect or a threat at the same time, you don't want to lose to a Null Rod.
    Are you advocating 18 lands including Wastelands? This seems to weaken the manabase much further, appearing to lead either to colorscrew or lack of artifact lands, depending on how you work it.
    I'm not sure if the additional 4 lands would dilute the deck's threat density to problematic levels, especially if they're utility based (so, 18 mana producers + 4 Wastes).

    Having 22 lands sounds ideal but in a deck that runs minimal deck manipulation/draw, its hard to avoid unnecessary lands (especially that this deck doesn't run Fetchlands). Arguably, you can still run 22 lands as long as you pair those basic Mountains with the proper Fetchlands. Though in doing so, you add more damage to yourself in addition of what Ancient Tomb already gives you (not to mention that surprise Price of Progress)
    I'm not sure how running fetches would validate upping the land count? I've thought about running them, especially since they are nice with Crucible out. However, they would open us up to Stifle on our manabase, which would probably weaken the U-based tempo matchups further. I can also see how the lifeloss would add up even further, and agree this seems like a bad idea. Furthermore, I cannot find any slots in the landbase that would seem justified to cut, as all 8 sol-lands are required, I don't want to decrease the artifact land count, Wastelands appear to provide better utility, and dropping basics would, well, make the (recurrent) fetches seem rather useless.

    In contrary, having flooded with no threat also sucks and should be mulliganed. Like what I said, I believe 18 is the right number so far (you also run Crucible)
    Yes, this makes sense. But again, I hardly feel the additional 4 lands would dilute the deck that much, whereas I think early-game manascrew should be avoided at all costs.

    While you can't control City of Traitor's trigger, you can choose whether of not you want to use your artifact lands as Welder/Forgemaster fodders. Sometimes you'd wish you rather had those artifacts instead of lands.

    And on your list, Crucible is there to help with City of Traitor's drawback.
    Yes, I guess sometimes I will. I'm trying to improve on the averages however, not so much on the fringe cases. Welding/saccing manaproducing artifacts over artifact lands would have the same impact on your on-board manabase, and either way, you'd be doing that to exchange manadevelopment for threat development.
    I'm merely argueing that given this plan, it might be a good idea to increase the chances to be able to redevelop afterwards.

    Opal isn't meant to be an acceleration, rather an additional land drop that doesn't blow up City of Traitors, produces red (and blue if needed) mana and a fodder to Welder/Forgemaster or fuel to Metalworker. Being an acceleration is a bonus for Opal (when paired with artifact lands and/or Lotus Petal in the early turns)
    This seems to make sense, and is actually a perspective that I hadn't considered. However, my major objective would still be that you need to have already developed your board for it to become active, making it unreliable as a source of (red) mana, especially in the early game.

    Personally, for me, Petals are there to help with turns 1-2, nothing more. A turn 1 Metalworker that is unanswered will win you games 95% of the time.
    Which would require you to actually have the Petal on turn 1-2. How many are you running? Do you ever find it problematic to exchange mid-game stability for early-game explosiveness, especially in a field with as much permission as this?

    Having Petals under an active Tangle Wire (which I also run) means that you can tap them without tapping relevant pieces such as a threat or permanents that produce more than one mana. Petals can also act as a Welder enabler as casting it of 0 and switching it with something relevant from the yard is never a bad trade off. A Petal in the yard help protect (or recycle) artifacts on the field with an active Welder. An example would be in the early turn (which for the most part you will have zero artifacts in you graveyard), you can use Welder to 'untap' a used Monolith or 'flicker' a Tangle Wire by playing tricks with that sacrificed Petal.

    Worse comes to worst, a Petal in the yard helps Welder gain: "Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool"
    While I agree, I do feel these arguments are minor points at best. Regarding Petal+Welder 'flickering' on Monolith and especially Wire - it's a good play, but requires two turns to pull off, which means that your Welders are now not functioning as protection or Looting enabler. It's useful, but I'm not sure if it's an overwhelmingly strong argument in favor of Petal.

    I'm going to pull this up higher into the post, since I'm going to want to refer to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by ACME_Myst
    - I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?
    I have a problem with this. It makes the deck more inconsistent. While its more explosive, it becomes more mulligan dependent.
    Moving on..

    Personally I don't run them but I think 2 should be enough as they're abilities don't really stack up. Having multiples of them doesn't add up.
    I know, but you really want to see one. It comboes with City of Traitors, Wasteland, Welder, Forgemaster, Faithless Looting, and opposing denial. You're correct that multiples are generally useless, barring fringe arguments on it being Welder/Forgemaster/Metalworker/Looting food. Hence, 3 instead of 4. Also, no 2-offs.

    All points seem plausable but I wouldn't disregard Wurmcoil just like that.
    I'm not ("just" disregarding it). It's just that I feel these points make a convincing argument of playing Hellkite over Wurmcoil.

    Actually, Wurmcoil helps that it turns Welder's/Forgemaster's drawback into an advantage. Also, outside of exile effects, its harder to get rid of Wurmcoil (or its leftovers)

    And sometimes, Wurmcoil's lifelink ability is relevant as you don't want to die to your own Ancient Tomb (against aggro, it happens).
    This is what I'm saying. I feel the arguments in favor of Hellkite still outweigh these points though, although I agree that my build's current lack of Lifelink might be somewhat problematic.

    Ever thought of a 2/2 or 2/3 split?
    I have. Then I remembered I don't think running 2-offs is all that good, when one is aiming to make the deck more consistent.
    Sarcasm aside, I suggested a couple of post up to run a 3/1 split of Hellkite and Batterskull, as I feel the latter provides greater utility than Wurmcoil, while this configuration would keep Hellkite's permission and evasion on one on my major beatsticks. Thoughts?

    Yes. Not going to argue with that. An early threat followed by Tangle Wire will end games with no problem. Though I have cut them down to three to make room for threats.
    Agreed. I can see going down to three, but I'm not sure how we're lacking in threat density. I feel being able to more consistently lock up the board after dropping a beatstick is definitely worth running the full set.

    I run two as well (Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah).

    I think STitan is there as a universal target. Its just a beating when you get it on the field with an early active Forgemaster.
    Agreed.

    As for Mindslaver, I never got it going. Maybe the reason is that whenever I get an active Forgemaster going, I always seem to not have that 4 mana needed for it.
    This is the point I'm trying to get across. The default manabase is very explosive, but it just doesn't seem to survive into the mid-game to keep reliably dropping threats. If you don't have 4 mana for Mindslaver, I think you also don't have 4 mana to drop even the cheapest of your other threats.

    At least with Spine, I can blow up things right away, especially those that need to be answered.
    I know, I've also been testing with it, and it appeared somewhat useful as a catch-all "oh-shit" button. I'm not personally convinced though, but it may be worth running if you lack removal in the form of 3-4 Hellkites.

    I run Chalice of the Void from the Side (since having Welder and Faithless Looting would be anti-synergistic). They usually go in against Tempo/Control (where Welder will get removed or countered right away) and Storm-based Combo (where they can Storm faster than you get Welder active).
    Yes, I'm very much planning to do that also.

    I would cut a Crucible and Tangle Wire for two Phyrexian Metamorph. That card is just underrated.
    That would drop me to two Crucible and two Metamorph. I thought we went over this already? I agree that the Metamorph is busted though.

    As for Grim Poppet, Most of your threats outclass a lot of weenies in Legacy. Why?
    Well, it's not Grim Poppet specifically, but I'd like something that can machinegun utility-critters/hatebears on the other side of the table. I liked the OP's arguments of it in favor of Triskelion.

    Spine of Ish Sah is more of a preference. So are Batterskull. But honestly, Batterskulls for Wurmcoils aint so bad. The fact that they have/give vigilance means there will be a greater life swing with that lifelink and that is very relevant against any deck that tries to defeat you by having your life to zero.
    See my earlier question about the 3/1 split between Hellkite and Batterskull.

    Personally, I think Blood Moon needs more testing. I am also gonna throw Chaos Warp in there as well as cards that need to be tested.
    Well, I agree on Blood Moon, but feel that if you're going to be running it in a Stompy-esque build, it would be better in a deck less centered on Metalworker and Welders (i.e., something like the old DragonStompy builds).

    Also, Chaos Warp? Really? What am I missing here?

    Needs more testing as the combo-feel to it is the reason why you can pull off win from nowhere and the reason why to play. I could be wrong, hence more testing. But how would you turn this into a tempo-oriented deck? Care to explain what you mean by this?
    Well, I'm not advocating we drop the ability to randomly pull wins out of nowhere, as the Metalworker/Welder/Forgemaster engines more or less take care of that anyway. It was more or less meant as a one-line summary to the above points, expressed in terms of overall deck strategy.
    To put it bluntly - moving away from the utility oriented combo-esque builds by dropping the 5/6-ish Forgemaster targets and stabilizing the manabase to perform better into the midgame and in the face of permission. Move towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control deck by running 4 Wasteland (along with Crucibles to recur them), running the full 4 Tangle Wires to maximize on Time Walks and tie down the opponent further in the face of Wastes and Spheres-on-bodies, and increasing the amount of permission that is active while beating face by running 3-4 Hellkite.

    Ever tried the Stompy Version? (Maindeck Chalice, no Welder/Faithless Looting). It lacks tricks but it will consistently lock opponents. Also, it compliments the 4 Hellkite build. For the most part, they don't run combos such as Forgemaster-based.
    Well, I'm familiar with the old DragonStompy builds. It does however sound like you'd be trading speed for more board-control/permission, at which point I'd be wondering why you wouldn't want to go all the way and just run Stax? If full lockdown is your main target, actual winconditions sort of become superfluous, no?

  5. #45
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ACME_Myst View Post
    Are you advocating 18 lands including Wastelands? This seems to weaken the manabase much further, appearing to lead either to colorscrew or lack of artifact lands, depending on how you work it.
    I'm not sure if the additional 4 lands would dilute the deck's threat density to problematic levels, especially if they're utility based (so, 18 mana producers + 4 Wastes).
    Personally, I have minimized my artifact land count to two. Its debatable but I didn't want my land base to be a dog to Null Rod, when it's already a beating when my opponent gets multiple Wastelands on me.

    As for Wasteland, I would actually only use it against lands that needed to be dealt with. If I have already established a threat, then I freely use them, kinda like a Time Walk (like the way I would do with Tangle Wire)


    I'm not sure how running fetches would validate upping the land count? I've thought about running them, especially since they are nice with Crucible out. However, they would open us up to Stifle on our manabase, which would probably weaken the U-based tempo matchups further. I can also see how the lifeloss would add up even further, and agree this seems like a bad idea. Furthermore, I cannot find any slots in the landbase that would seem justified to cut, as all 8 sol-lands are required, I don't want to decrease the artifact land count, Wastelands appear to provide better utility, and dropping basics would, well, make the (recurrent) fetches seem rather useless.
    If you're comfortable with the current 22 land set up, I am not going to argue. There are Stompy build that do run 22 lands, those the reason why I get away with 18 lands is because outside of Metalworker, I also utilize Faithless Looting + Goblin Welder to cheat artifacts onto the field.


    This seems to make sense, and is actually a perspective that I hadn't considered. However, my major objective would still be that you need to have already developed your board for it to become active, making it unreliable as a source of (red) mana, especially in the early game.
    I never had a problem reaching Metalcraft with Mox Opal after turn 2

    Which would require you to actually have the Petal on turn 1-2. How many are you running? Do you ever find it problematic to exchange mid-game stability for early-game explosiveness, especially in a field with as much permission as this?
    I run 4 Petals. I just rely on the early-game explosiveness followed by sphere/lock effects to win the game right away, kinda like a combo deck. The strategy is great against Fair, slower control decks and fast combo decks. I do admit that its a dog to permission and I try to ride it out with Welder everytime.

    Like what I mentioned, if you're looking for mid-game stability, you might want to look to the Stompy version of MUD.

    I know, but you really want to see one. It comboes with City of Traitors, Wasteland, Welder, Forgemaster, Faithless Looting, and opposing denial. You're correct that multiples are generally useless, barring fringe arguments on it being Welder/Forgemaster/Metalworker/Looting food. Hence, 3 instead of 4. Also, no 2-offs.
    I have. Then I remembered I don't think running 2-offs is all that good, when one is aiming to make the deck more consistent.
    Sarcasm aside, I suggested a couple of post up to run a 3/1 split of Hellkite and Batterskull, as I feel the latter provides greater utility than Wurmcoil, while this configuration would keep Hellkite's permission and evasion on one on my major beatsticks. Thoughts?
    That would drop me to two Crucible and two Metamorph. I thought we went over this already? I agree that the Metamorph is busted though.
    These two-offs.

    I know its contradictory to what I said earlier but let me explain.

    The primary role of both Wurmcoil and Hellkite is being that robot that could lay down the beating by turn 2-3. The utility that comes with it is just cake. Actually, it all depends on how you want your beater. Having them on a 2/2 or a 2/3 split doesn't mean you're gonna rely toolboxing them. Its just a variation of beaters that does the same thing. You're really running a full playset of primary beaters that just happen to have different attachments to them.

    As for Crucible, you are right that they can serve as a fodder in multiples. Its just that I rarely rely on them to do what they're supposed to do. Hell, I've actually cut them off my list as they don't help with what I want to do with the deck, which is lay down an early threat by either mana-flooding the board by the early turns and protect that threat (with either Welder, Sphere/Lock Effects or simply with another beater).

    As for Metamorph, as good as it is, I hate seeing in my opening hand, hence only two. Metamorph is just a 'protection' for the dumb beater I have on the field. Though have you ever Metamorph another Welder on the field. You can literally go crazy with it with all the interactions you can pull off of it.


    Agreed. I can see going down to three, but I'm not sure how we're lacking in threat density. I feel being able to more consistently lock up the board after dropping a beatstick is definitely worth running the full set.
    Get that beater beating on your opponent at all cost before your opponent stabilizes. That's why I keep saying the threat density is lacking. Though if you feel that way with Tangle Wire, I won't argue with your set up. After all, if we are going to run the deck in a different principle, then I can't force my playstyle to you.


    This is the point I'm trying to get across. The default manabase is very explosive, but it just doesn't seem to survive into the mid-game to keep reliably dropping threats. If you don't have 4 mana for Mindslaver, I think you also don't have 4 mana to drop even the cheapest of your other threats.
    I think I am doing Mindslaver wrong actually. I try to make it work in the early game where its supposed to be for the mid/late game. Then again, I am going out of my comfort style. If it works for you, I will not make you stop. After all the point of this thread is to improve the deck based on what meta you have as well as your playstyle.

    I know, I've also been testing with it, and it appeared somewhat useful as a catch-all "oh-shit" button. I'm not personally convinced though, but it may be worth running if you lack removal in the form of 3-4 Hellkites.
    Actually, the only reason I play it is because of Null Rod and Humilty which stops Hellkite. Though I think it doesn't really help because that also stops Forgemaster :(.

    Still, I don't mind that pinpoint removal it provides if needed.


    [quote]Well, I agree on Blood Moon, but feel that if you're going to be running it in a Stompy-esque build, it would be better in a deck less centered on Metalworker and Welders (i.e., something like the old DragonStompy builds).

    Also, Chaos Warp? Really? What am I missing here?[quote]

    I was thinking of it as a catch all removal instead of Spine. But then the 'random' clause of it is too much to ignore. It is also the reason why I am still iffy with Gamble

    Then again, it does deserve testing. Maybe its the hidden gem this deck needs.

    Well, I'm not advocating we drop the ability to randomly pull wins out of nowhere, as the Metalworker/Welder/Forgemaster engines more or less take care of that anyway. It was more or less meant as a one-line summary to the above points, expressed in terms of overall deck strategy.
    To put it bluntly - moving away from the utility oriented combo-esque builds by dropping the 5/6-ish Forgemaster targets and stabilizing the manabase to perform better into the midgame and in the face of permission. Move towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control deck by running 4 Wasteland (along with Crucibles to recur them), running the full 4 Tangle Wires to maximize on Time Walks and tie down the opponent further in the face of Wastes and Spheres-on-bodies, and increasing the amount of permission that is active while beating face by running 3-4 Hellkite.
    I see what your saying. Having that overlapping denial would actually be a good development for the deck. Having a beater on the field is never an issue, its the means of protecting it. If you can protect it by simply stopping your opponent from doing anything, then why not?


    Well, I'm familiar with the old DragonStompy builds. It does however sound like you'd be trading speed for more board-control/permission, at which point I'd be wondering why you wouldn't want to go all the way and just run Stax? If full lockdown is your main target, actual winconditions sort of become superfluous, no?
    Actually, I mean MUD Stompy builds. Theyre essentially like DragonStompy but instead of running red, it runs more acceleration and has a better creature composition.

    I am actually meaning on having more than one Hellkite. I have previously cut Hellkites in favor of Wurmcoils because of Burn and other non-permanent based damage decks. I will reconsider the mentioned setup you had above.

    Also, to add to Wasteland, ever considered running Ghost Quarter? I have pulled off Strip Mines off of that card as a lot of decks run 1-3 basics. I remember playing a game against a control deck. He fetched up an Island in fear of Wasteland and when I Ghost Quartered his land, he simply cant didn't have that second basic land.

    Ghost Quarter can also act as a pseudo-fetchland if you need that red mana source instead of that Ancient Tomb.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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  6. #46

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    @ nameless one

    what does your current decklist look like? i'm curious as to what you're cutting to fit in the tangle wires.

    edit

    oops.. didn't realize you had posted it in the primer.

  7. #47
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    @(nameless one)
    I'm rather busy today, will get back sometime tonight with a complete reply to your last post.

    Meanwhile..
    [SPOILER ALERT]
    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...3&d=1334460153
    [/SPOILER ALERT]

    Do we want this as a 3-off or something? The discard seems useable with Welder, and the effect is insane with an active Metalworker on the table. I'm sure it's going to be even more breakable in dedicated combo decks, but I think we can use it as we can probably reliably support the 5 mana, even though RR might be a bit problematic.

    Thoughts?

  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ACME_Myst View Post
    @(nameless one)
    I'm rather busy today, will get back sometime tonight with a complete reply to your last post.

    Meanwhile..
    [SPOILER ALERT]
    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...3&d=1334460153
    [/SPOILER ALERT]

    Do we want this as a 3-off or something? The discard seems useable with Welder, and the effect is insane with an active Metalworker on the table. I'm sure it's going to be even more breakable in dedicated combo decks, but I think we can use it as we can probably reliably support the 5 mana, even though RR might be a bit problematic.

    Thoughts?
    I saw it and here's my response:

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    They need to pull of a miracle to cast something that costs 5.

    On the other hand, all this time I'm wishing Memory Jar was unbanned for MUD, I think this can be a good alternative.

    Memory Jar:

    Artifact that can be Welded back.
    Colorless
    Can be saved for later

    Miracle Wheel:

    'Legal' in Legacy
    Also costs 5 and if you're lucky 2 (though double red could be too much)
    Will do the same thing I want with Jar.
    The double red is the hardest part but pulling off the Miracle shouldn't be that bad. I already run SDT to fix my draws. And the deck often goes to topdeck mode by turn 3. And theoretically, that card is only good after you've almost emptied your hand.

    I'm definitely testing it. On my list, I am willing to cut Forgemaster for it (for now).
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    Hey Rudy, welcome to The Source, where everyone is an expert on cheating, game design, economics, personal finance, self defense, statistics, and is generally smarter and better than you. Enjoy your stay, and be sure to stop by our Banlist thread for our perennial discussion of how Brainstorm is ruining the format but Survival can fix it.

  9. #49
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one)
    If you're comfortable with the current 22 land set up, I am not going to argue. There are Stompy build that do run 22 lands, those the reason why I get away with 18 lands is because outside of Metalworker, I also utilize Faithless Looting + Goblin Welder to cheat artifacts onto the field.
    Like what I mentioned, if you're looking for mid-game stability, you might want to look to the Stompy version of MUD.
    Actually, I mean MUD Stompy builds. Theyre essentially like DragonStompy but instead of running red, it runs more acceleration and has a better creature composition.
    While I'm not really out to argue for the sake of argueing, I do feel that a careful analysis of the various arguments and lines of reasoning could help improve both the deck and our (my) understanding of it in general. I too feel that Welder, and Looting to a lesser extent, are overall too powerful to warrant going monobrown. I do not, however, feel this in itself invalidates the argument for attempting to build a more stable manabase.
    So, I hope you don't mind if I'm going to at least spend one more post on this topic.

    Regarding our manabases, I also noticed after my second to last post that your list is up in the OP, so I'm sorry for not looking it up.

    This makes is somewhat easier to analyse. We seem to agree on the below base:

    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    4x Wasteland
    2x Great Furnace
    2x Mountain

    4x Grim Monolith
    Whereas we differ on the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one)
    +2x Ghost Quarter

    +4x Lotus Petal
    +2x Mox Opal
    Quote Originally Posted by ACME_Myst
    +2 Great Furnace
    +2 Darksteel Citadel
    +2 Mountain

    +3 Crucible of Worlds
    It follows that my list only runs 1 manasource more than yours, counting Crucible of Worlds, which is debatable but let's keep it there for now. My point being that the before mentioned threat dilution doesn't sound like a valid argument for running less lands if you need to compensate through Petals and Opals.

    Personally, I have minimized my artifact land count to two. Its debatable but I didn't want my land base to be a dog to Null Rod, when it's already a beating when my opponent gets multiple Wastelands on me.
    I have a couple of questions here, the first one being that I wonder if Null Rod is really an issue in the current metagame? Like I mentioned, I've been out for a while, and it saw hardly any play a couple of years ago. While admittedly worthwhile to take into account potential hosers, I'm not sure the deck is as of yet played enough to assume people will board specifically against it.

    The second question being that, if you're afraid of Null Rod, how does cutting artifact lands for mana artifacts really help? This seems to be a logical non sequitur.

    The third question regards you mentioning multiple Wastelands being a beating. Do you not feel that playing more non-Wastelable lands (i.e. Darksteel Citadel, basics) and Crucibles would help remedy this better, while opening up to Null Rod to a lesser extent?

    I never had a problem reaching Metalcraft with Mox Opal after turn 2
    Seeing your list, this actually makes more sense. Although I'm not sure if after turn 2 it's still as worthwhile, but it would appear to have something to do with you running 3 SDT, along with 4 Petals. Moar cheap artifacts == Moar metalcraft.

    I just rely on the early-game explosiveness followed by sphere/lock effects to win the game right away, kinda like a combo deck. The strategy is great against Fair, slower control decks and fast combo decks. I do admit that its a dog to permission and I try to ride it out with Welder everytime.
    My problem with this plan is that, unlike a combo deck, you're still going to be spending the next 3/4-ish turns turning dudes sideways. This seems to leave you open to removal and/or just winning, while you're sitting there on an underdeveloped manabase.

    You say yourself that permission is a problem and that you have to rely on Welder to stabilize. This does not seem like a reliable plan, seeing how vulnerable our favorite 1/1 Goblin is to just about everything in the format.

    These two-offs.

    I know its contradictory to what I said earlier but let me explain.

    The primary role of both Wurmcoil and Hellkite is being that robot that could lay down the beating by turn 2-3. The utility that comes with it is just cake. Actually, it all depends on how you want your beater. Having them on a 2/2 or a 2/3 split doesn't mean you're gonna rely toolboxing them. Its just a variation of beaters that does the same thing.
    I'm afraid to say that I just cannot agree with this line of reasoning. Specifically, the bolded parts.

    You're really running a full playset of primary beaters that *snip* have different attachments to them.
    This. Don't underplay that fact, as one of those abilities is bound to be theoretically better than the other. You might argue that which one is better will depend on your metagame, and I would agree with that. That still does not warrant running a 2/2 config in my opinion. If anything, it warrants a careful metagame analysis and then running the full 4 of whichever comes out on top.

    Lacking a specific metagame to tweak for, I'd argue we want to pick the one whose abilities synergize better with the deck's overall strategy and other permission. My reasoning then leads me to conclude that Hellkite does this better.

    As for Crucible, you are right that they can serve as a fodder in multiples. Its just that I rarely rely on them to do what they're supposed to do. Hell, I've actually cut them off my list as they don't help with what I want to do with the deck, which is lay down an early threat by either mana-flooding the board by the early turns and protect that threat (with either Welder, Sphere/Lock Effects or simply with another beater).
    Having now seen your list, this also seems to make sense. Seeing how you've cut a lot of artifact lands for mana artifacts, Crucible is bound to become a lot less useful. I'm still not sure if that is the way to go, but that is another point altogether.

    I think I am doing Mindslaver wrong actually. I try to make it work in the early game where its supposed to be for the mid/late game. Then again, I am going out of my comfort style. If it works for you, I will not make you stop. After all the point of this thread is to improve the deck based on what meta you have as well as your playstyle.
    Well, yes. Personally, I feel the Slaver is just too powerful not to run, for reasons mentioned earlier. But I agree that it could be playstyle dependent.

    Actually, the only reason I play it is because of Null Rod and Humilty which stops Hellkite. Though I think it doesn't really help because that also stops Forgemaster :(.
    There is just about nothing in the colors we're playing that I can think of that would beat those two cards. If I'm not mistaken however, Batterskull would actually work under both, and could be Forgemastered up in response to either. The Spine can not, obviously.

    Still, I don't mind that pinpoint removal it provides if needed.
    I agree, but would you not prefer sweepers?

    I was thinking of it as a catch all removal instead of Spine. But then the 'random' clause of it is too much to ignore. It is also the reason why I am still iffy with Gamble

    Then again, it does deserve testing. Maybe its the hidden gem this deck needs.
    Perhaps. It still seems rather 'eh' to me. Let me know if it turns out to work for you though.

    Also, to add to Wasteland, ever considered running Ghost Quarter? I have pulled off Strip Mines off of that card as a lot of decks run 1-3 basics. I remember playing a game against a control deck. He fetched up an Island in fear of Wasteland and when I Ghost Quartered his land, he simply cant didn't have that second basic land.
    I have, and used to run it as a 1-off in my old AngelStax of days gone past. However, I think that running Sundering Titan should already take care of this aspect of opposing manabases. If I'm going to be running more utility lands, I'd probably run Buried Ruin, Dust Bowl, Hall of the Bandit Lord or Barbarian Ring before thinking of Ghost Quarter.

    Ghost Quarter can also act as a pseudo-fetchland if you need that red mana source instead of that Ancient Tomb.
    Well, yes, but.. Eh.

    One last note on your list, it looks like you are running 61 cards. Is this correct?


    Regarding Reforge the Soul.. The immediate discard is actually an effect that Memory Jar doesn't have, I think this makes it better (although in almost every other respect, the Jar > Reforge).
    If you're going to be dropping Forgemaster, do you feel that it would still be worth it to keep it's targets in?
    I'm also going to test it for a bit, but have as of yet no idea what I'm going to cut for it.

  10. #50

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    does running chrome mox in combination with these miracle spells make sense here?

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I've been testing this deck a lot lately with my brother. I opted for mono Brown, no forgemasters, and more maindeck lock components. This is what I'm working so far:

    Maindeck (60):

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Crystal Vein
    4 Wasteland
    3 Rishadan Port
    4 Darksteel Citadel

    4 Grim Monolith
    3 Mox Opal
    2 Mox Diamond

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere

    4 Metalworker

    2 Lightning Greaves
    1 Batterskull

    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Wurmcoil Engine
    2 Phyrexian Metamorph
    2 Steel Hellkite

    2 Karn Silver Golem

    1 Staff of Domination

    Choices:

    Rishadan Port: Basically can help turn my extra lands, which in any drawn out game you are probably going to have, into more psuedo lock pieces.

    Chalice/Trinisphere: Kinda bomb to unload turn 1 and pass against the format.

    Batterskull: Acting as Wurmcoil #5 with the ability to turn anyone into a win con

    Karn: In theory he has been useful really only a handful of time, but running spine of ish shah as a one of removal with no way to tutor it seems far worse off than powering out this guy who at least offers a bit of card advantage every turn and can remove multiple targets on his own.

    Staff of Domination: Most underwhelming card in the list so far

    I'm not sold on any particular sideboard yet, right now I'm toying with this transformational sideboard:

    Sideboard (15):

    2 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Ghost Quarter
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Lightning Greaves
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

    Crucible and Land: Help blow out control and other decks with exploitable bases.

    Revoker: I love him personally, but I'm not sold on his position here in the board. I had them maindeck for a while there, and kind of liked them. He might not have a big enough impact to the decks strategy when you stand him next to beef like lodestone golem.

    Forgemaster + Blightsteel: Just seems kind of fun to bust out against certain decks, and works around obnoxious lifegain strats.

    Welcome to any and all feedback.


    For reference I did test the blue splash. Academy ruins was champ there, but it was a turn to slow, and still it outshined what most of the draw spells did. FoF was amazing, but just way too costly to power out. Thoughtcast took its spot after that, and proved equally unimpressive. I didn't test thirst or fabricate, and master transmuter seems really cool but slow. At the very worst show and tell could be a sideboard option. Or you could just run a show and tell variant of the deck using that and forgemaster to power out fatties.
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  12. #52
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ACME_Myst View Post
    While I'm not really out to argue for the sake of argueing, I do feel that a careful analysis of the various arguments and lines of reasoning could help improve both the deck and our (my) understanding of it in general. I too feel that Welder, and Looting to a lesser extent, are overall too powerful to warrant going monobrown. I do not, however, feel this in itself invalidates the argument for attempting to build a more stable manabase.
    So, I hope you don't mind if I'm going to at least spend one more post on this topic.
    Its cool. Independent testing is better than lets just follow whatever the next guy said. More options makes the deck better.

    It follows that my list only runs 1 manasource more than yours, counting Crucible of Worlds, which is debatable but let's keep it there for now. My point being that the before mentioned threat dilution doesn't sound like a valid argument for running less lands if you need to compensate through Petals and Opals.
    I guess I did overlook the numbers. I guess the Crucible configuration is just better for later game where as the Petal configuration is better for pumping that early Welder+Looting or Metalworker.


    [quote]I have a couple of questions here, the first one being that I wonder if Null Rod is really an issue in the current metagame? Like I mentioned, I've been out for a while, and it saw hardly any play a couple of years ago. While admittedly worthwhile to take into account potential hosers, I'm not sure the deck is as of yet played enough to assume people will board specifically against it.[quote]

    At the local store it is as I know two guys that have them on the SB since outside of this deck, it is also effective against AnT (their Moxes), Thopters (shuts down Thopter Foundry and SDT) and some Reanimator hate (one of them runs Reanimator). That's why I have been paranoid of them.

    Also if the deck does ever come out of the shadows, it will be easily hated with the mentioned card and to some extent Stony Silence

    The second question being that, if you're afraid of Null Rod, how does cutting artifact lands for mana artifacts really help? This seems to be a logical non sequitur.
    If you're referring to the Petals, Petals can come out of turn one, where you can get Welder/Metalworker going (and hoping that you can get Metalworker active on your turn two before Null Rod comes down on their turn 2, given that you're on the play).

    Though with 8 Sol-Lands, its not hard to hardcast Wurmcoils (or Hellkites).

    The third question regards you mentioning multiple Wastelands being a beating. Do you not feel that playing more non-Wastelable lands (i.e. Darksteel Citadel, basics) and Crucibles would help remedy this better, while opening up to Null Rod to a lesser extent?
    Crucible helps (it also turns your Wasteland manabase into a inevitable softlock) but at the cost of slowing the deck. I personally think that having that early board presence is the way to go but like what I said, its better to have that independent testing.

    And I want to talk about my configuration later, concerning Miracle Wheel.



    Seeing your list, this actually makes more sense. Although I'm not sure if after turn 2 it's still as worthwhile, but it would appear to have something to do with you running 3 SDT, along with 4 Petals. Moar cheap artifacts == Moar metalcraft.
    Yup

    My problem with this plan is that, unlike a combo deck, you're still going to be spending the next 3/4-ish turns turning dudes sideways. This seems to leave you open to removal and/or just winning, while you're sitting there on an underdeveloped manabase.
    That's why my playstyle is have that beater and and try to protect it with either Welder, Tangle Wire or Sphere/lock effects.

    and to some extent:

    I'm afraid to say that I just cannot agree with this line of reasoning. Specifically, the bolded parts.
    This is why I run Wurmcoil over Hellkite. While Hellkite is leagues better in controlling the board, it cannot protect itself against removal. On the other hand, Wurmcoil will replace itself on the face of a board sweeper or removal. Worst case scenario, it will get StPed or PtE but at the exchange of 6 life (which can buy you enough Ancient Tomb activations or time or that extra land you need to push for)

    You say yourself that permission is a problem and that you have to rely on Welder to stabilize. This does not seem like a reliable plan, seeing how vulnerable our favorite 1/1 Goblin is to just about everything in the format.
    I see what you're saying. But if you overwhelm your opponent with Welder and Metalworker, you can hope that they will have a harder decision tree. I try to protect Welder with either Lightning Greaves, Metamorph (making another Welder) or just have a better creature on the field that will force the opponent to deal with the said better creature than Welder (and hope that Welder can negate it).



    [quote]This. Don't underplay that fact, as one of those abilities is bound to be theoretically better than the other. You might argue that which one is better will depend on your metagame, and I would agree with that. That still does not warrant running a 2/2 config in my opinion. If anything, it warrants a careful metagame analysis and then running the full 4 of whichever comes out on top.[quote]

    It all depends on what gameplan you want to do. I think Hellkite is great at the mid-late game while Wurmcoil is on the early-mid. Like what I said above.

    Lacking a specific metagame to tweak for, I'd argue we want to pick the one whose abilities synergize better with the deck's overall strategy and other permission. My reasoning then leads me to conclude that Hellkite does this better.
    I believe on your philosophy, it is better since you want to have something going mid-late game.

    Having now seen your list, this also seems to make sense. Seeing how you've cut a lot of artifact lands for mana artifacts, Crucible is bound to become a lot less useful. I'm still not sure if that is the way to go, but that is another point altogether.
    The deck is not a DtB. We are not trying to protect the deck against a plethora of hate. We are still trying to make sure we can consistently win. I catching the local meta with their pants down is the way to go.

    Right now I am striving for a faster deck because:

    1) So many fair (but preys on blue decks) deck are being played. I am looking at Maverick, and to some extent Deadguy and other aggro decks.

    2) Decks that prey with the decks above such as Storm-based combo and non-interactive decks.

    This deck has game against the archetypes mentioned above. While the MUD (Welder Variant) is a dog to blue, here's the chance to take advantage while its not there. Let the mice party while the cat is gone right?

    Well, yes. Personally, I feel the Slaver is just too powerful not to run, for reasons mentioned earlier. But I agree that it could be playstyle dependent.
    With Reforge the Soul, I might reconsider this. I have been goldfishing with that and I think Slaver can shine here.

    There is just about nothing in the colors we're playing that I can think of that would beat those two cards. If I'm not mistaken however, Batterskull would actually work under both, and could be Forgemastered up in response to either. The Spine can not, obviously.
    I don't get your point behind Batterskull. Your robots can still attack yes. The only think that affects Batterskull is the ability to "fuse" with other robots, or to be able to return it back to your hand.

    Perhaps. It still seems rather 'eh' to me. Let me know if it turns out to work for you though.
    Chaos Warp is 'eh' but we grab whatever answer we can provide right? Like what I said, still testing. But after Miracle Wheel, I think that changes it all.


    I have, and used to run it as a 1-off in my old AngelStax of days gone past. However, I think that running Sundering Titan should already take care of this aspect of opposing manabases. If I'm going to be running more utility lands, I'd probably run Buried Ruin, Dust Bowl, Hall of the Bandit Lord or Barbarian Ring before thinking of Ghost Quarter.
    Ghost Quarter provides more than just an answer to pesky lands. Sundering Titan doesn't deal with those and sometimes Wasteland aint enough.

    Also, like what I said, its a pseudo-fetchland or just a shuffle effect if i really need it with SDT


    One last note on your list, it looks like you are running 61 cards. Is this correct?
    Yes, though I have been playing around with cutting a single Greaves to keep it on 60. Having 61 isn't really an issue for me though.


    [quote]Regarding Reforge the Soul.. The immediate discard is actually an effect that Memory Jar doesn't have, I think this makes it better (although in almost every other respect, the Jar > Reforge).[quote]

    Yup, Though the end of turn discard is a good and bad thing. Its a bad thing because it doesn't really give you more options to Weld back but its a good thing since you can't really cast everything (unless you run Petals and other cheap acceleration)

    If you're going to be dropping Forgemaster, do you feel that it would still be worth it to keep it's targets in?
    I'm also going to test it for a bit, but have as of yet no idea what I'm going to cut for it.
    I still think that miser Sundering Titan (or maybe 2) is a beating. With Reforge also refilling your opponent's hand, Mindslaver isn't such a bad idea after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by dillonkbase View Post
    does running chrome mox in combination with these miracle spells make sense here?
    No because even with Miracle Wheel, you are only running 11-12 colored spells. Having Chrome Mox is as bad as having Mox Diamond with 15-18 lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by noobslayer View Post

    Rishadan Port: Basically can help turn my extra lands, which in any drawn out game you are probably going to have, into more psuedo lock pieces.
    For the longest time, I have been running Rishadan Port (the recent change with Ghost Quarter was recent, though under the Stompy version, Ports are better). I see nothing wrong with this. Its a great compliment with Wasteland.

    Chalice/Trinisphere: Kinda bomb to unload turn 1 and pass against the format.
    Against Tempo and Storm-based combo, its a beating.

    Also keep in mind, the only way Canadian (and the rest of the blue-based Tempo decks out there) can deal with them is Force of Will (or Daze/Spell Pierce if you're on the play)

    Batterskull: Acting as Wurmcoil #5 with the ability to turn anyone into a win con
    I can see this in a deck that doesn't run Welder. Welder is great in returning robots back. Stompy versions has a conditional one (Buried Ruin).

    Karn: In theory he has been useful really only a handful of time, but running spine of ish shah as a one of removal with no way to tutor it seems far worse off than powering out this guy who at least offers a bit of card advantage every turn and can remove multiple targets on his own.
    He can also win you games where Spine can't. If I can only easily cheat this guy onto the field, I would run it in place of Spine.

    Staff of Domination: Most underwhelming card in the list so far
    Everyone on this thread has concluded that Staff is a win more card. You can only pull out wins from nowhere if you have a at least 3 artifacts in your hand on top of an active Metalworker. After turn 3, this doesn't happen often.

    [quote]I'm not sold on any particular sideboard yet, right now I'm toying with this transformational sideboard:

    Sideboard (15):

    2 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Ghost Quarter
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Lightning Greaves
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster[quote]

    What makes it transformational?

    [quote]Crucible and Land: Help blow out control and other decks with exploitable bases.[quote]

    Why not have this main? Cut Staff for maindeck Crucible. Since Stompy version aim for the midrange game, Crucible is awesome here.

    Revoker: I love him personally, but I'm not sold on his position here in the board. I had them maindeck for a while there, and kind of liked them. He might not have a big enough impact to the decks strategy when you stand him next to beef like lodestone golem.
    I find that theyre only good against Storm-based combo and Maverick to an extent (shutting down Qasali Pridemages and Knight of the Reliquary is key). Hence coming from the sideboard is fine. Its not like the meta is overrun with Vial-based strategies.

    Forgemaster + Blightsteel: Just seems kind of fun to bust out against certain decks, and works around obnoxious lifegain strats.
    Having to pull this off is never a dull moment. You should try doing this:

    Achievement Unlocked: Double Kill (Kill an opponent with normal damage and another means outside of normal damage)

    For reference I did test the blue splash. Academy ruins was champ there, but it was a turn to slow, and still it outshined what most of the draw spells did. FoF was amazing, but just way too costly to power out. Thoughtcast took its spot after that, and proved equally unimpressive. I didn't test thirst or fabricate, and master transmuter seems really cool but slow. At the very worst show and tell could be a sideboard option. Or you could just run a show and tell variant of the deck using that and forgemaster to power out fatties.
    Yes, I've also given up hope with the blue version. The deck already has Buried Ruin so no need for Ruins. As for draw, just lock your opponent out.

    I learned from Vintage players that having draw spells in Vintage MUD isn't the way to go. Also from the Vintage MUD Primer from The Mana Drain:

    Don't let yourself become a victim of good intentions with poor understanding


    AS FOR THE MIRACLE WHEEL.

    Yes, I have temporarily cut Forgemaster from my list and replace it with Miracle Wheel. I suggest for those who run the Welder version to at least try playtesting with the list on the opening post and replace Forgemaster with Miracle Wheel.

    With my limited testing, its just too effin good.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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  13. #53

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Goblin Welder
    Blood Moon
    Reforge the soul
    Faithless Looting
    Phyrexian Metamorph

    can all support chrome mox and all are pretty good

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Watching the SCG coverage, I noticed a mud player packing some number of copper gnomes in his deck. I can see a good reason for this, as it has a possibility of turning any in-hand artifact into a 6 mana un-counterable spell. Has anyone else tested it?
    Can't spell slaughter without laughter.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by slaughtercult View Post
    Watching the SCG coverage, I noticed a mud player packing some number of copper gnomes in his deck. I can see a good reason for this, as it has a possibility of turning any in-hand artifact into a 6 mana un-counterable spell. Has anyone else tested it?
    I have tested it before but have ultimately cut them for Tangle Wire. If you have an active Welder, you can turn them into a 4 mana 'cheat a robot into play'.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I'd love to see what the other splashes can offer. Blue and Red have mostly been exhausted, even if we could do a much more thorough exploration in to their potential I believe. White definitely offers some goodies with Ethersworn Cannonist and Armageddon, both of which are cheap cards great for this sort of deck, and can be powered out with relative ease. I'm not sure what black and green have, I haven't looked too much into all this yet, but what have other people brainstormed but never really put on paper as far as other colors go?
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by noobslayer View Post
    I'd love to see what the other splashes can offer. Blue and Red have mostly been exhausted, even if we could do a much more thorough exploration in to their potential I believe. White definitely offers some goodies with Ethersworn Cannonist and Armageddon, both of which are cheap cards great for this sort of deck, and can be powered out with relative ease. I'm not sure what black and green have, I haven't looked too much into all this yet, but what have other people brainstormed but never really put on paper as far as other colors go?
    carson has splashed black for hand disruption and was thinking of abusing either Nether Void or Abyss (essentially going Staxx-like). You can also try to abuse Heartless Summoning to accelerate robots.

    As for white splash, I believe you're better off doing Armageddon Stax. Though there was already a thread under New and Developing that somehow resembles a white-splashed MUD.

    As for green, I have tried running Summoning Trap, along with Gaea's Cradle. I can't remember who but someone here at the Source have suggested Sylvan Library on that build for better top decking.

    Eventually I stuck with red because of the protection Welder provides along with its synergy with Faithless Looting (and Gamble if you want to run it)
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I think Show and Tell is pound for pound the best card the deck can get from Blue. Run a dual splash with Red? Just focus on cheating things via metalworker, goblin welder, show and tell, kuldotha forgemaster? Granted the deck loses its focus in that it can't reliably place down as many lock pieces as it would like while keeping up with its huge monster threats, but in a meta with lighter creature removal you could probably get away with it.

    EDIT:

    I was trying to brainstorm a list and about three minutes in realized it would be an entirely different deck concept. In order to make the redundancy of the combo engine to power out fatties worth it, you would have to have so many in the list because the deck lacks traditional hand refinement and pre combo tutors to get a lot of it set up. Granted once it gets going it kind of locks as scary as reanimator, just in different ways. It's optimal threat suite is much more different, but it can keep going and going thru awesome recursion tricks.
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  19. #59
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by noobslayer View Post
    I think Show and Tell is pound for pound the best card the deck can get from Blue. Run a dual splash with Red? Just focus on cheating things via metalworker, goblin welder, show and tell, kuldotha forgemaster? Granted the deck loses its focus in that it can't reliably place down as many lock pieces as it would like while keeping up with its huge monster threats, but in a meta with lighter creature removal you could probably get away with it.

    EDIT:

    I was trying to brainstorm a list and about three minutes in realized it would be an entirely different deck concept. In order to make the redundancy of the combo engine to power out fatties worth it, you would have to have so many in the list because the deck lacks traditional hand refinement and pre combo tutors to get a lot of it set up. Granted once it gets going it kind of locks as scary as reanimator, just in different ways. It's optimal threat suite is much more different, but it can keep going and going thru awesome recursion tricks.
    Copper Gnomes might be very good in a Show & Tell List.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Alright, let's change te topic for a bit.

    Has anyone seen this land out of AVR:

    Cavern of Souls

    Land (rough translation)

    As ~ choose a creature type.

    Tap: Add 1 mana to your mana pool

    Tap: Add a mana of any color to your mana pool. Only spend this on creatures you've chosen for ~. That spell cannot be countered.
    With this, we can actually put Goblin Welder in Stompy builds without the fear of Chalice at one countering it.

    Granted, Faithless Looting and SDT will not be as effective but there is Miracle Wheel and another gift from Avacyn herself (though this one is not confirmed):

    ~

    Instant.

    Discard your hand, Draw two cards.

    Let the discussion begin...
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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