@noobslayer
Check out my Godo build from a few posts ago. The manabase has been excellent for me.
Have you ever felt inclined to fit in Cavern or Port in that mana base?
-Steve
Originally Posted by Pinder
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Cavern is in there. I've considered Port, we need to make sure we have enough red sources for Godo though, so I don't see it in this particular version.
Frankly, I've been thinking CoV owns the format for the last 6 months: it singlehandley shuts so many decks (burn, UR Delver, combo, RUG just for naming a few), and it helps against many others, that is too powerfull to pass it by.
I'm not too excited about Moon efects though, since they are mostly effective against decks which we are already good against and we suffer the effect too.
While Metalworker + 6 or more CC drops are tempting I definitely disagree on building a deck based on this strategy because is too fragile. I think (and I'm sure there are many others) that is better to have some 4 or 5 CC drops that can be easily played with lands while our disruption is still effective, instead of having them clogged in our hands.
The definition of MUD, at least in my thoughts, is of a deck that plays mid range threats during the early game while delaying opponent's early game to the mid game.
Dedicating on the big threats (like Forgemaster comboesque builds) may be not effective due to the efficient removals of the format, whilst focusing on disruption can leave us without a quick way to win the game because we cannot produce a lock, but a disruption that can be overcome simply by a constant land drop.
I believe the key is to hamper our opponent's progression (be it on board or hand) WHILE dropping a clock to win the game before he can recover.
Having this in mind I think the core of the deck is
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 lodestone golem
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
This is the backbone, the cards that will always be in every Legacy list since they provide acceleration, disruption and threat. All the rest are cards we have to add in order to reach 60 count; so, in order to still be effective, we are bound to add some other form of acceleration (like metaworker, thran dynamo or moxes), disruption (like rishadan ports, trinisphere, revoker or crucible for wastelock) and threat (godo, steel hellkite, wurmcoil... basically the more efficient the better).
Right now my build is the following and, although I think is far from perfect, it may be a starting point.
MAIN
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
3 mountain
2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 metalworker
3 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
3 godo, bandit warlord
1 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
SIDE
3 phyrexian revoker
2 duplicant
2 cursed totem
2 karn liberated
1 sword of light and shadow
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
1 trinisphere
Greetings
Agree on the core...
However
Trinisphere and Lodestone aren't the best playmates any thoughts on using tanglewire and welder instead?
also
Masticore and Godo are poor targets for metamorph, godo being legendary and masticore being hard to maintain, thoughts on using hellkite or wurmcoil instead? Or replacing metamorph?
Separately, I have found that mox's (diamond and opal) are fine mana sources if you top out at 6 mana (particularly if you need red for godo) and so the motivation for running thran dynamo should be Karn Liberated, and other larger spells. Have others found this to be the case? How have you decided whether to run Opals, Diamonds, or Dynamo's and in what proportions.
Coalition Relic is another alternative to Thran Dynamo, makes up to 2 mana instead of 3 and makes colored mana, making it good for the red builds.
Is true that Lodestone and Trini aren't synergic, but they work well even alone: I think about trinisphere as golem 5-7 for cards with CC between 0-2.
I think that Tanglewire is definitely viable but needs a build to exploit it fully. First things that come into mind are: rishadan port, goblin welder, prototype portal, mishra helix. However I didn't tested tanglewire (I don't have much time), so if someone can post his own experiences I'd be grateful.
Goblin welder I have tested though, and I have to say that I don't feel it's necessary anymore:
- if it's used to cheat big threats into play the main enablers (faithless looting or sensei's divining top + reforge the soul) are blocked by Chalice of the Void, and I advise against not playing the latter
- if it's used as a way to beat permission Cavern of souls does it better now
True. But while I've never copied Godo or Masticore, it never happened that I had metamorph in hand without any good target to copy. In my mind Phyrexian Metamorph is important because it's a 3CC threat that keep smooth the mana curve: I don't want my hand to be clogged by 6CC drops, I want something that I can play early without acceleration. Moreover it can be used to kill opposing legend which, right now, is very good. Plus copying an early golem it's almost always GG.also
Masticore and Godo are poor targets for metamorph, godo being legendary and masticore being hard to maintain, thoughts on using hellkite or wurmcoil instead? Or replacing metamorph?
Masticore is something that I'm testing and, while it's very good against creature decks, it' almost ever the first thing I side out in the other matches. In fact it would be great to find another 4 or 5CC drop to test in its place: any suggestion?
With all the positive feedback that's receiving in the forum, I wanted to test Godo (since I already played a couple of batterskull) which, of course, takes the spot of wurmcoil. Unfortunately I haven't draw him too mcuh and I still don't have understood if it's better than wurmcoil, so I added the third and the Sofi in the main and I'll keep testing. Your observation regarding the metamorph could be correct but I still don't have the basis to answer right now
I cannot explain well my motivations because it's more of a feeling: I need Moxes for Red, but also to accelerate into Cov or Trini (in this way I consider them like sol-land number 9-10), so since I don't play artifact lands or 1 drops Opal are out of question for me. Moreover I don't want to draw too many Diamonds because of the card disadvantage.Separately, I have found that mox's (diamond and opal) are fine mana sources if you top out at 6 mana (particularly if you need red for godo) and so the motivation for running thran dynamo should be Karn Liberated, and other larger spells. Have others found this to be the case? How have you decided whether to run Opals, Diamonds, or Dynamo's and in what proportions.
3 Metalworker because I don't want to relay too much on them
3 Dynamo: I added the third recently with the third Godo, since I thought that with another 6CC drop I would have needed more acceleration.
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
4 mountain
2 mox opal
4 grim monolith
3 thran dynamo
2 voltaic key
3 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 chalice of the void
3 metalworker
4 etched champion
4 lodestone golem
3 godo, bandit warlord
3 steel hellkite
2 phyrexian revoker
2 phyrexian metamorph
I'm trying to smooth the whole thing out. Going to test opals to get a few lands out and but still keep the drop. With the removal of a Godo and Hellkite I also thought it worked out well cause it allowed me to drop a Dynamo. Cleared on Batterskull for the time being as well, as it becomes very mana intensive to protect, and I'd rather keep what little tempo we have by applying more pressure. Still looking to keep revoker in the main, this may change depending on how well metamorph plays. His ability to act as legendary removal is huge for me, as well as his ability to turn an ok board position into a very strong board position.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Might think about replacing a mountain or two with darksteel citadel if you only need to fuel the 3 godo. More artifact land powers up opal easier.
How is everyone doing with this deck.
I am still running red (Goblin Welder instead of Godo) but Welder is now in the side. My main is currently mono-brown featuring Chalices and Revokers.
Post-board, I do the Welder instead since this is when your opponent overloads on artifact hate. If caught by surprise, your opponent's artifact hate actually gets negated by Welder.
How is everything doing with the Godo builds?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
(nameless_one) which match ups are overloading on artifact hate? Are you anticipating cards like Creeping Corrosion, or just mass amounts of Shatter effects? Which sideboarded spot removal cards are you seeing?
I was browsing the Omniscience threads, as I haven't yet tested against that deck. They have two separate plans (Emrakul/Griselbrand and Petals of Insight storm), so what is the game plan? Metamorph and Duplicant are less effective because if they drop Omniscience your clone is useless. I feel like dropping Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere or Ensnaring Bridge (or hopefully something better that can stop both an attack and Griselbrand's ability), and then having them Show and Tell into the second piece seems optimal, as I don't see anything in their sideboard that can stop this at the moment. Perhaps Spine could work, as it covers both of their options? What are you Kudoltha MUD players doing?
Finally getting used to the Thresh match up, still have to get better at the Stoneblade match up (still feels like 30/70 to me, haha). Thinking about running more Karns to help that. Also debating between Thirst for Knowledge and Thoughtcast.
What do Kudoltha MUD sideboards look like?
Spine is the best Show & Tell answer, as it destroys all the relevant Show & Tell plans, and in the exact speed you want it to be. Against Griselbrand, they might still draw cards, but it does kill Omniscience before they can play any of their relevant spells.
West side
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My Godo list hasn't changed much from a few posts ago. The maindeck is identical still and I've only made a few tweaks to the board depending on my expected meta. The deck is still running VERY well.
Also as Koby pointed out, Spine is by far the best card against Show and Tell for those having problems with that matchup.
How many Spines do you recommend in a list of 75?
In a Forgemaster list you can get away with 1 in the maindeck then a couple more post-board.
I'm currently developing/focusing on Godo and I'm playing 3 in the board right now.
Current mono-brown MUD Forgemaster list:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Serum Powder
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Duplicant
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Karn, Silver Golem
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Null Brooch
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
I'm testing Serum Powder to add some consistency.
Phyrexian Metamorph is a good all-around answer for Legendary creatures. It can copy a Lodestone Golem for a fast start. Also good to tutor with Kuldotha to copy Myr Battlesphere to make lots of tokens and attack for lethal.
In my SB, Null Brooch is a tutor target against UW Miracles, Bridge / Spine of Ish Sah are good against Sneak & Show. Contagion Engine is great against aggro / tribal.
Karn is nice against decks with 0-mana artifacts, as well as Equipment (use it on Equipments during Declare Blockers step to unequip them).
Against Omniscience decks, I think Trinisphere is the way to go. This way, they are only left with one option: Show and Tell>Emrakul. Emrakul is easier to deal with from Ensaring Bridge to Phyrexian Metamorph.
I think the key against Stoneblade is Chalice at one. It shuts down Brainstorm, their removal and discard. Sure they can play a fast Stoneforge>Batterskull, but you also play a fast Wurmcoil Engine (with Cavern of Souls to force it).
I <3 Metamorph in this deck.
How is Null Brooch? I've never really tested it but is it effective?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
What are we trying to counter with Null Brooch? Is it worth dedicating that many resources to stop a spell? Supreme Verdict is also seeing play I believe.
Serum Powder seems better on paper than it can be in real life. Card draw could add to consistency, and is good for early, middle and late game. I'd be terrible to top deck a Serum Powder any time during the game I think.
Edit:
I posted this after I saw your post, (nameless_one). Does Trinisphere make post-Omniscience spells cost? Likewise, does Lodestone Golem or Thorn of Amethyst +
, or does Omniscience cancel that cost?
Can't recall the +I posted this after I saw your post, (nameless_one). Does Trinisphere make post-Omniscience spells cost
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
What are we trying to counter with Null Brooch? Is it worth dedicating that many resources to stop a spell? Supreme Verdict is also seeing play I believe.
Serum Powder seems better on paper than it can be in real life. Card draw could add to consistency, and is good for early, middle and late game. I'd be terrible to top deck a Serum Powder any time during the game I think.
Edit:
I posted this after I saw your post, (nameless_one). Does Trinisphere make post-Omniscience spells cost
I'm still testing Null Brooch, and it might be a bad idea... But I side it in against UW Miracle to counter Terminus... We often end up in topdeck mode anyway, so it's okay to discard our hand :) But I guess it would be better in a version with more Voltaic Key, to counter Multiple spells a turn.
Serum Powder replaces Mox Diamond / Mana acceleration, which also sucks to topdeck in the late game :)
Trinisphere indeed makes post-Omniscience cost 3. Lodestone and Thorn make them cost 1 (or more if you have multiple in play). More info at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...nd-tax-effects
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