[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[(nameless one)]

The reason why you want to add Deserted Temple is because you want to abuse Cloudposts. Without them, you don't really need Deserted Temple.

Now with that list, I'd go back with Wasteland and Crucible of Worlds.

[kingtk3]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 Deserted Temple
4 Rishadan Port

4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Icy Manipulator
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karn, Silver Golem

3 All is Dust

Lots of Redundancy in terms of Ramp and Denial of Resources with Manlands and Karnifacts as win cons. How does this look now?

I second (nameless one) on the waste + crucible, and I would also love to see smokestack in here (synergy with crucible and can make use of extra crucible/trinisphere). I think I'd go for
-3 all is dust
-3 basalth monolith
-4 icy manipulator
-3 voltaic key (without the basalth is good only with grim monolith and conflicts with chalice @1 which is almost ever your best and first play)
-3 deserted temple
+4 smokestack
+3 crucible of worlds
+4 wasteland
+3 mox diamond (good with crucible and to accelerate a turn 1 lock piece)
+1 city of traitors
+1 karn/lodestone

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Ok . . . Just found some sweet Stax tech with Crucible out.

Glimmerpost looping should shutdown aggro right? Especially combined with stax tech?

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Vesuva
3 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

Essentially play prison until I can set Stax to 1, eat my prison effects as well as any board posisition they might have, then beatdown! Or, if I can't exactly go straight for eating my prison effects, then GlimmerStax loop will set me ahead in life totals.

[kingtk3]

An engine of Glimmerpost-Vesuva-Crucible of worlds-Smokestack is intriguing: while kind of slow to setup may have its merits. Can you do some test and share the results with us?

My concerns are that crucible and trini are useless in multiples and can lead to awkward hands. Also, you basically have no outs to first turn delver on the draw.

EDIT: ... unless you get the Glimmerposts going obviously ;)

[(nameless one)]

I know this discussion is going cyclical but with Glimmerpost and Vesuva, Cloudpost is a fit right?

It ramps you up. I don't see any problems with that.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I need to build the deck first been working on Nic Fit and MUD seemed like a good analog to that archetype. Though as soon as I get the Tabby for it, I can start on MUD.

Speaking of Delver, what are MUDs matchups like?

EDIT: I see a few problems with CP but it might fit in over City (don"t feel that card fits right in a prison shell)

[kingtk3]

@(nameless one): with a curve that tops at 5 I don't feel that cloudpost is necessary in EpicLevelCommoner's shell, especially since in a prison shell you need acceleration and the loculi come in to play tapped. It might find home in a big robot build (similar to the eldrazi ramp deck) less centered on prison elements, where the ramp is more needed. Some food for thoughts? ;)

@EpicLevelCommoner: it depends. I prefer the stompy version and this is my latest list (though is some month old)

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
3 mountain

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 metalworker
3 thran dynamo

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
3 godo, bandit warlord
1 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite

SIDE
3 phyrexian revoker
2 duplicant
2 cursed totem
2 karn liberated
1 sword of light and shadow
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
1 trinisphere

I can shoot delver with razormane or equipped sword, I can even block it with hellikte, but most of the time I ignore it and try to be faster which, with all the acceleration and life gain, is quite possible: this deck can make a turn 2 wurmcoil or batterskull or, even better, uncounterable godo into batterskull. Those are certanly very good hands, but even a turn 2 lodestone can make it there if backupped by trinisphere or chalice.

[(nameless one)]

I need to build the deck first been working on Nic Fit and MUD seemed like a good analog to that archetype. Though as soon as I get the Tabby for it, I can start on MUD.

Speaking of Delver, what are MUDs matchups like?

EDIT: I see a few problems with CP but it might fit in over City (don"t feel that card fits right in a prison shell)

Against U/R Delver, once you get Chalice at one + other resistors going, they're gonna have a hard time.

Against Canadian Thresh (RUG), the same thing. This deck usually sides in Ancient Grudge so do not overextend.

Against Team America (BUG), it's tricky since they have Abrupt Decay. I would usually fast aggro against this deck instead if playing conservatively.

Don't be afraid to use your Wastelands to slow them down.

A resolved Wurmcoil Engine will give these decks a hard time. While Batterskull is also good against the first two.


EDIT:
I wonder if the person in the feature match (9-3) record posts here.

[kingtk3]

Don't ask me why but I thought EpicLevelCommoner mean how to fare a turn 1 delver... O_o

I agree with (nameless_one), more in general you win if you limit the Delver player to 0 or 1 spell per turn: those decks play cheap spells to manipulate the library and create strong board presence while countering the opponent's spells. If they can't do both their strategy falls apart, so your best friends are trinisphere and chalice

[dillonkbase]

On the cloudpost/glimerpost list I think if your headed that dirrection, even if the spells are a little different you should check out the turbo eldrazi thread. Their mana base it set up similarly, but they add crop rotation (and candelabra) and do not play crucible. Rotation into glimerpost, tabernacle, and bajuka? bog seems pretty cool and anhiliator is probably better than stax.

[dillonkbase]

Any thoughts on the use of the grove/fires combo in the SB of Godo MUD, particularly against decks you are sideboarding magus of the moon out against.

[kingofethanol]

Didn't know the Godo build was gaining so much steam.

Punishing Fires doesn't seem to fit well. Playing Metalworker is like playing Force, you need a critical mass of artifacts and blue spells respectively to make them optimal. The point of playing the most explosive mana dork in the game is so you can out class your opponents creatures and completely bypass removal. Playing Grove also means 4x less of a land you care about more, whether it be Port, Cavern, or even your basic Mountain.

I played a few games against BUG and in the few games I played it looks all right for us. Its disruption package is nothing compared to the RUG counterpart. Chalice does less in this match up as it doesn't blank the removal we care about, but this makes Greaves a better card. The only thing we fear is Hymn, but that is the "dies to StP" argument in deck form. In game two Chalices come out and Spellskites come in.

For those rocking the "mono" brown version, I have felt very good about 3-4 Thirst for Knowledge/Thoughtcast. Not only does it feed Metalworker by replacing itself with artifacts it also lets us see two to three turns worth of cards, which is huge. I have kept greedy hands of Mox Diamond+City into Trinisphere and dug myself out with a ToK on the following turn.

[bruizar]

Didn't know the Godo build was gaining so much steam.

Punishing Fires doesn't seem to fit well. Playing Metalworker is like playing Force, you need a critical mass of artifacts and blue spells respectively to make them optimal. The point of playing the most explosive mana dork in the game is so you can out class your opponents creatures and completely bypass removal. Playing Grove also means 4x less of a land you care about more, whether it be Port, Cavern, or even your basic Mountain.

I played a few games against BUG and in the few games I played it looks all right for us. Its disruption package is nothing compared to the RUG counterpart. Chalice does less in this match up as it doesn't blank the removal we care about, but this makes Greaves a better card. The only thing we fear is Hymn, but that is the "dies to StP" argument in deck form. In game two Chalices come out and Spellskites come in.

For those rocking the "mono" brown version, I have felt very good about 3-4 Thirst for Knowledge/Thoughtcast. Not only does it feed Metalworker by replacing itself with artifacts it also lets us see two to three turns worth of cards, which is huge. I have kept greedy hands of Mox Diamond+City into Trinisphere and dug myself out with a ToK on the following turn.

To be honest, I'm not running Metalworker at the moment in my Godo build. The reason for this is because keepable hands have a clear strategy. If not, I mulligan. If that strategy involves resolving and tapping Metalworker, that means I have a good shot at losing the game if Metalworker is answered. The problem is, Metalworker is very easy to answer in a format with force of will, swords to plowshares, lightning bolt and abrupt decay. There is just too much hate for me to want to run Metalworker. Thran Dynamo is much more resilient. I'm not saying Thran Dynamo is better, but it reduces the all-or-nothing style of the deck, which suits me better.

As for Punishing Fires + Groves of the Burnwillows, you could use that. You might even want to consider running Sylvan Library, taiga and some fetch lands if you do. It would also give you access to Ancient Grudge which can help shore up the affinity match-up.

I'm personally contemplating whether or not to try out an R/W version so I can run Rest in Peace and some other white sideboard cards (and/or Thalia & Stoneforge Mystic), but I'm not sure if I want to do that yet.

[(nameless one)]

I think one of the flaws of piloting this deck is relying on Metalworker to win.

Metalworker shouldn't be needed to win a game. That said I think it's also not ideal not to run Metalworker. Metalworker wins games.

I think the balance the deck should tackle is that the deck should be able to abuse Metalworker when you have it and not to lose the game when it gets removed. The way I see it, Metalworker is to MUD as Goblin Lackey/Lord of Altantis/Mother of Runes/Heritage Druid to their respective decks. They will win you games if your opponent doesn't deal with them.

[bruizar]

Hall of the bandit lord fixes the problemnbut it costs a lot ofmlife.


Edit: im intrigued by the splash for punishing fires. kessig wolf run and sylvan library can be very strong for this deck.

[noobslayer]

There were some mono brown lists using Hall of the Bandit lord, and had Platinum Emperion to stem the life loss and shore up certain match ups. In conjunction with Cavern you can get a lot of power out of your plays.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

What are matchups like in general between combo aggro and control?

[kingtk3]

What are matchups like in general between combo aggro and control?

Based on my stompy-prison build:

Combo

Storm decks: we have plenty of disruption, but you have play a turn 1 or 2 lock piece, otherwise you have to mull. Trinisphere is quite brutal. ANT and TES can win on turn 1 though, so there's a chance that you'll never get a turn to play. Board in some rachet bomb for the goblin tokens since it's sure the opponent will try to go fast in order to avoid our disruption and the EtW route is the fastest to play. In my opinion a very good matchup.

Show and Tell: this combo is less susciptable to our disruption because the card itself dodges both trinisphere and chalice. Those decks, however, rely on heavy cantripping in order to assemble the combo (which may be 2 or 3 cards), so an early trini or chalice@1 can slow or stop their search engine, giving us time to finish with robots. Post side spine of ish-sash guaranties that show and tell doesn't give our opponent an advantage. Good matchup.

other combo: depends on the specific, but in general combo decks are full of low casting cost can we can capitalize on with our disruption, so the matchups are good in general.


Control

U based control decks: the printing of cavern of souls has been a huge improvement, since we can now play our bombs without fear of counterspells. Due to brainstorm/swords reliance this matchup is favorable thanks to cavern, godo and chalice. Post side karn liberated and eventually ratchet bomb (for angel or spirit tokens) can easily dominate the board. Favorable matchup.

B based control decks: whether they are hand disruption+ramp (nic fit) or hand disruption+land destruction (pox) these decks are bad news. Particularly nic fit also has artifact destruction main deck (pulses, abrupt decays and deeds). Negative matchup.

Maverick: though not a control deck, I put this here because their plan against us is to play the control part (remove our treats via swords or qasali, then win at their pace). This is a grind matchup, but if you manage to resolve a karn you're in great shape. Even.


Aggro & Tempo

Burn (R or UR): chalice@1 basically counters their whole deck, plus trini, lodestone or batterskull: you basically have to be carefull to price of progress, otherwise this matchup is very good.

RUG: they play only 18 lands, all non basics. Trinisphere + wasteland can lock out of the game and chalice @1 shuts their whole deck save for 8 cards. Cavern of souls is the tits when thei can't say "No" to your golem. Beware of ancient grudge post side because that card is very stong against us. Good matchup.

Merfolk: they play vials, but we have batterskull, hellkite, razormane, wurmcoil... we can handle that. Good matchup.


Decks I need to play more against: jund (i suspect it would be even at best...), BUG (i think the lesser discard they play, the better is for us), goblin.

So, why not playing this deck if it has so many favorable matchup? Because the worst matchup is the deck itself. We don't have deck manipulation or card advantage, we are full of expensive spells, we cannot control the stack and we lack in removal: this means that you have to carefully understand when to mulligan (first thing EVER), and you have to foresee the gamestate three turns in advance in order to understand if an hand is keepable or not. In some sense this deck is like a combo: you have to foresee if you can achieve board supremacy (instead of winning like for a combo) in the first 3 turns, otherwise you're dead most of the times.

[noobslayer]

I'm having trouble deciding which build right now is the stronger of the two. I'm still testing my own build with blue, and it's had a lot of interesting merits, but just not the overall "umph" I get with the other two.

GodoFires is truly explosive, and also nets access to the moon effects, and it's two bombs are quite game changing. It's mana base feels less stable overall, but it can throw in a lot of hurt.

Mono Brown Forgeless is more stable overall, and can grind games longer I feel. It's got less mana issues and more utility, but I feel it doesn't get to the throat as violently.

[dillonkbase]

I'm having trouble deciding which build right now is the stronger of the two. I'm still testing my own build with blue, and it's had a lot of interesting merits, but just not the overall "umph" I get with the other two.

GodoFires is truly explosive, and also nets access to the moon effects, and it's two bombs are quite game changing. It's mana base feels less stable overall, but it can throw in a lot of hurt.

Mono Brown Forgeless is more stable overall, and can grind games longer I feel. It's got less mana issues and more utility, but I feel it doesn't get to the throat as violently.

I haven't played the monobrown list for some time, however, I have found Godo to be quite consistent when the curve and mana base is respected.