Isn't Daretti better than Mindless Automation?
About draws we have Coercive Portal, Bottled Cloister, Staff of Nin and Grafted Skullcap, but have anyone ever tried Outpost Siege? It have the drawback of not helping to combo with metalworker + staff but it is immune to Vendilion Clique on the upkeep.
Staff of Nin (outside of Staff of Domination) is probably the best choice, although 6 mana is a bit to much. The Staff can actually do something useful outside of drawing only.Originally Posted by Silverflame
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I agree. It's a bit of a meta call, but I ran two Staff of Nins for awhile because the value is helpful, and it can apply pressure. *And it's a card you want in multiples.*
For the most part though, I'd say Ugin does it all now.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
That's not what I experienced. Game 1 artifact removal is rare anyway. I don't remember it was blown up ever game 1. Second game you have to be a little more careful, but still it rarely gets destroyed. I've even had several players against me who choose the chalice instead of botteld cloister as removal target since it hurts them much more.
And yes it's great against discard and Abrupt Decay can't touch Cloister
That's not what I experienced. Game 1 artifact removal is rare anyway. I don't remember it was blown up ever game 1. Second game you have to be a little more careful, but still it rarely gets destroyed. I've even had several players against me who choose the chalice instead of botteld cloister as removal target since it hurts them much more.
And yes it's great against discard and Abrupt Decay can't touch Cloister
ehm how can destroying your entire hand be worse then taking out a lonely chalice? you were playing canadian trash or what its called or something?
things that leave you without a hand: Karn (cloudpost) will of council white vindicate (death and taxes) qasali pridemage (zoo) tin street holligan (goblins) reclamation sage (elfs ) Not even discussing all other destroy permanent or blow things up cards or return to hand things out there!
These arent THAT rarely seen to gamble your entire hand- there are other card drawes for 4- wich ok, dont have a benefit against discard but overall meh.
I, obviously, disagreeCard advantage in control version is key in my opinion.
"your entire hand" is often only a few cards at max or sometimes zero. I haven't seen Zoo in meta in a long time, goblins and cloudpost somewhat but little. The other two are more present in my meta. So then it's easy, play cloister as your last card.
Anyway, cloister or Coercive Portal could be a meta call (discard v.s. removal) and list (ensnaring bridge or not) but sufficient card advantage is needed in the control version, I think.
I have no clue what you mean with control version, do you have a list of your deck? If it doesnt contain tangle wire i will not take it seriousI, obviously, disagree
"your entire hand" is often only a few cards at max or sometimes zero. I haven't seen Zoo in meta in a long time, goblins and cloudpost somewhat but little. The other two are more present in my meta. So then it's easy, play cloister as your last card.
Anyway, cloister or Coercive Portal could be a meta call (discard v.s. removal) and list (ensnaring bridge or not) but sufficient card advantage is needed in the control version, I think.
I like the suggestions for playing with Mindless Automaton
Qasali goes in any deck with GW including Maverick, Loam, Bant anything. It's not just zoo, even though, truth it is the deck is nearly gone.
Where you being sarcastic?
Although i strongly agree with Bottled Cloister being tricky and unnecessary. There are better options. Even Sensei's Divining Top being one.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Bottled Cloister is played as a one, maybe two-of in some MUD sideboards. It really should only come in against mid-range and dedicated control decks where you'd want to refill your hand after having your initial onslaught countered or disrupted. The cards people have mentioned like Tin-Street Hooligan and Qasali Pridemage are one-of corner-case scenarios at best.
You should never bring a card like Cloister in against those archetypes, as your threats are pound for pound far more terrifying and game-swinging than theirs. This is turn would magnetize hate from an opponent looking to stabilize by destroying your threats first and foremost as opposed to a Cloister - which even under the circumstances you do bring it in against those aggro decks - should likely be sequenced lastly, anyhow.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 02-26-2015 at 03:52 PM.
Hey all,
I'm brand new to both the deck and to Legacy after being a long-time Modern and Standard person. I don't know what the local meta here in Chicago is like, so I can't make too many sideboard calls right now, but here's what I've settled on deck-wise that I'll be running next week:
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Liberated
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
Seems pretty standard. I was trying to fit in a second Lightning Greaves since being able to use Metalworker/Forgemaster the turn they come into play always seems great, but I don't know what to cut out. I've seen a lot of people sticking Spine in their sideboards, but especially not knowing what my meta is, having that as the only non-Karn way to deal with something like Ensnaring Bridge seems pretty safe.
Daretti needs coloured mana symbols to be cast which means playing Great Furnace, and Mountains
instead of playing Cavern of Souls, and Great Furnace , which isn't enough to cast Daretti
It's a lot weaker than playing Goblin Welder
and Welder already gives much of the card advantage against control that you'd want anyway
If you play Mindless Automaton , he's also a threat on the battlefield by himself
instead of cutting Cavern, you get to play that, plus card draw, plus something that enables Welder early in the game besides just getting things back that your opponent has Force'd . Automaton can grow to be a 4/4 easily which is relevant against Delver, and he still gets two cards back that you discarded to do it.
the only relevant targets now for Welder without an enabler are non-creature spells because of Swords
like i said before :
Mindless Automaton against Delver -- 6 mana investment for a 4/4 that reads "When they swords him, draw two cards for your 2 discarded cards"
Against Batterskull -- 7-8 mana investment, Pitch 3-4 cards to it, draw 3 cards if they try to ice him. He'll at least stall for you until you get Ugin, or Forgemaster, onto the battlefield. If they ice him, you've drawn 3 cards into your deck for 0 cost
I used to play Su-Chi a lot online and it was always considered a must-answer because it didn't die to Lightning Bolt . He was good to swing with along with Lodestone Golem he was basically Lodestone number 5 or 5-6 .
like, yes Mindless Automaton dies to bolt, but he'll cantrip for you anyway, already when he enters he has 2 counters and for 0 will draw a card. but my point is even Su-Chi is considered a must-answer in Legacy all your opponent will have against it is Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, or a Batterskull. Su-Chi is way better than people think. Ugin's Construct is kind of insane .
I've played Su-Chi with Lodestone IRL sometimes too and it is kind of ridiculous . You don't need to wait to hardcast Wurmcoil after Wasteland , he hits the table fast, and then you have 8-9 damage on the field with two dudes.
//
INSTRUCTIONS -- FOR BR00TAL GAMES -- ALWAYS:
4 SU-CHI
4 LODESTONE GOLEM
4 UGIN'S CONSTRUCT
4 TANGLE WIRE
4 TRINISPHERE
4 GOBLIN WELDER
4 CAVERN OF SOULS
You will win games simply by playing uncounterable guys and a tangle wire with weird interactions and random big swings with trinisphere and welder
That was how I played one night locally I had 4-4 split of Lodestone and Su-Chi with Tangle Wire, i don't remember what else in the deck but before they had cloudposts, and I went 4-0 simply because i played them two at a time
Fun interaction discovered,
was playing against Painter/Stone
Mindless Automaton, after being Grindstone'd, pay 1 discard Blightsteel, unable to get deck'd
I have a Lightning Greaves attached to it, my opponent is tapped out, and I'm about to cast Spine on Jaya
they had Sword of Light and Shadow so I lost anyway . still kind of cool. not a good matchup considering they also have Welder
@troll,
How in GArfields name are 4 mana 4/4s or 4/5s without ANY extra benefits any good in legacy?
Sun-Chi could be fun when equipped with nim-deathmantle (6/6 intimidate wich cannot die). Otherwise its a waste of deckspace.
I don't play Tangle Wire so I guess you won't take it seriousI have no clue what you mean with control version, do you have a list of your deck? If it doesnt contain tangle wire i will not take it seriousIt works pretty well though
4 Metalworker
2 Steel Hellkite
3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Powder Keg
1 Steel Hellkite
Before Ugin entered our world, I played 4 Karn, 4 Steel Hellkite.
Artifact superfriends!I don't play Tangle Wire so I guess you won't take it serious
4 Metalworker
2 Steel Hellkite
3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Powder Keg
1 Steel Hellkite
Before Ugin entered our world, I played 4 Karn, 4 Steel Hellkite.
I support the ratchetbombs main: they buy time to drop your bombs.
Just like tangle wire buys time..
I think i would go 4 ugin 2 karn, karn is a win condition while karn is not Always.
Also you want your spells to go trough when you drop your bombs. That why id run 4 triniqphere because it makes counters useless.
If you play this deck a lot you should know the difference between a 4-drop and a 6-drop . Totally different ballgame. the Wurmcoil was played really only because it was good against Tarmogoyf and Batterskull.. the Wurmcoil is worth cutting down to 1-2 for Ugin's Construct at least. There is no other reason to play the card because Posts gain so much life as they are.
I think Ugin's Construct might have been more playable in Legacy as a 3/6 like Jade Statue or as a 4/6 might have been too pushed . I've considered playing Jade Statue for the lower mana curve .
I think jade statue and ugin's construct are cute, but are suboptimal. you can block a tarmogoyf until they discard your ugin/karn and just run you over. If you're going to be that slow, you might as well go for Myr Incubator.
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