I think Sphinx Summomer is an essential piece it helps you find either an enabler (transmuter, metalworker) or a finisher (blightsteel) when you need it.
A lot of interesting/wierd builds going on. Not entirely sure on how powerful those decks are. My main concern is on the minor adjustments making the deck tier1. Currently the most difficult matchups for me are rug delver and bug (discard, wasteland and deeds are bad). I've mostly decided that bug is a bad matchup that has to be won with karn or a very good hand. Rug I think is beatable but very difficult. Having to play around spell pierce, fow and daze is very annoying, especially if they have a threat. On the other hand if a chalice or trinisphere resolves it seems much better. My initial plan was playing a must-counter defense grid and afterwards hopefully dropping wurmcoils and batterskulls to make it very difficult for them to win. Playing red lands and blood moons on the side also seem like a valid plan against rug and bug.
you are pretty much spot on. MUD/metalworker is an "all in" deck and that makes it really vulnerable to counterspells in general. Playing smart is very useful, but against a good player they still have the upper hand.
Yes I did test with Fabricate a bit. It was a good card, but I prefer Mechanist because it gives me a 2/2 flying body and is an engine with Transmuter, but I'm not opposed to trying to fit Fabricate back into the list again at some point.Have you also considered Fabricate? I know it's not an artifact, which makes it less flexible. But being able to fetch answers or wincons instead of the top 3 with the Mechanist could make it more of a threat.
Yea, that's always the case.But as always with this deck, 100 cards trying to fit in a 60 card deck.
Spellskite is something I was considering, but the deck only has so much room for protection, and I felt that Trinisphere was stronger overall. Spellskite is a strong card though, so at the very least, I'd run Spellskites in my sideboard to deal with decks with lots of spot removal.- Spellskite is there to protect your other artifacts from single-target removal, and as a cheap creature to sacrifice to Arcum Dagsson.
As a setup spell, I find the cost difference between 2cc and 3cc can be a big deal.- Thousand-Year Elixir is an alternative to Lightning Greaves. The problem with Greaves, is that opponents can respond to equipping by killing your threat. With Elixir, they have no window of opportunity: you can use your activated ability in response to any instant-speed removal. It also lets you untap your creatures.
I do like the idea of ignoring spot removal though, and the untap effect is awesome too. Then again, the ability to move the Greaves over to a fattie on the same turn to swing is also awesome.
I think both are solid cards.
I've never had issues with blue sources, although occasionally it can be difficult for me to hit UB. Then again, I'm running 3 more Islands than you, and 4 Mox Diamond.The big problem with the deck is to get blue mana sources. You need a lot of blue mana when you want to play a Master Transmuter and activate it twice immediately (with Thousand-Year Elixir).
The difficulty in casting Sphinx is not because it's 5cc... it's because of the UB. Also, drawing a random card off the top is incomparable to tutoring for any creature. Sphinx + Transmuter is a much stronger card advantage engine than Strix + Transmuter.Also, I think that Baleful Strix could be a nice alternaive to Sphinx Summoner. Its a lot cheaper, and lets you draw tons of cards thanks to Master Transmuter. It can also be sacrificed to Arcum Dagsson to tutor a bomb.
You're list is focused more on noncreature artifacts because of Arcum though, so Sphinx may be less useful for you than it is for me.
A lot of interesting/wierd builds going on. Not entirely sure on how powerful those decks are. My main concern is on the minor adjustments making the deck tier1. Currently the most difficult matchups for me are rug delver and bug (discard, wasteland and deeds are bad). I've mostly decided that bug is a bad matchup that has to be won with karn or a very good hand. Rug I think is beatable but very difficult. Having to play around spell pierce, fow and daze is very annoying, especially if they have a threat. On the other hand if a chalice or trinisphere resolves it seems much better. My initial plan was playing a must-counter defense grid and afterwards hopefully dropping wurmcoils and batterskulls to make it very difficult for them to win. Playing red lands and blood moons on the side also seem like a valid plan against rug and bug.I don't know about you guys, but I've been beating most blue decks. Cavern of Souls is ridiculously good, and the majority of my creatures are either Construct or Artificer. Trinisphere screws with free countermagic like Daze and Force of Will too, and is still fantastic against cheap countermagic like Spell Pierce.you are pretty much spot on. MUD/metalworker is an "all in" deck and that makes it really vulnerable to counterspells in general. Playing smart is very useful, but against a good player they still have the upper hand.
Against RUG Delver in particular, a resolved Chalice at 1 is literally gg, although Trinisphere can be a beating as well. This is one of the matchups where I wish I was running some Wastelands though, since sometimes all it takes is 1-2 Wasteland to mana/color screw them out of the game. Regardless, I've found RUG to be a good matchup.
It's the various B/G/x combinations that I've had the most trouble with, regardless of the third color, and regardless if its tempo, aggro, control, or some combination of those. I definitely think addressing those matchups with an adequate number of versatile sideboard cards is a must.
Wow. For some reason, I mixed up Sphinx Summoner and Faerie Mechanist abilities. I thought Sphinx looked at the top 3 cards... Sphinx is indeed awesome!Originally Posted by Hanni
I think it utterly sucks. with al due respect. But why in heaven sakes would you play a 5 mana 2 color creature? because a 3/3 flying so good? Well its not. We dont need 3/3 flyers.
I used to play faerie stompy about a thousand years ago. (really!) Thats why i noticed that they made a really good card for it some time ago: treasure mage. (2)(u) search for a artifact with 6 or more mana. well thats about all the big forgemaster dudes wich could eventually be cheated with transmuter. So for (2)(u)(u) you can search and find and play a fattie.
Another card wich i think needs consigering is cloud of faeries. a 1/1 flyer for (1)(u) wich untaps two lands. I used in stompy to untap a tomb and city for it; so actually it is a accelarator as wel as a chump blocker or hitter. Very good.
apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right
Have you played any tournaments with this version? I've top8 (2 finals) with the more average stompy version 5 times. I'm trying to figure out the true power level of the deck. For me it just seems too clunky to be good.
If he wanted non-basics, Darkwater Catacombs is plain better while dodging some hate (islandwalking Merfolk, Sundering Titan). That land by itself manafixes for Sphinx by itself.apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right
Did you read the text below the flying part? If it was just 5 mana for a 3/3 flier, I wouldn't be running it. And for the record, I'd much rather have a 3/3 flying body than a 5/3 body, if we're ignoring the other effects of the cards.I think it utterly sucks. with al due respect. But why in heaven sakes would you play a 5 mana 2 color creature? because a 3/3 flying so good? Well its not. We dont need 3/3 flyers.
Sure, if you already have a Transmuter on the board, you can tutor up a 6cc artifact to put on the board... but that's pretty limited in scope, don't you think? And nonartifact vanilla 2/2 bodies in a deck with no equipment doesn't make much sense to me either. Why not just run Fabricate instead?I used to play faerie stompy about a thousand years ago. (really!) Thats why i noticed that they made a really good card for it some time ago: treasure mage. (2)(u) search for a artifact with 6 or more mana. well thats about all the big forgemaster dudes wich could eventually be cheated with transmuter. So for (2)(u)(u) you can search and find and play a fattie.
I'm not sure what relevance Treasure Mage has with Forgemaster, but I digress.
Even in a situation where you can untap two Sol lands with Cloud of Faeries, that still seems extremely underwhelming. I don't know if you mistook my list as an attempt to build an artifact Faerie Stompy deck, but nonartifact 1/1 fliers with no utility in a deck with no equipment is pretty awful, especially in a list that wants lots of artifacts.Another card wich i think needs consigering is cloud of faeries. a 1/1 flyer for (1)(u) wich untaps two lands. I used in stompy to untap a tomb and city for it; so actually it is a accelarator as wel as a chump blocker or hitter. Very good.
Oh really? I guess the Vaults, Moxes, occasionally the Caverns, or ignoring the cost altogether with Transmuter, doesn't look like enough on paper. Rest assured, I'm satisfied with my color sources right now. I was running Underground Seas before, and I know that I'm already running a manabase that is vulnerable to Wastelands, but I swapped them to Islands when I originally cut down on Sphinx. The basic Islands have been a nice addition. If I go back up to 4 Sphinx, maybe I'll go back to Seas instead, but I've been able to consistently drop Sphinx as-is, so who knows.apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right
No, I have not. I haven't played in a paper magic tournament since the original GP Columbus, back in like 2007 I think. I've been playtesting the list for a while, someone asked what the list currently looked like, so I decided to share it with everyone.Have you played any tournaments with this version? I've top8 (2 finals) with the more average stompy version 5 times. I'm trying to figure out the true power level of the deck. For me it just seems too clunky to be good.
The Welder versions, Stompy versions, and Godo versions are all great versions of the deck. My list is not an attempt to discredit the other versions whatsoever. What's wrong with adding some more viable variants to this thread?
I can sympathize with the deck 'looking' clunky, but let's be honest, most MUD decks look clunky. My goal with the blue splash was to make the 'bigger bombs' plan more consistent and robust. In my list, the consistency is increased with draw (Mechanist), tutors (Sphinx), and more density of enablers (Transmuter). The deck gets its robustness from the card advantage engine (Transmuter + ETB effects). My list does retain a stompy backup plan, with 2/2 and 3/3 fliers, instead of the usual 5/3's and 6/6's. The fliers are not as aggressive, but they do push damage through against chump blockers, which is nice.
tl;dr What my version lacks in streamlined consistency compared to the Stompy versions, it makes up for with more frequently broken plays.
I can start up a thread in N&D for the blue splash if people don't feel that it is competitive enough to be discussed in this thread.
I like that you are offering many different versions of the deck; the list of possible sideboards was also great. I'm strongly considering maindecking grim poppets as it seems great against Maverick and similar creature decks. In my personal opinion I think that the list I've currently been testing (+-4-5 cards) could possibly be tweaked to tier1 depending of course on the meta. That is my main concern; especially now that we're having a national legacy championship tournament in the next month. I've played the Godo version and the Forgemaster version in multiple LGS minor tournaments (15-30 people) and personally I've felt that the stompy version (running two maindeck staff of nin and two karn+ two on side) is the strongest of the bunch.
I have read the sphinx card. And its utterly horrible- just horrible. I pointed out its a 3/3 flyer because that must be the reason your adding a 5 mana 2 color card to the deck. Because blue has litterly a zillion other cards to draw in to your pieces, cards wich are cheaper than 5 mana and dont invlove 2 colors. Its just a crazy plan in my opinion. You may think different.
treasure mage has a synergy with transmuter. For 2U you search what you want transmuter to put on the board. thats good. better then intuition wich i tought of before, plus he is a human- just as transmuter. So you could name human with cavern of souls. Being les dependasnt on blue mana sources.
Makes me want to make UR Human MUD. with godo, transmuter..
Are you basing that on theoretical opinion, or did you try using it and determined that it was utterly horrible? Between 8 Sol lands and 6 Moxes, it is not impossible for me to make 3UB on as early as turn 2 without Metalworker, and the deck can consistently hit 3UB on turns 3-4 without Metalworker. With Metalworker, sometimes the deck can not only pay the 3UB for Sphinx, it can also put the card I grabbed with Sphinx into play on the same turn. Not to mention that Transmuter can cheat Sphinx into play if I cannot hit 3UB el natural... which then of course can become a +CA engine should I need to grind things out against something like Control.I have read the sphinx card. And its utterly horrible- just horrible.
I mean sure, I could run Fabricate instead, but there's a big difference between the two. Sphinx is first and foremost an artifact, so even when it's just sitting in hand, it's making 2 mana for Metalworker. When I drop a Mechanist, it's something I can actually draw into. When it resolves, it's an artifact body I can sacrifice to Foregmaster or bounce with Transmuter. It's a 3/3 flying body that can smack the opponent in the face while I'm setting up my other engines. It's +CA on a 3/3 flying body... I hate to tell you, but there are no other artifact creatures that tutor for artifact creatures, let alone ones that tutor for ANY artifact creature. Trust me, I've looked. There are a couple of noncreature artifacts that can tutor, but they are pretty bad. The best one I've found is Skyship Weatherlight, which is worse than Sphinx.
The reason why I'm running it is multi-faceted. I'm running it because it's an artifact that tutors for any artifact creature, first and foremost, but the 3/3 flying body is icing on the cake. Instead of paying 2U for a do-nothing tutor (i.e Fabricate), I'm paying an additional 1B for a 3/3 flying artifact body attached. Sphinx itself is +CA, and this is a MUD deck, meaning I can hit 5 mana consistently. If you're trying to say that I can't hit 5 mana, and want to argue that the deck shouldn't be running 5cc creatures, then how in the hell are people dropping Godo's and Wurmcoil's for 6? If you're trying to say that paying 5 mana for a 3/3 flying body that puts any artifact creature from my library into my hand isn't worth 5 mana, then I disagree with you on that 100%... especially when Transmuter abuses ETB effects.I pointed out its a 3/3 flyer because that must be the reason your adding a 5 mana 2 color card to the deck. Because blue has litterly a zillion other cards to draw in to your pieces, cards wich are cheaper than 5 mana and dont invlove 2 colors. Its just a crazy plan in my opinion. You may think different.
However, my guess is that you are assuming that I cannot make the UB. That makes the most sense based on all of the statements you've made against Sphinx so far, considering statements like...
At this point, I'll let you assume that I have problems making colored mana, since there's no point in beating a dead horse over Sphinx when your issue is its UB cost. I'm satisfied with my color sources to the point where I'm running basic Islands instead of Underground Seas. If at some point you decide to try out the manabase, cannot reliably make colored mana, swap the Islands to Seas, and still cannot reliably make colored mana, then fine. That still wouldn't change my opinion on Sphinx, since I have not had issues with color sources, but I would at least understand why you didn't like Sphinx at that point. For now though, I feel that I have said enough regarding Sphinx.apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right
Treasure Mage is horrible. It's bad when you don't already have an enabler on the board. It's bad when you have it in your hand and wish it could make mana for Metalworker. It's bad when you see it in the top 3 for Mechanist. It's bad when you want to sac it to Forgemaster or bounce it back for +CA with Transmuter. The only time it's not bad is when you already have an enabler on the board... but what are you doing with a 2/2 nonartifact body, exactly? Chump blocking once? Why wouldn't you simply play more 6cc+ fatties instead? To toolbox? At least Fabricate can tutor for a fatty OR and enabler. Treasure Mage is horrible.treasure mage has a synergy with transmuter. For 2U you search what you want transmuter to put on the board. thats good. better then intuition wich i tought of before, plus he is a human- just as transmuter. So you could name human with cavern of souls. Being les dependasnt on blue mana sources.
Not really sure how that's going to work out for you, when Transmuter cannot cheat Godo into play because he's not an artifact, and therefore cannot abuse his ETB effect either.Makes me want to make UR Human MUD. with godo, transmuter..
Last edited by Hanni; 11-20-2012 at 09:52 PM.
Forgot to respond to this:
Grim Poppet is a solid choice, but I'm thinking it's better off as a sideboard card vs those decks. Duplicant already deals with any targetable creature, and can become a removal engine with Transmuter. It deals with Griselbrand and Emrakul too, which is nice. I'd bring Grim Poppet in against decks like Goblins and Maverick. Triskelion is also an option, since it costs 1 mana less and deals damage instead of counters (i.e can go to the dome), as well as Triskelavus, since it can make 1/1 fliers when you don't need the removal.I like that you are offering many different versions of the deck; the list of possible sideboards was also great. I'm strongly considering maindecking grim poppets as it seems great against Maverick and similar creature decks. In my personal opinion I think that the list I've currently been testing (+-4-5 cards) could possibly be tweaked to tier1 depending of course on the meta. That is my main concern; especially now that we're having a national legacy championship tournament in the next month. I've played the Godo version and the Forgemaster version in multiple LGS minor tournaments (15-30 people) and personally I've felt that the stompy version (running two maindeck staff of nin and two karn+ two on side) is the strongest of the bunch.
If anyone does end up trying out the U/b version, I'd love to hear about the results.
I tested the deck on cockatrice yesterday only 1 game didnt have a lot of time but it was nice.
First game T1 ( ancient tomb - seat - city - 2x mox daimond - transmuter - sphinx)
Ancient tomb - 2x Mox for seat+city of traitors - for transmuter
opponent drops forest - plays an elf
T2 - I draw Blightsteel colossus (nice draw :P) i play blightsteel with transmuter.
opponents scoops and leaves game.
Wil test more tonight and let you know. I havent made a sideboard yet though, I cant decide.
That's not really a fair assessment, though. You got a broken start against a relatively non-interactive deck. Had the Transmuter been countered or hit with removal, it would have been a different experience. Although, you did have Sphinx, so 1 more mana source would have gotten you right back into the game (if it resolved).I tested the deck on cockatrice yesterday only 1 game didnt have a lot of time but it was nice.
First game T1 ( ancient tomb - seat - city - 2x mox daimond - transmuter - sphinx)
Ancient tomb - 2x Mox for seat+city of traitors - for transmuter
opponent drops forest - plays an elf
T2 - I draw Blightsteel colossus (nice draw :P) i play blightsteel with transmuter.
opponents scoops and leaves game.
Wil test more tonight and let you know. I havent made a sideboard yet though, I cant decide.
Either way though, that's not too far from how alot of games turn out. Not quite as fast as 4 mana on turn 1 for turn 2 Blightsteel, but you drop an early bomb that the opponent either has to have an answer for, or you blow them out. If they do, you keep playing till you drop another bomb, rinse and repeat. And so it goes.
Please tell me that you guys are including Chalice of the Void and to some extent Spellskite to this Transmuter list.
I used to test Transmuter as well (but went back to a more traditional Welder build). My prototype only ran two but the other key card on that was Birthing Pod. Yes, Birthing Pod.
It was nice to go from Metalworker to Transmuter via Pod. Also, with Spellskite, it wasn't an issue to get Metalworker consistently. You can even Pod Transmuter into Summoner (and get Scarecrone to get a chain going)
The main problem I had with Pod was the life lost. Ancient Tomb sometimes is too much. But if you have the patience and better understanding of what's happening between you and your opponent, it can work like a dream. That built was slower too, but it was somehow more consistent. Chalice does a fine job of slowing your opponent anyways.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
U/b MasterworkerPlease tell me that you guys are including Chalice of the Void and to some extent Spellskite to this Transmuter list.
// Lands (24)
4 [MR] Island
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures (21)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
3 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
2 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
// Spells (15)
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
For my list, Spellskite is likely going to be a sideboard card for heavy spot removal decks. I feel that Trinisphere is a better disruption/protection spell in the maindeck because it deals with more than just spot removal. I would like to work on fitting in some Wastelands, though.
The weakest card in my list right now is Staff, which may end up being something else soon.
If you go back to the previous page, Birthing Pod is one of the cards listed in my sideboard (it's not really a sideboard, but a collection of ideas). That's not really the route I want to go in with my list, though.I used to test Transmuter as well (but went back to a more traditional Welder build). My prototype only ran two but the other key card on that was Birthing Pod. Yes, Birthing Pod.
EDIT: I'd like to try and continue focusing on powerful ETB effects to get the most out of Transmuter. If I do cut Staff, I am leaning towards Triskelavus as the replacement. I like that when I don't need the removal, it can still spit out 1/1 fliers every turn for value with Transmuter, it can provide reach when necessary, and it deals with multiple X/1's even without Transmuter . Unlike Triskelion or Grim Poppet, its effect costs mana... but it also has flying, a pretty consistent theme in my list, which has been great for pushing damage through. It's also a Construct, which plays nice with Cavern of Souls when hardcast or cast off of a Metalworker.
I think the mana cost is a major issue; you really need to cast it with 2-3 mana open otherwise you defeat the purpose of playing it. I liked Grim Poppet so much because it allows you to have a major impact on the board as soon as it resolves; removal is a big issue for this deck.
If this would have been Game 2/3, then it was just pity that the Sphinx wasn't a Greaves equipping the Colussus Turn 2 FTW.
Next to the FoW the Transmuter would have caught, it is not unthinkable that in the following turn the Ancient Tomb would have met Wasteland. Geting you 3 mana behind from casting the Sphinx.
About 1/3 to half of the encounters i come across run some combination of FoW and/or Wasteland. Opening Game 1 like this will be a gamble of your on the play. I feel more comfortable setting up some kind of softlock with Chalice or Trinisphere and/or protection from Greaves or Cavern of Souls first before going 'nuts'. Protecting your manabase in the first few turns is key. If your not being careful with this it could be game..
If you need it to be removal right away, I suppose. Otherwise, you can just keep it a 4/4 flier for the turn it comes into play.I think the mana cost is a major issue; you really need to cast it with 2-3 mana open otherwise you defeat the purpose of playing it. I liked Grim Poppet so much because it allows you to have a major impact on the board as soon as it resolves; removal is a big issue for this deck.
Usually though, when you cheat it off of a Transmuter for U, you have extra mana sources open to sink into it. Even off of a Metalworker, there is a good chance that the deck still has a few more mana floating that it can't do anything with.
The reason why I like it better in the maindeck is Grim Poppet is a 1/1 for 7 mana if you're opponent doesn't have any targetable creatures for it, where Triskelavus is a 4/4 flying for 7 mana. I guess that shouldn't matter since most decks run creatures, though.
In the event that it can be turned into a removal engine with Transmuter, Poppet will end up being a 4/4 once the board is clear, while Triskelavus can turn into a token engine by spamming three 1/1 flying tokens onto the board every turn with Transmuter for 3U. I may be looking at this from a danger of cool things perspective, though. I'd like to test a few games with both of them in that spot first, before coming to any conclusive decisions.
Sure, sometimes the opponent has all the answers. Force for your turn 1 bomb, Wasteland on a Sol land to set you back 2 mana. But sometimes they don't, and you end up with a turn 2 Blightsteel like he did. I agree that against an unknown opponent, he was going all in. That's really a risk vs reward decision you have to make, though. Getting a Chalice/Trini/Cavern is a nice start, but it doesn't always happen like that.If this would have been Game 2/3, then it was just pity that the Sphinx wasn't a Greaves equipping the Colussus Turn 2 FTW.
Next to the FoW the Transmuter would have caught, it is not unthinkable that in the following turn the Ancient Tomb would have met Wasteland. Geting you 3 mana behind from casting the Sphinx.
About 1/3 to half of the encounters i come across run some combination of FoW and/or Wasteland. Opening Game 1 like this will be a gamble of your on the play. I feel more comfortable setting up some kind of softlock with Chalice or Trinisphere and/or protection from Greaves or Cavern of Souls first before going 'nuts'. Protecting your manabase in the first few turns is key. If your not being careful with this it could be game..
The hand he drew was too strong to mulligan against an unknown opponent, he went for broke, and it worked for him. I think that in the same situation, I would have done the same thing. 4 mana on turn 1 for Transmuter, if it goes unanswered, is good game... he doesn't know at that point that Blighsteel is on top, but he does have a Sphinx in hand, which is almost as good. Even if Transmuter gets countered or killed at that point, he still has a chance to topdeck a land for 5 mana on turn 2 for the Sphinx. He ended up topdecking a Blightsteel instead, and if the opponent would have had a turn 2 Wasteland, he would be down to 3 mana... but even then, he still has a ton of other topdecks that can pull him out of it.
If the opponent is casting Force on turn 1 and Wasteland on turn 2, that usually means that this deck has the time to draw more bombs. The only deck in the format that can put up a fast enough clock to be able to do that, is RUG Delver. And my experiences against RUG Delver have indicated that it is a good matchup. Not great by any means, but they have been slightly in my favor.
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