[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Bobmans]

I want to start a discussion on Lodestone Golem.

Lately i have been thinking to replace 4x Lodestone Golem from the Forgemaster/welder list. It has won me some games when they hit the board in multples or when enforced with some other threat/lock. And they provided a clock. But they very easily get removed/destroyed or whatever. They seem to be one of the weakest plays in the list. I do think missing his tax effect is an issue.What would be a good replacement?

I've been thinking about a combination of the following: Batterskull, Trinisphere (although i want a creature instead), Steel Hellkite (i currently run 0, cus i rarely get his ability to trigger when i want it), Spellskite, Scarecrone, Phyrexian Metamorph, Phyrexian Juggernaut, Tangle Wire, Blood Moon, Masticore. Just some stuff i come up with. But they all have pros and cons. My First thought would be to include 3 Batterskull and the fourth Metalworker.

Here is the current list:
Mainboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Goblin Welder
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal
2 Karn Liberated
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Karn Liberated
2 All is Dust
3 Defense Grid
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Emperion

[Hanni]

I'd run the 4th Metalworker regardless. Sure he has his limitations, but Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins... and I've never seen a Goblins list with 3 Lackey's.

[Bobmans]

I'd run the 4th Metalworker regardless. Sure he has his limitations, but Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins... and I've never seen a Goblins list with 3 Lackey's.

As 3 Metalworker feels as the wrong number i never missed the fourth and the mana base in this list feels very comfotable. As this might be an odd choice, the Stompy list mostly runs 3.

Regardless of the number of Metalworkers, is Lodestone Golem still valid?

[Hanni]

Regardless of the number of Metalworkers, is Lodestone Golem still valid?

Depends on what you are going for. If you're trying to play a tempo aggro/control role, the tax can be fantastic.

In lists with no removal, a 5/3 body won't be pushing through the red zone very often.

I think the problem right now is that people just toss him into every list as a 4-of because he's an iconic creature (his ability is great), but don't really evaluate why they are doing it. There are plenty of ways to build around him, or in other words, make the most out of him. On the other hand, some lists really don't need him.

I have to go to work now, but I will add more of my opinions on this topic later.

[Bobmans]

Depends on what you are going for. If you're trying to play a tempo aggro/control role, the tax can be fantastic.
In lists with no removal, a 5/3 body won't be pushing through the red zone very often.

What i like about the list is that it can swift roles. It can perfectly change from going control to aggro to combo. I believe this flexibility makes this a very strong deck. That being said, Lodestone Golem fits both roles of control and aggro, but is rather 'light' in either. The 5/3 body is indeed not that spectecular and it ends up sitting on your board because it will catch removal when you attack with it and loose the tax effect.. On the other hand is the tax effect for 4 mana kinda expensive and more easily removed then for instance a Thorn of Amethyst.
Speaking of which, the amethyst, chalice and defense grid can be dropped turn one or even two of them in turn two while the weaker one is cast first to lure out a counter. Making those so much stronger then a Golem solely for its tax effect for 4 mana.
Of course a turn one Chalice @ 1, followed by turn 2 Golem is incredibly powerfull.

[Alex Holland]

As 3 Metalworker feels as the wrong number i never missed the fourth and the mana base in this list feels very comfotable. As this might be an odd choice, the Stompy list mostly runs 3.

Regardless of the number of Metalworkers, is Lodestone Golem still valid?

3 workers is sufficient. It works for me. I even tought about dropping him all together in one of my mud versions. Often a thran dynamo t2 or 3 is all u need for the rest of the game. Unless you really want to play staff combo of course. I say 3 is the magic number for him.

I always play lodestone. He kills decks. What so great about him is his flexibility, hes cheap gor us and is a obstacle for many combo. Plus he can hit if needed. U can always equip him with batterskull for robot style points!

[Bobmans]

equip him with batterskull for robot style points!

Thinking of this. I might just leave the Golems in and swap 4x Wurmcoil Engine for 4x Batterskull. This is harder to get rid of, although everyone has some plan against Stoneblade nowadays. Next to this the mana cost of 5 is slightly better.

Anyway, anybody else has some thoughts on the Lodestone Golem?

[Ttvetjanu]

Thinking of this. I might just leave the Golems in and swap 4x Wurmcoil Engine for 4x Batterskull. This is harder to get rid of, although everyone has some plan against Stoneblade nowadays. Next to this the mana cost of 5 is slightly better.

Anyway, anybody else has some thoughts on the Lodestone Golem?

Lodestones are awesome. I play 2 metamorphs also maindeck and there's no better feeling locking a player out with two lodestones and a well placed wasteland. I would not play the deck without 4 lodestone golems. We're too weak to storm without them as they act as a clock and lock. (yes, trinispheres and chalices are also good but no way unbeatable)

[Blommis]

I personally meant on running the poppet in the stompy build. Also, it's a 4/4 for 7 that turns into a 7/7.

Seems more like 1/1 for 7 that turns in to 4/4. Could be good against some decks, but seems a bit lackluster..

[Ttvetjanu]

Seems more like 1/1 for 7 that turns in to 4/4. Could be good against some decks, but seems a bit lackluster..

You are correct. I misread the card. Makes it much worse.

[aluisiocsantos]

Metalworker is a great pitch for FOW. It's funny because most of the time Metalworkers never show up and you win the games anyway, but he's like a great "fear of" element, I've seen people hold out counters for him and let ingame other threats, jsut in anticipation of the damage Metalworker can do, so I think that's a great asset. If he's online - It's generally a won game!

There's no reason to play less than 4 Lodestone Golems too! You can cast him turn one, then turn two, and if it gets removed, it costs just another 2 sol lands to play again! Also great pitches for FOW just so yo ucan drop that Metalworker right after.

[fogxanic]

I think lodestone golem is one of the best creature against sneak & show. If you drop early it on table and opponent doesn't have fow or his combo parts you get good advantage. Also sometimes I put it on table from show and tell and opponent puts omniscience but his manas are out so he can't cast emrakul same turn.

[Hanni]

3 workers is sufficient. It works for me. I even tought about dropping him all together in one of my mud versions. Often a thran dynamo t2 or 3 is all u need for the rest of the game. Unless you really want to play staff combo of course. I say 3 is the magic number for him.

Sufficient doesn't mean it's the best idea. Even in a stompy versions that function off of a lower curve, Metalworker still says "Tap: Drop your entire hand on the board." For an artifact deck, he is fundamentally similar to Goblin Lackey in that he does unfair things by cheating things into play faster than they would normally be able to. I'd never run less than 4 Metalworker in MUD.

Regarding Thran Dynamo... despite costing 1 more mana than Metalworker, there is also a big difference between tapping for 3 mana, and tapping for double or even triple that. Thran Dynamo is a good mana source, but it doesn't do broken things like Metalworker.

Lodestone Golem discussion

Lodestone is a great creature. His effect is mostly asymmetrical, and a 5/3 for 4 mana is cost efficient. My only concern is that people blindly toss him into every list without considering whether he's necessary, or without supporting him properly.

Grim Poppet discussion

I've actually decided that Triskelion is what I'd prefer to run. This puts both of my removal spells at the 6cc spot, which makes them easier to hardcast in the midgame, and it's a Construct for Cavern. I also like the fact that the damage can be done to players as well... which makes him a 3 turn clock with Transmuter, once the board is clear.

[kingtk3]

Regarding the discussion about Lodestone Golem: I agree with Bobmans that it may be luckster in a Forgemaster or any other combo-ish build. Let me repeat it: only in combo builds.
I want to point this out because in a stompy version Lodestone golem is the backbone of the deck: if anyone wants to delve into this I'll be happy to elaborate, otherwise I'll stick with the analisys reguarding the combo builds.

This deck wants to win fast by landing a big robot early into play and kill the opponent in one or two attacks. In order to obtain so you need a hand consisting of
- a Beef and a mean to cheat it into play
- or a Forgemaster and at least 2 other artifacts to sacrifice (thus cheap artifacts)

But you cannot play too many Beefs because otherwise they'll clog your hands, so what you realistically need is a mix of acceleration, enablers, Beefs, tutor/card selection and protection.

In this deck Lodestone golem covers the role of protection since you are not aiming to win with a 5/3 but with a Beef so big that can ignore opposing creatures: the problem is that the taxing effect alone is not enough for 4 mana. I think it would be better to play a mix of tutor/card selection and protection in order to go off more consistently.

Of course you loose the god hands of turn 1 golem or double golem on turn 2 and 3 which are almost ever a win, but you have to consider how many times you wished the golem was something to help you advancing your plan A, not a shacky plan B.

In conclusion I think that Lodestone Golem can be played in comboish builds, but it's not optimal because it doesn't advance your plan and it's not efficient as protection.
Lodestone golem shines in decks that can fully support him with cards like wasteland, rishadan ports, phyrexian metamorph, tangle wire and the likes.

[Hanni]

In conclusion I think that Lodestone Golem can be played in comboish builds, but it's not optimal because it doesn't advance your plan and it's not efficient as protection.
Lodestone golem shines in decks that can fully support him with cards like wasteland, rishadan ports, phyrexian metamorph, tangle wire and the likes.

Exactly how I feel regarding Lodestone.

I've actually decided that Triskelion is what I'd prefer to run.

Just quoting myself here.

Triskelion has been superb in testing. He's a card advantage machine against most of the format just by himself, and he's rather absurd with Transmuter. I'm loving the 1/1 split with Duplicant. I'm fairly certain that this is the maindeck removal package that I am going to stick with. In comparison to Grim Poppet, I like the cost difference of 6 vs 7, the fact that it's a Construct, and the fact that the targeted damage can go to the dome.

I'm left with 1 flex spot, which could either be Sphinx Summoner #3, singleton Staff of Domination, Myr Battlesphere #2, or whatever else. I'll toy around with some different things here.

Again, I'm still considering fitting in some Wastelands. I am also considering swapping some (or all) of the Cities for Crystal Veins.

I've also started working on an actual 15 card sideboard, which is still in development.

Once I fine-tune these last few issues some more, I'll post an updated list for my U/b Masterworker deck.

Before I go, I also wanted to mention that I've logged a ton more games in with the deck. It could just be the player quality on MWS, but I've been winning lots of games against Tier 1 and Tier 2 strategies, with very few losses. G/B/whatever decks continue to be the bane of my existence though... I've yet to win a match against a B/G/x deck. The resource denial plan slaughters me everytime. I've also run into multiple different players running both Hymn and Sinkhole now too, which is a bit unusual in regards to the current general metagame, but is seemingly popular on MWS. Meh. For right now, I'm brining in Crucibles postboard, but I'm going to try out a few other options in addition to them and see if it helps improve the matchup any. If anyone has any info to share in regards to this matchup, please do.

[noobslayer]

Staff of Nin keeps looking better and better.

[bruizar]

hanni: a Bg list would be nice too, so we can think about how to tackle that matchup.

[Hanni]

hanni: a Bg list would be nice too, so we can think about how to tackle that matchup.

I cannot give a specific list, because the lists differ so much. The only fundamental similarity between all of them is resource denial. By resource denial, I mean some amount of discard, land destruction, creature removal, and usually some amount of permanent removal (typically Abrupt Decay). I've yet to have a Deed blown up on me, but I can only imagine how brutal that would be against my 8 artifact lands and 6 Moxes.

Note: I realize the vulnerabilities I open myself up to by running 14 artifact mana sources, but it's a risk vs reward... in most matchups, the increased power and consistency is worth it.

Anyway, I basically can never get going against a G/B deck, regardless of the specific card choices. They take a key card or two I need out of my hand, Wasteland (or sometimes Sinkhole) my Sol land (with multiple LD effects being even worse), destroy my Workers/Transmuters/whatever, and then drop a Goyf, Confidant, Liliana, Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, or whatever scary threat they have (each list has been slightly different). While I'm scrambling to get the mana I need to drop stuff, they are either smacking me in the face or gaining board advantage. It doesn't help when they cast an early Hymn and run me out of gas. By the time I finally develop the mana I need and have some relevant stuff to play, it's usually too late.

I've considered several ways to try and counteract this, but the problem is that their resource denial plan comes from multiple angles. Crucible seems like the best bet for making land drops, so long as I can get to 3 mana. Spellskite is probably the best option against their removal. Witchbane Orb is too slow against discard (and I don't think Leyline of Sanctity is worth it)... but I'm thinking something like Scarecrone would be a strong card overall to bring in. There's also some artifacts that come into play with bonuses if they are discarded by the opponent (I don't have the time to list them right now, but I will later tonight or tomorrow), but that might be too narrow.

[kingofethanol]

Staff of Nin keeps looking better and better.

I've been thinking about this card. The card seems solid, but you need the deck to be as explosive as possible and make every play count. Paying would mean mid to late game, and I would imagine the deck needing a much more substantial board impact than a card like this. Tapping for one damage almost does nothing (maybe kills Lingering Souls tokens and Thalia?) and is not the kind of impact you want at this point. If you want card draw and have access to blue try Thoughtcast. It acts as a Dark Ritual with Metalworker out, digs pretty well, and has instant value (as opposed to having untap two more times).

Regarding Lodestone Golem I think it's a fantastic card. It's removed quickly because it almost always needs to be answered. It annoys the crap out of blue players. It delays Jace a turn, which is a huge deal for this deck; makes in-response-Brainstorming much weaker; makes Snapcaster incredibly hard to work with; and Force of Will is no longer free, which they will play around and give you time. The 4-turn clock it provides can steal you games. Worst case scenario, they tapped out to Bolt him? Resolve a Wurmcoil next turn and win the game. Great against Show and Tell - it dampers the 12 or so cantrips and makes it so that they can't greedily tap out while casting them (they'll want Force up against you). Show and Tell is also delayed a turn, and the turn they tap out you can safely respond with Metamorph, Karn, Spine, or just lethal.

My two cents, Batterskull is insane in this deck. It's anti-removal, Terminus, Humility, and blocks Mongoose all day. Makes a late game Metalworker worth something for those debating between running three or four. Wonder if I have room for a full set...

Edit: Has anyone tried Heartless Summoning? Just a random idea. to cast Sundering Titan seems hot. If you're luck enough you can totally be casting that turn 3.

[bruizar]

I've been contemplating Urza's Incubator as a mana accelerant. It doesn't have the card disadvantage of Semblance Anvil, but it limits the creature setup. Urza's Incubator goes well with Cavern of Souls. I'm still going back and forth choosing which creature types would work best, but some of the options are Myr, Artificer, Construct or Golem.

I don't really like Heartless Summoning for the fact that it requires a color and that it makes your dudes smaller.