Oh you are right. Then maybe Karn, Silver Golem it could hit almost same if not blocked and attacked with some mana stones. Plus bonus it kills enemys leds, petals, chalices, moxes and even gives top summoning sicknessOriginally Posted by dillonkbase
I think it would depend on your list to see if Karn (the golem) made sense, I think in some of the builds with trading post and staff of Nin he might, however, in builds like mine their are not enough targets for karn to really make sense.
Hiya,
I decided to test out the lower curve MUD at a local wednesday event going 3-0-1 beating Dreamhalls Combo(2-0), Combo Elves(2-1), U/W Miracles(2-0) and ID against UBr ANT (thou we played out first 2 games 1-1.)
List:
// Deck: Moon.Mud (60)
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Razormane Masticore
// Spells
2 Batterskull
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Karn Liberated
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Staff of Nin
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
I really love the maindeck as it is with the Chalices, Trinispheres, Maguses and Tangle Wires as control elements, Bonfires and Bombs as removal along with the Godo and small guys as a finisher.
The lower manacurve allowed me to cut down Grim Monoliths down to 3 and i never missed the fourth one and might even cut them down to 2.
Magus of the Moon really makes this deck pack an extra punch against control matches as you'll easily resolve him with Cavern of Souls.
If I'm to cut down more Monoliths i might try out 2 Koth of the Hammer in the sideboard instead Karns and likely a Spine or two against S&T decks.
Revokers propably needs more slots as the format is full of targets...
Any thoughts/questions ?
List is:
Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Buried Ruin
1x Rishadan Port
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
Creatures
4x Metalworker
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Steel Hellkite
2x Wurmcoil Engine
Other
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Thran Dynamo
3x Tangle Wire
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Karn Liberated
3x Staff of Nin
3x Voltaic Key
I think here are not enough threads but don't know yet sure because I haven't tested this build.
)
Dynamo and Staff of Nin make good animation targets, however I'm not sure if they really make Karn(golem) worth it.
First great job, I bet you could have won that last one against Ant.
I think cutting monolith can have value, although I do like having an abundance of moxes and lands...
What are your thoughts on welder without wurmcoil, its good with tanglewire but otherwise?
Did any of your Singleton critters outperform their brothers?
Is the defense grid required with Cavern? Who are the staff of Nin for? Fire and Ice vs Jitte(your thoughts)?
Thanks, but it was against a friend so we decided it was fair to not play it out :)
I never did draw the welders but i will test them again at the next tournament on sunday and i'll let you know what they did.What are your thoughts on welder without wurmcoil, its good with tanglewire but otherwise?
2 games were won by Moltensteel Dragon 1-hit after a magus+chalice/trini soft lock.Did any of your Singleton critters outperform their brothers?
Defense Grid is another soft lock that needs to be countered, othervise you'll just get buried under different lock pieces.Is the defense grid required with Cavern? Who are the staff of Nin for? Fire and Ice vs Jitte(your thoughts)?
Staff of Nin was there against U/W miracles, but it might get axed.
I did ponder the SoFaI vs Jitte before the tournament, but i didnt have Jitte so i did run the sword instead. Lousy excuse, got to get Jitte..
So if you had a jitte why would it be better? I just like it because its cheaper to cast.
Did you have enough mana to cast it vs them... did it resolve(I think the value of cavern is lost when your big drops are not critters). I think against UW, MUD is the Beatdown, and so I don't really want the game to go as long as required for staff to pay off. This is why I am testing out impending disaster, it lets the gamestate stay "young".
I worry about getting choked on lock pieces and mana sources and not being able to close out the game. Was this a problem at all?
Do you think it's better than razormane?
Also Trini and Moon seem like a little bit of a nonbo, I mean if they have the color of mana they need they probably have some mountains to pay the trini cost?
Thoughts?
Why somany one off creatures? U cant tutor so its kinda senseless.
I would drop welder and the mox diamonds. I have a similar list wich i posted some time ago, only difference is i play 4 batterskull. Because hes perfectly casteble for 5 mana and because of godo ofcourse. Jitte is nice too. I would add thran dynamo because its just more reliable then dynamo. + karn liberated; he can get rid of things u now cant handle, like a moat or something. I love magus of the moon + he adds a nice combo with moltensteel dragon as a finisher. Speaking about finishers; why not adding one more bonfire? Its crazy if you play hin with metalworker in play just burning whole armies!
Diamond lets you drop more turn one chalices and magus/trinisphere.
As for more Bonfire, when your in topdeck mode you probably don't have a hand to power metalworker, so that's a little bit of a nonbo, if its your turn two metalworker, then you only can really power the bonfire turn 3, otherwise you would probably drop the artifacts....right? And if that's the case do you really need to bonfire turn 3(do you hit the maximum critters then)?
However at the end of the day this list isn't playing the worker(a nonbo with diamond) so I think it makes sense...
I do think that getting ride of some of the 1 off's does make sense, just have to figure out which ones.(but you play singletons when you are running a new deck to see what works)
Not really a nonbo...if you're in topdeck mode with MUD, you should have plenty of mana available to Bonfire for a bunch.
What? Metalworker is so broken. Without that card the deck is actually just Affinity.
Just glazing though most of these messages, it seems like we all have different lists that do well in different metagames and against opponents with different skill levels. For example, I believe Miracles is a match up in our favor. I crush all Miracles players, but when I played against the guy who got second at SCG Dallas I got destroyed. Perfect demonstration of the importance of analyzing what is being played and who is good at playing what they play.
Most of the cards being discussed are playable, just tune your deck to best fit your meta. Some card choices are obviously right (like Metalworker) or wrong, but we can still have plenty of options. Due to the nature of the cards we are trying to abuse, deck tuning becomes much more important to us than other decks that have access to card selection. Come here with questions and suggestions, we're here to simplify the tuning process.
About every list:
Mox diamond- to do or not to do? He adds acceleration t1. But he costs you a card. Arent the sol lands enough to drop t1 monolith or chalice? Im hesitant to trade in more cards for mana, already play 3 monoliths and dynamos.
For godo: flowstone dragon yes or no? It has nice evasion but do we really need it or could we just add more protection swords? Sure lodestone isnt pumpable but does it matter? When i have him chalice and magus they will just die slowely right?
Mox Diamond can:
-make a "land" that is invulnerable to Wasteland
-increase the chances of makingon turn one
-filter color
-do wonders with Crucible
-help you play around City's drawback
-feed Metalworker when none of the above are being applied
I think it's a great card if your deck runs a healthy amount of lands. The card it cost you was going to be played anyway. Not necessary if you think your mana base is stable enough. If you want to try it throw two or three in your deck and see how you like the extra bonus (or drawback).
I don't know what Flowstone Dragon is.
Flowstone = moltensteel. Im on my cellphone so accidents happen.
Mox Diamond is just a really bad card. I used to always play mox diamond but then i found out the reason why i was losing was because of mox diamond. Mox Diamond forces you to run crucible of worlds which forces you to run wasteland. Thats a lot of design decisions that are already made. But thats not even the big problem. The problem is that you need the landsin play, not in your graveyard. The card disadvantage and the horrible top deck makes the card a big trap.
Jitte might do more in random metagame than SoFaI, thou both act as removal and speed up the clock. I might test both of them same time.So if you had a jitte why would it be better? I just like it because its cheaper to cast.
After some thinking process I actually did cut Staff of Nin's in favor of Koth of the Hammers, which should bring more value to more matchups especially when i got bridges on side against spaghetti monsters.Did you have enough mana to cast it vs them... did it resolve(I think the value of cavern is lost when your big drops are not critters). I think against UW, MUD is the Beatdown, and so I don't really want the game to go as long as required for staff to pay off. This is why I am testing out impending disaster, it lets the game state stay "young".
Impending Disaster sounds really insane, got to test that out, nice find !
There were never overabundance of lock pieces, and 16 creatures seemed to be good number of possible finishers.I worry about getting choked on lock pieces and mana sources and not being able to close out the game. Was this a problem at all?
Moltensteel Dragon serves a different purpose, Razormane acts like The Abyss against certain decks, Dragon just alpha strikes unprepared/locked out players.Do you think it's better than razormane?
Magus of the Moon is here to punish greedy mana bases, trini is to punish tempo decks. If i got both in play that means they either cant play spells at all, are locked out of splashed colors or are just casting 1 lousy spell a turn. I cannot see how this is a Nonbo, its not like im show and telling a phage the untouchable in to play.Also Trini and Moon seem like a little bit of a nonbo, I mean if they have the color of mana they need they probably have some mountains to pay the trini cost?
Like someone stated, when testing out a new version of a deck, you really want to test different creatures to see how they perform. Can't really trust in other testing data from others when the deck is so much different..Why somany one off creatures? U cant tutor so its kinda senseless.
This is why i never will cut down moxes below 3.Diamond lets you drop more turn one chalices and magus/trinisphere.
I used to play Imperial Painter for 2 years before this deck and there was nothing more devastating than constantly dropping one of eight Moon effects turn 1, so why not steal some wins with it ?
Except affinity doesn't really play any disruptionWhat? Metalworker is so broken. Without that card the deck is actually just Affinity.
Anyway, changed the deck previously posted with:
-2 Goblin welder
+1 Karn Silver Golem
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB:
-2 Staff of Nin
-2 Karn Liberated
+2 Koth of the Hammer
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
Koth's and Bridges mainly come against S&T decks. The numbers might still be off, but got to test before i can prove anything.
Karn silver golem looks good on paper; massive blocker and applies secondary beats by animating
Trinispheres and Tangle Wires.
Hope I answered all the questions directed to me and thank you for the replies, hope I didn't hit anyone's nerves
Ps. Next tourney on sunday so I'll propably ragepost on how the deck bricked on me multiple times on monday.
My only comment is that although on paper Karning with wire may seem good, its often tapped due to its ability(which is why its a 3 for 10)... so carn an wire may not have the mojo you expect.
I'm going to try impending disasters tomorrow; I'll try 3. The red deck with 4 magus of the moons seems very strong. A uncounterable blood moon straight up wins games. Being able to lock the game with trinisphere/impending disaster is sick. Out of the bat I can't thing of a matchup that is straight up bad for this deck. Probably show/tell variants; I'm siding in 3 ensnaring bridges against them. Trinisphere is decent against the omniscience/dream halls version. I'll try a couple crucibles.
On Mox Diamond discussion: I wouldn't play the deck without the diamonds. The speed it gives is very very useful.
Zealous Conscripts is another cool human with one red in its cost. Only problem is that there isnt often something worth stealing.. nah, metamorph is better i think..
Karn liberated? is a MUST PLAY.
how u gonna win against a moat? tell me. Not. Im tired right now but i bet there are many permanents that need removal if you want to win. Karn liberated is the answer. And a win condition by itself. Not running it is foolish. Unless you play welder and can do spine of ish shah tricks....
Also been thinking about stoneforge.. Why not make MUD equipment.dec?
Should look something like this:
3 ethersworn cannonist (a human thats kind for artifacts!)
3 stoneforge (equipment, humans are small u know)
4 magus of the moon (mr. no u dont)
4 godo ( the batterskull dropping human)
Then throw in some equipments, 4 batterskull (hes also good hardcastable), 1 sofai, 1 solas.
Of course some more annoyers; 4 chalice 4 lodestone golem
Protection: 2 bonfire, 2 karn liberated.
+ some mana 8 sol lands. maybe metaklworker... a karakas?
hmm just red is probaly better but it always fun to study.
This is my godo build for those interested:
4#Ancient Tomb
4#City of Traitors
4#Cavern of Souls
4#Great Furnace
5#Mountain
4#Lodestone Golem
4#Chalice of the Void
3#Magus of the Moon
3#Wurmcoil Engine
4#Godo, Bandit Warlord
4#Batterskull
1#Sword of Fire and Ice
1#Sword of Light and Shadow
2#Bonfire of the Damned
2#Karn Liberated
4#Grim Monolith
4#Thran Dynamo
3#Metalworker
I kinda like the white choices, but stoneforge just seems weak; very hard to activate with the manabase. Canonist belongs more in sideboard. I think if you're going white you should also be going more towards armageddon stax.
Zelaous seems very good in the sideboard against certain matchups. Koth wins thru moat. This next decklist has much less mana acceleration and more locks; running Koth seems unreasonable. Not even sure what sort of deck this is. Probably not MUD anymore. Blummis needs to invent a name (Brown moon?)
My current decklist:
4x Cavern, Wasteland, Both sol lands and
5x Mountain
3x Mox Diamond
3x Grim Monolith
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Godo
2x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Duplicant
1x Steel Hellkite
4x Trinisphere
3x Tangle Wire
2x Impending Disaster
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Crucible of worlds
SB:
3x Chalice of the void (certain matchups)
3x Ensnaring Bridge (show tell, animator)
2x Koth of the hammer (controls (e.g. moat etc, also with bridge)
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Flex spots
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
